Two House Israel

[shakai7]

Hello Nate,
It is true that only those who are spiritual children are truly Israel. Jews, Ephriaim, and true gentiles who believe in the Messiah as savior are His children. It says “all Israel is not Israel”.
Those who are decendents of Israel, yet reject their savior are excluded.
However the quote from Romans is speaking of the physical decendents,”through Issac your offspring will be reconned.”

“It is not the natural children but the children of the promise who are regarded as God's children”.

Abraham tried to speed God's promise to be father of many nations with Hagar, producing Ismael. The promise was through Issac not Ismael. The children of the promise are Issac's offspring not Ismael's. Although Ismael's can come in by recieving the Messiah.

The last quote comes from Hosea originally spoken to Ephiaim prophetically of how they would become, “not His Children”. in a place where they would be, then in that same place they would become His children again.
It is a prophcey to Ephriaim.
They are who are being called from the gentiles back through their Messiah.
D.

[Anonymous]

hey shakai7,

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However the quote from Romans is speaking of the physical decendents,”through Issac your offspring will be reconned.” “It is not the natural children but the children of the  promise who are regarded as God's children”.

i don't know… i think that this refers to the fact that the gentiles are children of the promise even though they're not of the flesh…

if it were the physical descendants, surely esau would be a child of the promise, as being the offspring of isaac also… but paul says that he's not because god chooses who he will have mercy on, and who he won't… i take this to mean that god decides who the true descendants of abraham (children of the promise) will be…

…however, i see how the hosea verse could very obviously be interpreted as concerning the jews (that is, in it's original context) but this doesn't seem to me the context in which paul quotes it, because before and after he seems to be talking very clearly about the gentiles…

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30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33As it is written:    “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble        and a rock that makes them fall,    and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

in a sense, the jews were sons of the flesh, not of the promise, because abraham believed the promise, by faith, and it was credited to him as righteousness (romans 4:3)… but the jews tried to achieve righteousness by the law…

paul says:

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12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

so anyone who believes by faith, are the true descendants of abraham and sons of the promise, but the jews (who live by the law) are sons of the flesh…

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13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless

i know that this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but i'm trying to keep to paul's context… i'm not sure i completely understand the two-house theory yet… is it a physical embodiment, or a spiritual one?

cheers,

nate.

[shakai7]

Hello Nate,
I don't have much time right now, just wanted to say the Jews are only one tribe, the one who was not lost.They are Judah, they as a whole through their leadership rejected their Messiah, then the Gospel was taken to the gentiles (nations), where Ephriaim was scattered among the gentiles.
D.

[shakai7]

Hello Nate,
Esau is not a child of the promise because; Gen.20:12 “it is through Issac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
Also says, “Ismael will become a nation”, (but it is through Issac the promise will pass.)

Gen.22:17-18 “Your decendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed”.

In Gen.25:29-34 (Esau would be Issac's firstborn, so he would recieve the birthright. But he despised it and sold it to Jacob for for food.)
Gen.32:12 (Jacob recieves word from God that) “his decendants would be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be counted.”
Gen.35:9-12 (God changes Jacob's name to Israel, and tells him), “a nation and a community of nations will come from you.”
Rom.9:6-13 “It is through Issac that your offspring will be reckoned, in other words it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.”
(Abraham had children through Ismael who would become a nation. These are not children of the promise since through Issac his offspring would they be reckoned. These are Abraham's natural children, from his body, but the promise God made with him would pass through Issac.
Issac's son Esau would sell his birthright and everything that went that title. Jacob would then gain all that Esau gave up.
God's promise to Abraham would pass to him.)
Rom.9: “at the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son. Not only this but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Issac. Yet before the twins were born or any had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls she was told, the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written: Jacob I loved and Esau I hated.”

( It was through Jacob that the children of the promise (to Abraham and Issac) would be accomplished not through Esau.)

When you continue through Rom.9:24-29 “The objects prepared in advance for glory, even US, whom He also called, not only Jews, (the Jews are only the Tribe of Judah, from the northern kingdom) but also from the gentiles? (nations)
As He says in Hosea: I will call them My people who are not My people, and I will call her My loved one who is not My loved one,
and,
It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, you are not my people, they will be called the sons of the living God. (exactly what He says in Romans)

(In Hosea 1, where this is quoted from God is speaking about the part of The house of Israel that He would scatter among the gentiles. Verse 7 says “He will show love for the house of Judah”. (The house of Judah would not be part in this punishment.) In Hosea, God gave this prophecy concerning what would happen to the house of Israel in the future. God does not lie, His words will come to pass. It is Ephriaim Israel who is being called out of the gentile nations, where they had been scattered, who were to become His people again, because the Messiah had paid for their covenant breaking.

Only those who recieve the Messiah through faith, that he has redeemed you, are children of the promise. That includes Jewsish-Israel believers, Ephiaim-Israel believers and non-Israel believers who are to be blessed by Abraham's offspring.
The non-Israel people are blessed because they will also become believers as God calls His lost Ephriam children out of the nations, the non-Israel believers will come also, through Ephriaim's calling.
Any Jewish-Israel, Ephriaim-Israel or non-Israel people who do not recieve the Messiah as their redeemer by faith, as most of the Jewish people at that time, will not be children of the promise. He says “all Israel is not Israel.” “Yet all Israel will be saved”.
Many Jews, (house of Judah) tried to gain salvation through the Law. The Law was not meant to save, only to point out what was sin, like looking into a mirror and seeing dirt on your face. (The mirror is the Law). You use it to see dirt on your face, but the mirror cannot clean your face, it only reveals the flaw. You then turn to the soap, ( the Messiah,) to clean your face.

Going from Abraham's promise in Genesis, straight to the NT, without reading Israel's history is skipping at least 2000 years of facts that explain what is spoken of in the NT.
We don't read other books, skipping many chapters, to get to the end. We would not know how the story got there. We would not truly understand what the ending means.
Or the history of the USA skipping the 1800s and 1900s and arriving in 2000 and know why we are who we are.
The same thing goes with the Bible, it is much clearer when read and studied complete.

Read Hosea to see what is meant in Romans.

This is only my opinion and understanding, I don't want to offend, so please do not take anything in that way.

D.

[Anonymous]

hey shakai7,

no offense taken…

i still can't say i fully understand the two-house theory, but i can't see anything offensive in it… it just seems like a slightly different interpretation of the promise to abraham and the prophecies concerning israel…

i can't see that it changes anything fundamentally, does it?

cheers,

nate.

[shakai7]

Hello Nate.
I guess Messianic Israel believes that most of the people that call themselves Christians are really the physical seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, that was scattered among the nations. They lost their identity, became as pagans not even knowing who they are. They multiplied and became as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand of the seashore among the gentiles. God fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Israel's breaking of the first covenant. So by the curse God kept his promise to Abraham. Satan tried to destroy Israel by leading them to pagan gods. God hid Israel among the gentiles where even satan could not find them until His purpose and plan would be completed. The Messiah would die for them and make payment for their return.
I think the main difference in this belief is that we Christians are really the former lost sheep of Israel, who have answered the call of the Shepherd. In the last days some will realize who they really are, the remnant of Israel, and our Messiah will reunite us back with Judah, Jews who recognize their Messiah.
This means that we are part of Israel, and when we read prophecies concerning Israel's future, it speaks not only the Jews, but also of those who call themselves Christians.
D.

[Anonymous]

hey shakai7,

an interesting take… i agree that the prophecies about israel can to some extent or another be applied to us a sons of the promise…

but i think that there's a slight logistic problem with the assumption that the lost tribes have been sufficiently spread among the gentiles as to substantiate a “physical” jewish ancestry among christians…

still, if you believe it, i can respect that… and i think i understand a bit better now…

cheers,

nate.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Guys,
This is an interesting topic and to be honest I don't have a lot of expertise. I would like to ask one thing of you, Shakai 7, though:
ifsaved christians are, in essence, 'israel', what about the church? I mean, it seems to me that these two 'entities' have different origins, promises and destinies. When I read Rom 9-11 I see Paul going to great lengths to distinguish between the two. Where does the church fit into this theory? Just curious.
God Bless
Is 1:18

[Proclaimer]

Shakai, you said

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Those who are decendents of Israel, yet reject their savior are excluded. However the quote from Romans is speaking of the physical decendents,”through Issac your offspring will be reconned.” “It is not the natural children but the children of the  promise who are regarded as God's children”. Abraham tried to speed God's promise to be father of many nations with Hagar, producing Ismael. The promise was through Issac not Ismael. The children of the promise are Issac's offspring not Ismael's. Although Ismael's can come in by recieving the Messiah.

So we still have the saved and the unsaved by acceptance and rejection of the Messiah and Ishmaels offspring can accept. So does this mean that only Issac and Ishmaels decendence can possibly be saved whilst all others are condemend at birth forever?

If only Israel can be saved, then that would mean that the Gentiles (non-Israel) are condemned. A bit sad for them if thats the case.

However if some are pre-destined to condemnation, then it could mean that they were sown by the Devil, (the tares). They are his creation.

But I don't see how free will works here. Predestined for condemnation because one is not from the physical seed of Abraham, seems tough, perhaps unfair.

Maybe I am drawing the wrong conclusions from your doctrine. Forgive me if I have.

But if I haven't mis-understood, then perhaps some scientists should workout the genome of greater Israel and then we could get a DNA sample before preaching the gospel.  

[shakai7]

Hello Nate,
It is not Jewish ancestory, that is only the tribe of Judah. It is the 10 tribes from Ephriaim-Israel.

In Isaiah 49:8-23 speaking of the restoation of Israel.
12. See, they will come from afar, some from the north, some from the west, some from the region of aswan.
14. But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,the Lord has forgotten me..” 15. “Can a mother forget a baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you. 16. See, I have engraved you in the palms of my hands, your walls are ever before me.
17. Your sons hasten back, and those who have laid you waste depart from you. 18. Lift up your eyes and look around, all your sons gather and come to you. As surely as I live, you will wear them as ornaments, you will put them on like a bride.
19. Though you were ruined and made desolate and your land laid waste, NOW YOU WILL BE TO SMALL FOR YOUR PEOPLE, and those who devoured will be far away.
20. The children born during your bereavement will yet say in your hearing, this place is to small for us, give us more space to live in. 21. And you (still speaking if Zion) will say in your heart, who bore me these? I was bereaved and barren, I was exiled and rejected. Who brought these up? I was left alone, but these, where did they come from?
22. This is what the Sovereign says: “SEE I WILL BECKON TO THE GENTILES, I WILL LIFT UP A BANNER TO THE PEOPLES, THEY WILL BRING YOUR SONS IN THEIR ARMS AND CARRY YOUR DAUGHTERS ON THEIR SHOULDERS. kINGS WILL BE YOUR FOSTER FATHERS, AND QUEENS YOUR NURSING MOTHERS”

Zion, the land that was Israel, who has been left alone after the people were taken away, sees that she is ruined and desolate, thinks that she is forgotten by the Lord, opens her eyes to see that multitudes of children are returning to her.They were born during her time of bereavement, she believed she was barren, yet gentile kings and queens have been caring for and nursing her children in their nations and are now bringing them back to her. So many that she will need more space to contain them.

The promise to Abraham was that his seed would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand of the seashore. God promised, so it is true. He scattered Israel among the nations, so they ARE there. He promised that He would call them back, He called them, who answered the call?
Hosea 10. Yet the people will be like the sand of the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to THEM, You are not my people, THEY will be called sons of the living God.
In Romans 9 speaking to the believers in Rome: “Whom He called, not only from the Jews (Judah) but also from the gentiles”.(nations, where Ephriaim-Israel is)” I will call them my people, who are not my people, and her my loved one who is not my loved one.
26. It will happen that in the very place where it was said to THEM, you are not my people, THEY will called the sons of the living God.”
Hosea 1:11. The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and come out of the land, for great is the day of Jezreel.(The Lord sows)

That is what he did with people of Israel, he sowed them among the gentiles where they grew hiding among the tares.

“I tell you open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for the harvest.”

Who answered the call? The believers in the Messiah, the ones who call themselves Christians.

D.

[shakai7]

Hello Is. 1:18
the word, church, is derived from the middle english word chirche. It was a building of worship even before Christianity arrived in England.
The greek word used in the in the original manuscripts is, Ekklesia, “calling out, meeting, congregation, synagogue. Community of members ;

I believe the idea that the church, as it is understood is false.
My belief is that the “called out” were the Jewish believers called out from Judism and the Ephiaimite believers called out from paganism in the gentile nations.
There are no two seperate entities. origins, promises or destinies.
I understand Rom. 9-11 to be speaking to, Israel representing the Jews and the gentiles representing Ephriaim.
It speaks of Israel (Jews) trying so hard to obtain righteousness by works and not attaining it. (exept for a remnant chosen by grace) but the gentiles (Ephriaim scattered) did obtain it by faith.

D.

[shakai7]

Hello t8,
I am sorry that I am hard to understand. There is so much all through th Bible about this that I cannot write it all. I try to put as much as I can to explain my point but sometimes I list books and chapters that speaks about this subject.
I said in one of my earlier post that this is not a salvation issue. It just tries to find where the seed of Abraham have been scattered as spoken in scripture.
To start with it is part of Jacobs offspring who were dispresed among the nations and lost their identity not Ismael's. Ismael is not part of the promise to Abraham.
Anyone who accepts the Messiah, whether Jewish-Israel,
Ephriaim-Israel, or non-Israel, will be saved. I have never found a covenant that God made with anyone but Israel, so non-Israel people will come in through the covenant made with Israel.
No DNA test is needed because knows where Israel is, we do not. The gospel is preached to everyone because anyone who believes and obeys will be saved. I just believe that the majority who will believe are Israel. As far as predestined, God knows everyone who will believe, no one will surprise Him, and he knows everyone who will not.

D.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
10 tribes of the Jewish dispersion never came home. Armstrongism states that they came through Caucasus and finished up populating England and thence The USA such that they relate prophecies for those tribes to those countries. Anyone wish to add?

[NickHassan]

This has come up again.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Of course the uniting of Jew and gentile is in the Olive tree of Israel.
Rom11
” 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. “

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I do not know what can be proven about this.

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