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Hello,
Is anybody interested in a discussion about God's dividing of Israel into two seperate kingdoms, Judah and Ephriaim, and how it relates to the NT.Hi shakai7,
I got this info from a web site. Is it correct?
Messianic Israel believes Yeshua Ha'Natsree (Jesus of Nazareth) was and is the true Messiah, the Lion of Judah, the Branch Who will fully reunite all Israel; that He died and rose from the dead and lives at the right hand of the Almighty; and according to the ancient Holy Scriptures, Yeshua is Yahveh Elohim appearing in the flesh, as Yeshua demonstrated in Himself (Deu 18:18-19; John 8:58; 10:33; Mat 12:6-8; 9:35; 15:31; Isa 11; 53; Micah 5:2-4; Luke 24:46; Isa 8:14; John 2:22; Acts 3:15-17; Heb 13:20; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 1:7; Rev 5:5; John 1:1).
Messianic Israel believes we are made righteous in Messiah Yeshua (He is the heart of Abraham's unconditional covenant). The sign of the New Covenant is circumcision of the heart, which leads to confession, salvation, faith, grace, and to good works in Messiah. The conditional Mosaic covenant presents the eternal truths of Torah (God's teaching and instructions) to His people, the hearing of which brings about blessing or curse (respond and be blessed, disobey and lack). In the New Covenant, Yeshua's Law is to be written on our hearts by the Spirit (Rom 4:13-16; 5:2; 10:10; 1 Pet 1:19; 2 Cor 5:21; Gal 3:16,29; Titus 3:5; Heb 10:38; 1 John 1:9; Eph 2:8; James 2:14; Deu 28; Ezek 36:26; Jer 31:31-33; Heb 10:16; Gal 2:16; John 5:46; 10;30; 14:2; 15:10).
Messianic Israel is a people whose heart's desire is to fully reunite the olive tree of Israel—both branches— Ephraim and Judah—into one, redeemed, nation of Israel—through Messiah Yeshua. They seek to arouse Ephraim from obscurity, and by example, to awaken Judah to the Messiah—and thus to hasten both Yeshua's return to Earth and the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Mat 6:10; 12:25; 21:43; 24:43; Luke 22:29-30; Mark 13:34; Luke 22:29-30; 2 Chr 11:4; Eze 37:15-28; Jer 11:10,16; 2:18,21; Rom 11:17,24; Eph 2:11-22; Acts 1:6).
Messianic Israel deems the Jewish people to be the identifiable representatives and offspring of Judah and “the children of Israel, his companions,” and that non-Jewish followers of the Messiah from all nations have been, up to now, the unidentifiable representatives and offspring of Ephraim and “all the house of Israel, his companions” (Gen 48:19; Hosea 1-2; 5:3; Eze 37:16; Jer 31:6-9; Gen 15:2-5; 26:3; 28:4; Heb 11:9; Isa 56:3,6-8; Eph 2:11-22).
Messianic Israel affirms that the Jewish people have been kept identifiable as seed of the patriarch Jacob, Yahveh's covenant people, to preserve His Holy Torah (Law), Feasts, and Shabbat (Sabbath); that the salvation of the Jewish people through their acceptance of Messiah Yeshua, will be the crowning act of mankind's redemption, and is necessary for the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel. Further, the Father plans that Ephraim, they being the “wild olive branch,” stimulate Judah to want what they have; they are called to walk in a way that will make Judah jealous of their relationship with the God of Israel (Gen 48:19; Isa 11:13; 37:31,32; Zec 2:12; Eze 37:15-28; Hosea 1:7; Rom 10:19; 11:11,14; Mat 23:39).
Messianic Israel believes the non-Jewish followers of Yeshua are primarily returning Ephraim, those who were once among the Gentiles as “LoAmmi/Not a people,” but have been restored to the commonwealth of Israel through their covenant with Israel's Messiah, and are no more “Gentiles,” but fulfill the promised restoration of uprooted Ephraim, and Jacob's prophecy that Ephraim would become “melo hagoyim,/fulness of the Gentiles.” As Ephraim, they have been kept in mystery until recently and have been used to preserve the testimony of Yeshua, the Messiah of all Israel. Their awakening, recognition, and performance as Ephraim, and reunion with Judah, is part of the Divine plan for Israel's restoration to her Messiah and to the Kingdom of YHWH (Gen 48:19; Hosea 1:9-10; 5:3; 8:8; Amos 9:9; Jer 31:18-19; Zec 10:7; Rom 9:24-26; 11:25-26; Eph 2:11-22).
Messianic Israel declares that Believers in Yeshua were not meant to replace Judah as Israel, but as “Ephraim,” they are part of the called out ones (ekklesia), and in these latter-days, the Father is leading them to, whenever Scripturally possible, join with Judah; that Judah (faithful Jewish ones who will receive Messiah) and Ephraim (faithful non-Jewish Messiah followers) ultimately will fulfill the destiny of the two houses of Israel: that together they might fulfill the prophesies about the one, unified, victorious people of Israel (Jer 31:9; Rom 8:29; Col 1:15,18; 2:12; Heb 12:22-24; Lev 23:2-36; Exo 19:5; 1 Pet 1:1; 2:9; Jer 3:18; 23:6; Zec 8:13; 12:1-5; Mat 25:31-46; Exo 12:48-49; Num 15:15-16; Isa 56:3,6-8).
Messianic Israel maintains that up to this general time “blindness in part” has happened to all (both houses) of Israel, and as the blinders are lifted, non-Jewish followers in Yeshua will gain insight into their role as Ephraim, they will become defenders of Scriptural Torah and of Judah, and due to this character change, many Jewish people will accept Yeshua as Messiah. This process has already begun as indicated through the Messianic Jewish movement (Judah), the Christian Zionism movement (Ephraim), and the Messianic Israel movement (union of Judah and Ephraim) (Isa 8:14; 11:13; Rom 11:25,26; Jer 33:14-16; 31:18-19; Ezek 37:15-28).
The reunion and full restoration of the two houses: This is the hope that burns in the hearts of those of Messianic Israel…
Hi t8 and shakai 7,
We know that there are 10 missing tribes of the Jews who were taken into exile ,I think by the Assyrians, and have never been heard of since.The Armstrongian church [who put out The Plain Truth magazine and preach on ch 5 on Sundays 0830] teach that these people came to England and emigrated to The USA .Rather fanciful but there is still some mystery surrounding them.
Hello t8 and Nick,
That information you copied from that web site is the basic beliefs of Messianic Israel but a deep study into the the history of God's promises to Abraham and his decendents who would become the 12 tribes of Israel, how they were divided into two seperate kingdoms with seperate histories, why God divided them, what happened to them and the prophecies throughout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Ezekiel and other OT books that explain God's plan to reunite them into one kingdom again. The NT speaks continuously of this once you see who the lost 10 tribes are.
Nick, I have heard of Armstrong's teachings about this subject, but Armstong has a much more shallow understanding than what the Messianic Israel movement has
had revealed to them. I have been studying this subject for a few years and the entire Bible and God's plan has openned up before me in a way that is so clear. My understanding of the NT has changed. The OT and the NT tie together as one continuous story with one theme which is the fullfillment of God's unchanged plan from the beginning to the end.
D.Hi shakai 7,
Roman 11 tells us that christians are not of the same rootstock as the chosen people. We are wild olives grafted into the original olive tree. So we can't be Ephraim as Ephraim is part of the original olive tree and still exists. We can't become a tribe of Israel surely?If so what would become of the true tribe? Sorry I do not think you can prove it from the Word as God does not work in confusing ways..Hello Nick,
I am sorry to say that I think you are very wrong. How can you come to such a fast conclusion without even looking into it? Romans chp.11 is talking about Ephriaim and Judah, not only that but the whole book of Romans speaks on this subject. That is what I mean when I say it is a continuous story from OT to NT, in fact the NT is not a stand-alone testiment but can only be understood in light of the Old Testiment. The olive tree is Israel, it never represents pagan or true gentile nations. Something else that I am sure you will reject very quickly, I thought it was crazy when I first heard it. But I had to study to find out why someone could believe such nonsense, so I searched and now I believe it to the truth. Gentiles are Israel.
God has never made a covenant with anyone but Israel.
The decendents of Ephriaim who were taken into Assyria and then they were dispersed into the nations to become the fullness of the gentiles. It is Ephriaim who is being called out from the gentile nations. The Messiah has paid the price for their sin. Along with Ephriaim also will come true gentiles who do not decend from Israel but have excepted their Messiah. They will be reunited with Judah as they begin to recognize who their Messiah is.
Abraham is told by God that his decendents will possess the the cities of their enemies. They will become as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. That was passed on to Issac then to Jacob. In Romans chp.4 it speaks of this promise that Abraham received by faith to be a father of many nations. God will keep His promise. There is so much information between Genesis and Revelations to clearly show this, it is overwhelming. Look in the beginning of James and see who it is witten to. And in Hebrews chp.8 and see who the new covenant is made with. Where is the covenant with the gentiles?
The Messiah speaks of His sheep in John chp.10, He is teaching from Ezekiel chp.34 . Read these both and then you can see who the sheep are.
D.Hello,
Sorry made a mistake, I meant (gentiles are Ephiaim).hey shakai7,
concerning the lost tribes: doesn't paul say he's of the tribe of benjamin – one of the supposed “lost tribes”? also, there's a lot of historical evidence to suggest that the “diaspora” were very much alive and “unlost” in mesopotamia during and after the time of jesus… i have also read that the majority of the hebrew writings and teachings of jesus' day came from babylonia…
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God has never made a covenant with anyone but Israel.i find this a bit hard to believe, seeing as we are told that the spirit of god has been poured out on all flesh…
gotta go now…
cheers,
nate.
. Hello,
The House of Judah contained the tribe of Judah, Levi who were the priest of the temple, and the tribe of Benjamin who went to war against Israel and was defeated and due to that they lost their claim to the land. Also I am sure that small amounts of the different tribes were intermarried and so each tribe contained few of the other tribes. Even the great majority of Judah did not return to Jerusalem after they came out of Babylon. Mesopatamia is a gentile nation part of nations where they scattered, among many others. James, Hebrews, and the books of the prophets that I mentioned are not books out of Babylon, but are inspired by God. I am not using any books other than the Bible. As I said this can not be understood with limited study of the OT.But it is clearly seen without confusion. I once believed as you, but after deeply looking into the Two House scriptures I see it so differently. As I said I have been studying this for a few years, and to say something is wrong without searching the scriptures makes your argument weak. God said he would pour out Spirit on all flesh, that is from Joel chp.2. Go and read who he is talking to, it continues into chp.3. “Oh people of Zion”.
D.Hi shakai7
Heb 12.12
“So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees. Make STRAIGHT THE PATHS YOU WALK ON, that your halting limbs may not be dislocated but healed”
Heb 13.9
” Do not be carried away by all kinds of STRANGE TEACHING”Having been recently rescued from the marshes of trinity I have no interest in going off the straight path chasing the pretty butterflies of derived teachings anymore. I know the mists of confusion can close around you and the pits of deception are not far away. I need to concentrate on what has been shown clearly to us because the gospel was written for children, not clever experts.
Hello Nick,
Then why are you responding to this subject? I was not asking for people to argue with but people interested in discussing this subject. I thought there might be others of like understanding at this site, it seemed from other topics I had read that people were open to look for the truth about the scriptures.For someone who has been rescued from “the marshes of trinity,” you should realize there might still be other marshes to be rescued from. Trinity is a strange teaching to some and no trinity is a strange teaching to others. “Pretty butterflies”, “derived teachings”,”the pits of deception are not far away”. Real smart little sayings lacking in any substance for your argument. Is that they way this site works, someone opens discussion on a topic, states their veiws and Nick, declares it “STRANGE TEACHINGS”. “The gospel is written for children.”
Heb. chp.6:1 “Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and move on to maturity. 3: and God premitting we will do so.”
Children are supposed to grow up and leave the milk and begin to eat meat. Just because you do not know very much about the two houses of Israel does not make it false teaching. I'd be carefull condemming a teaching that may very well be from God, due to lack of knowledge.
I am no clever expert, but from all the topics I see you replying to, I think you must think are.Hi Shakai7
You may find the following site of interest for the topic at hand.
http://www.onhigh.org/articles.htm
Shalom
hey shakai7,
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As I said this can not be understood with limited study of the OT.But it is clearly seen without confusion. I once believed as you, but after deeply looking into the Two House scriptures I see it so differently. As I said I have been studying this for a few years, and to say something is wrong without searching the scriptures makes your argument weak. God said he would pour out Spirit on all flesh, that is from Joel chp.2. Go and read who he is talking to, it continues into chp.3. “Oh people of Zion”.well… shot down in flames am i? before you boast about the amount of study you've done, perhaps you should consider that many people on this site have also spent years searching out what they believe… and whether these beliefs are right or wrong, ultimately only god can judge (and i don't think he's as concerned with doctrines as with other matters)…
please believe that i was implying you were wrong, but that i found what you said (or what i thought you said) hard to believe in light of the scriptures… this may be because i've misunderstood what you're trying to say, so to avoid this, maybe you should elaborate on your beliefs:
do you mean that the gentiles who turn to jesus become part of israel?
is this a physical or a spiritual israel?
what is required of the jews, and how do they differ from the gentiles?
if you could answer these questions, then perhaps i'll have a better understanding of what you believe… similarly, i'll be able to tell you what i believe… that way, if we have to resort to insults, at least they'll be informed insults… hehehe…
cheers,
nate.
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please believe that i was implying you were wrongwhoops… i mean “wasn't”…
cheers,
nate.
I know very little on this subject so I cannot make a judgement. But I offer some ideas and verses for consideration in order to see how they fit or or how they do not fit this doctrine or teaching.
Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.Romans 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.It appears to me at least that the childern of Abraham are not only those who can claim a physical lineage to him, but those who had/have faith like him.
The NT seems to use a lot of the OT, but in a spiritual way. E.g. circumcision and circumcision of the heart. Or the Temple and the Body of Christ. I also see that some have or are leaving grace for the Law. But Grace is the promise that the Law held for us. We should be progressing in God, not digressing.
What I am trying to say is that those who have faith are the children of Abraham. Although this doesn't answer the questions regarding the tribes of Israel, I just wanted to point this out as it is more important to understand the spiritual than the physical.
However that doesn't rule out the physical either. It is still interesting and I think that the journey of Israel is an important one for the Church to study. It seems to me that the Church has made the same mistakes that Israel made. So it is important to know about her. After all we are the grafted in branches as scripture says.
Although it is possible that some may be of Israel and not know it, it is more important to have the faith of Abraham.
It will be interesting to see where this discussion ends up. I hope to learn from it.
Hi shakai7
Quote (shakai7 @ Oct. 10 2004,01:03)
Sorry made a mistake, I meant (gentiles are Ephiaim).
Would you be able to spell out exactly what you mean when you say this, and how you would show it from the Bible?My apologies if you feel you already have, but if it's not clear to me, then maybe it's not to clear to others too.
Thanks
Sam
Hello, I am sorry if it appears that I am boasting about my study or that others have not spent as much time studying the Word. That was not what I meant, I was only speaking about the two house topic. This is not a salvation issue, I became very interested in this as I looked deeper, as so often happens I thought others might be interested too. I know that some of the things I have said seem to contradict what most beleive. I felt the same way at first. Ephriahim are gentiles. This sounds like a contradition, sounds nuts.
I can not show this by one scripture here or there, it is understood by following Israel's history from Genesis, beginning with God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as numerous as the stars in the sky, which is passed on to Issac from Issac to Jacob. Jacob becomes the father of 12 sons. Each of them will become a tribe and will multiply.
After King Soloman dies God divides the Kingdom of Israel into two seperate kingdoms. The northern kingdom consisting
of 10 tribes, Samaria being it's center. The southern kingdom consisting primarily of Judah and Levi, centered in Jerusalem.
1st and 2nd Kings and 1st and 2nd Chronnicles follows the history of the two different kingdoms and their split. This seperation begins in 1st Kings chp.11 and continues into chp. 12. Here the king of the northern tribe is given an offer from God that if his people will keep the covenant from Sinai that the combined Israel had broken they would then recieve the blessings promised. If they failed they would recieve the curses described, the last of which, Duet.26:33 “I will scatter you among the nations.” (gentiles)
As you follow the history of Israel through 1st Kings you see that the northern tribe turns to paganism and fails to please God. Then in 2nd kings Chp. 17 God keeps His promise. Verse 18 says that only Judah was left. The northern tribe was taken away to Assyria to eventually was scattered throughout th nations. This northern kingdom called Ephriaim would begin to multiply within the nations where they scattered, they would mix with the native people and lose their identity, but God knew where they were. In this lost state they would fulfill God's promise to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and fill the nations with Abraham's seed. There they would wait for the Messiah to come and pay the price for their covenant breaking and sin so they could be brought back and reunited with Judah and become one kingdom again under one Shepherd. The gentile natives will be blessed because they to will take part in the call back with Ephriaim through Israel's Messiah.
Judah, who are the Jews, the southern kingdom, even though they too have sinned and broke God's covenant are kept intact to be keepers of God's word, the Torah and through Judah the Messiah would be born and sacrificed for the world.Isaiah, Jeremiah,Ezekiel and Hosea prophetically speak of Israel scattering and return. Hosea's marriage is a picture of God's feelings toward his people , Israel.
Hosea chp.1 and chp.2 speak of this.
This is how the people of Israel are scattered throughout the nations and become as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand af the seashore, and become the fullness of the gentiles.In the NT we find Judah being ocuppied by Rome, Ephriaim still scattered among the nations near and far, when the Messiah comes. First He brings His message, the good news that he has come to pay the price to Judah. Then to the sheep of the other pen, that His sheep will hear His voice and follow Him, the others will hear His voice also. John cpt.10 speaks of this.
John cpt.11:51 Caiaphas prophesied “Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God to bring them together and make them one.”
After He is killed and rises in Acts 1:7 He is asked,” Are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” For about 9 Years the good news is brought to Judah. Most of the first years the believers were Jews, a remnant of Jews who were to accept their Messiah. Then through Shaul (Paul) the good news would go to the gentiles (nations) where Ephriaim had been scattered, living as pagans, to reveal to them who they are and that the Messiah had come and bought them back to be reunited with Jewish believers. Any native gentile could return with them through their Messiah and become one of them. They heard His voice through His disciple's good news message and recognized His voice.Messianic Israel's belief is that the people that call themselves Christians are mostly the lost tribes of Israel hearing their Messiah's voice and following it.
This is the basic understanding, yet there is so very much more evidence throughout the books of the Bible starting in Genesis.
D.hey shakai7,
i can see that in a spiritual sense, we are called israel, and the descendants of abraham – as paul says in romans:
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6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.and then quotes from hosea:
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“I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,” 26and,
“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' “but i still don't understand why we should be equated with the lost tribes… ??
cheers,
nate.
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