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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,09:54) Hi tow,
There is a call you should hear
if the music was not so loud
Abandon ship.
I believe suicide bombers are convinced of this before commiting murder, too. It is illegal (and unethical) to shout 'fire' in a theatre when there is no fire. 'The end' has been predicted countless times by christians, and yet here we still are. Is it not ridiculous to make yet another false prediction of doom?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,12:42) Hi Stu,
Is that water lapping around your ankles or what?
Do your spiritual glasses have things painted on the inside?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,12:55) Hi stu,
Glasses?
Yes, the ones that give you your spiritual vision of things that I cannot see (sorry, crossed threads, I think). Can you see water lapping round my ankles? That is in the eye of the beholder, and we have established that the things you 'see', that I supposedly don't, cannot be demonstrated to be true. So, what water?Stuart
People with strong faith don't need “glasses” to see the truth. All they need is intellect and a strong resolve to believe in the truth.
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 09 2008,20:01) People with strong faith don't need “glasses” to see the truth. All they need is intellect and a strong resolve to believe in the truth.
Not according to Nick. He says you need to be slow and blind. Seriously.Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 10 2008,13:01) People with strong faith don't need “glasses” to see the truth. All they need is intellect and a strong resolve to believe in the truth.
I think a strong resolve despite reality is probably the main requirement.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 09 2008,13:35) If the state says killing is wrong and brings a charge of murder against an accused, a death sentence would only show that killing is a way of solving a problem, or hypocritically that killing is right.
This is also true for parents who tell their children not to hit and then, in turn, give them a spanking for hitting another child.At any rate, I've never understood how killing in the bible is OK. I hear folks say that God is just. But he has also ordered the deaths of many. We are forbidden to kill, but God can. Jesus also tells us to turn our cheeks and take it, but when the children were disobedient out in the desert – God smoked them out; women and children too, just like that. Jesus tells us to turn our cheeks while his Father showed no such compassion. God did not turn his cheek – he killed people outright. Anyone – tell me how this makes sense?
God is love. But when you love someone you don't kill them – even if they disobey you, or hurt you in a profound way. If God is indeed love, then how can killing have any part in who God is and what God does?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:04) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 09 2008,13:35) If the state says killing is wrong and brings a charge of murder against an accused, a death sentence would only show that killing is a way of solving a problem, or hypocritically that killing is right.
This is also true for parents who tell their children not to hit and then, in turn, give them a spanking for hitting another child.At any rate, I've never understood how killing in the bible is OK. I hear folks say that God is just. But he has also ordered the deaths of many. We are forbidden to kill, but God can. Jesus also tells us to turn our cheeks and take it, but when the children were disobedient out in the desert – God smoked them out; women and children too, just like that. Jesus tells us to turn our cheeks while his Father showed no such compassion. God did not turn his cheek – he killed people outright. Anyone – tell me how this makes sense?
God is love. But when you love someone you don't kill them – even if they disobey you, or hurt you in a profound way. If God is indeed love, then how can killing have any part in who God is and what God does?
If the OT is not a divinely dictated confession then you can read it as a political-fictional history of some kind in which killing is attributed to god by leaders who were looking to make military or other advances. Have you ever heard of an army whose leaders said “Good luck in the battle today chaps. I think we have the superior numbers and firepower but just be careful because god is on their side”?History is written by those who win and god will have therefore been credited with a lot of smiting as a result. Are there fewer such problems in the New Testament?
I confess that being a christian apologist is not something I am very experienced at!
Stuart
Perhaps YHWH knew exactly what was required to turn a nation from the course it was on (which would have lead to a calamity far greater than it suffered in it's rebuke) to a course that would see it arrive safely in the land it was promised. Perhaps the deaths of many of this nations enemies was the only way to preserve the genetic line that the Messiah was predicted to come from. The Messiah that would offer eternal life to the whole world. Big stakes.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:28) Perhaps YHWH knew exactly what was required to turn a nation from the course it was on (which would have lead to a calamity far greater than it suffered in it's rebuke) to a course that would see it arrive safely in the land it was promised. Perhaps the deaths of many of this nations enemies was the only way to preserve the genetic line that the Messiah was predicted to come from. The Messiah that would offer eternal life to the whole world. Big stakes.
But we are told not to kill. We are told that God is love. We are told to turn the other cheek.We are not told that killing is OK if it serves an ultimate positve end. But this must be alright for God? The messages are a bit mixed, don't you think? It's truly hard to justify.
It's not quite that straight forward Mandy. Capital punishment was actually mandated from YHWH for various breaches of the mossiac law (see previous post on pg 17). To not kill someone when it's required is to profane YHWH.
Ezekiel 13:19
And will you profane Me… killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live…?So clearly there is indeed justifications for putting people to death. I don't think YHWH kills people without justification
That may well be unpalatable to you Mandy but understand were emersed in a culture where the bleeding heart liberals have persuaded the masses that we should be sending rapists and murderers to what amounts to dressed up holiday camp, because “they have rights”. This is a new thing, previous generations thought it perfectly acceptable to execute serious criminals, and rightly so. If you set out to take a life and achieve it, you should forfiet you own life in return.
So we can kill people if there is enough “just cause”? We are still forbidden to murder. Both in the OT and the NT this is forbidden and as such, a breech of the Law. Why is OK for God to kill then? Further, why is it OK for him to order other's to kill when his Law clearly says it is a sin? Sounds like conflicting orders to me.
I think there is a distinction to be drawn between justified killing and murder. One is a sin and one is not.
The line of distinction has been drawn by many a killer. Ted Bundy, for instance, thought that he was ridding the world of slutty hitch-hikers. Justified? Sure.
On this lovely note I'm heading to bed. Thanks for the chat, Paul. Take care and kisses to the babies – hope you guys are sleeping through the night by now?
Love ya bro,
MandyQuote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,19:05) I think there is a distinction to be drawn between justified killing and murder. One is a sin and one is not.
Not to Jesus, killing is wrong period.Mandy see my posts in Here:
I have been discussing this very issue.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:47) That may well be unpalatable to you Mandy but understand were emersed in a culture where the bleeding heart liberals have persuaded the masses that we should be sending rapists and murderers to what amounts to dressed up holiday camp, because “they have rights”. This is a new thing, previous generations thought it perfectly acceptable to execute serious criminals, and rightly so. If you set out to take a life and achieve it, you should forfiet you own life in return.
Hi Is 1:18So I guess you are not very interested in why people commit crimes and whether there could be ways of fixing them rather than just doing away with them by imprisonment or execution.
How do you call yourself christian if you believe in the letter but not the spirit of the Old Testament, and ignore the words of the christian bible?
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Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(hmmm, who copied whom?)Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? (18:21-22) 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
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I think your posts almost amount to a death threat on me. How many adulterers have you actually stoned to death, Is 1:18?
Stuart
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,02:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,19:05) I think there is a distinction to be drawn between justified killing and murder. One is a sin and one is not.
Not to Jesus, killing is wrong period.Mandy see my posts in Here:
I have been discussing this very issue.
But eternal torture seems to be OK. According to Rev. its a Pay-per-view event in heaven.
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