True church

Participant

What do the JWs and the Catholics have in common? They are both the one true church

One claims to be apostolic. The other claims to be Russellic

One rejects the Spirit of truth. The other doesn't believe their is one

2Ti 3:5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away.

2Ti 3:7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Co 2:9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I pray that “all” would come out of her.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

February 8, 2006 at 7:33 am#11531

Participant

Quote

What do the JWs and the Catholics have in common? They are both the one true church

One claims to be apostolic. The other claims to be Russellic

One rejects the Spirit of truth. The other doesn't believe their is one

Being someone who was once a Catholic, I believe we have almost nothing in common.
By the way, as I've told you several times now we are not russelistic. There is a group called the russelites, or perhaps you're thinking of the IBS you were talking about before.
And you are wrong again, when you say that we don't believe there is a spirit of truth. Please stop being wrong.

JOHN 16:13
“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth….”

February 8, 2006 at 2:59 pm#11533

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 08 2006,07:33)

Quote

What do the JWs and the Catholics have in common? They are both the one true church

One claims to be apostolic. The other claims to be Russellic

One rejects the Spirit of truth. The other doesn't believe their is one

JOHN 16:13
“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth….”

Your right david I'm very sorry! I got into the flesh for awhile The Lord was telling me not to say those things as I was writing them The outter man won this time you can always tell because it's an “attack” I'm very very sorry please frogive me

Lets be friends

February 9, 2006 at 10:58 am#11541

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Friends,

First I do not believe the Pope or anyone on earth is without sin or error. BUT I believe that God in his wisdom has left us a Church that even though it is run by sinners he will not allow her teachings to become fallible, no matter who the Pope is or what the so called believers do within the Church.
Just as the Holy Spirit inspired the Holy Scriptures and used sinners to write the Bible. I also believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the Church’s teachings even though it is run by sinners.

For those who are inclined to insult and make smart comments about the Catholic Church I am used to being persecuted for being a Catholic.
If anyone has genuine concerns about the Church and is willing to debate in a love and caring fashion about any of the following subjects, I am happy to debate.

a) The Whore of Babylon
b) Sinning by calling Priests Father
c) Worships pieces of bread thinking it is God.
d) Justification is by faith and good works.

And for those that don’t believe Jesus handed earthly AUTHORITY to Peter I am happy to debate this. PLEASE note I work FULL time and have a very young family, 3 Children in 5 years so if I don’t reply straight away PLEASE be patient, it may take a week before I get time to reply. My first commitment to God is my family so please only two subjects at a time.
I know nearly everyone in this forum will disagree with me so please don’t over load me it doesn’t make you right if others in the forum agree with you and it’s not the way to debate by ganging up on people.

I am willing to debate in respect and in love without twisting scriptures and as long as everyone is willing to humble themselves if they cannot argue against scripture not my word but the ‘Word of God’. God’s power is made perfect in our weakness 2Co 12:9.

Another Catholic Church teaching is don’t use contraceptive pills. No offence but for those that use contraceptive pills there are not ONE BUT THREE mechanisms of birth control pills. All BCPs (birth control pills) or OCs (oral contraceptives), YES every contraceptive pill has these three mechanisms.
1. inhibiting ovulation (the primary mechanism),
2. thickening the cervical mucus, thereby making it more difficult for sperm to travel to the egg, and
3. thinning and shriveling the lining of the uterus to the point that it is unable or less able to facilitate the implantation of the new individual.
The first two mechanisms are contraceptive. The third is ABORTIVE.
PLEASE do some study or open up another forum on this subject if you don’t believe me.
The so called evil Catholic Church even knows BCPs are wrong. Well Jesus warned us the true Church would be called the household of Beelzebub

Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Thoughts?
What is the pillar of truth that scripture talks about “Scripture or the Church”?
Did those that had the authority from the Davidic kingdom not do terrible things, those same people inspired by the Holy Spirit to write parts of the Old Testament?
Who understands scripture the men that learnt directly from the disciples or the Men 1500 hundred years after Christ?
Did God decide after the first 1500 years that no the last supper is only a symbol it’s not really my Body and Blood I will just let the Church ran with the idea for one and a half thousand years. [Our loving God done this, really!]
Did our loving God really wait over fifteen hundred years to reveal his True Church, his BRIDE? Who was Jesus bride for the first 1500 years?
What does Jesus say about divorce? What did Jesus say about obeying teachings within the Church, even if it’s run by sinners?

What did Jesus say about obeying the Pharisees? The answers in the beginning of Matthew chapter 23, have you read what Jesus goes on to say about the Pharisees I challenge ALL to read it again. It even finish’s with some Whore of Babylon prophecy in the last few verses and Yes it’s the same chapter that Jesus says don’t call men Father.

Jesus tells his disciples to do what these Pharisees teach but don’t do what they do. This is because they have authority they sit in Moses seat.
Jesus condemns the Pharisees for the rest of the Chapter [nearly ALL 35 Verses].

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Scripture only? Hey who decided the canon for the New Testament?
Tradition doesn’t count? Yeah well what about these scriptures ?

Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
(MSG) “You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you'll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me!

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, AS I DELIVERED THEM TO YOU.

1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I WARN YOU.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many FATHERS: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
(MSG) There are a lot of people around who can't wait to tell you what you've done wrong, but there aren't many fathers willing to take the time and effort to help you grow up. It was as Jesus helped me proclaim God's Message to you that I became your FATHER.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the TRADITIONS which ye have been taught, whether BY WORD, or our EPISTLE.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the TRADITION which he received of us.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH.

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast HEARD of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who SHALL be able to TEACH OTHERS ALSO.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
[At the time this verse was written, the only “scripture” around was the Old Testament. Was Paul telling Timothy he needed nothing but the Old Testament? And in what way does “profitable” mean “sufficient”?]

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his [PAULS] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, WHICH THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, as they do also the other scriptures, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

2Jo 1:12 Having many things to wr
ite unto you, I would NOT WRITE with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and SPEAK face to face, that our joy may be FULL.

3Jo 1:13 I had many things to write, but I WILL NOT WITH INK AND PEN WRITE UNTO THEE:
3Jo 1:14 But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall SPEAK face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.

In the last 200 to 300 years there has been that many different ideas that a lot of Faith based communities can no longer read the word of God for its face value.
The first lie to come about was the idea that we are justified by faith alone. We now have new interpretations with new Church’s starting up all the time.
Did Jesus come to leave a bible and say good luck with your search? Even scripture alone disproves scripture alone.
“[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John.” Council of Carthage III, Canon 47 (A.D. 397).
And for those that don’t think the Deuterocanonical books known to Protestants as the “Apocryphal” should be in the bible please do same research on the “Council of Jamnia” around 90-100 AD.
The Catholic Church was established by Jesus in 33AD in Jerusalem while the Jehovah's Witnesses where established 1874AD by Charles Taze Russell in Pennyslvania. I have no disrespect for anyone who is a Jehovah Witnesses, the ones I have meet are extremely kind and loving.
Lets run to sacraments of the Church not away from them. Even in Jesus time people walked away from him because the teaching of the bread of life where to hard for them to follow.
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:66 From that time MANY of his DISCIPLES went back, and WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM.

Yes the Jews understood what Jesus was saying, just as the Catholic Church has always understood what the living bread IS.
Does anyone claim to have a better understanding than the Jews and the early Church? If so, let’s look at this subject in-depth.
I challenge everyone to read what the early Church has been writing and teaching for the first few hundred years and compare it to what that same Church now teaches. I get sick of being accused by atheists that the Church has to change with the times and then get accused by faith based communities that the Church has walked away from the Truth and that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
These teachings are not my own they have been taught for nearly 2000 years.
Sorry no offense intended but this is what I believe is the Truth and I believe the Truth needs to be told. I don’t care for man’s approval only Gods so let the Truth be told. Lets take the scriptures for face value, how they have been taught from the beginning.
May the Holy Spirit bless you and keep you in his grace.

February 10, 2006 at 2:18 am#11542

Participant

Hi scripture seeker,

I'm open to the truth. That's what I seek and want. I will ask you one question and make a statement concerning the body and blood of Christ. OK

They had a catholic preist as a guest on a christian talk show. I called in and asked who the harlot was he said ” Idon't know but it is not the catholic church”. I found that odd that a priest of the living God doesn't know the Word of God. You offered so now I'm asking you, If you do know then you know more than the priest. Please explain “who is the harlot”.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.

Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Spiritually the bread is Christ body and the wine the blood of Christ. Spiritually if you look at a woman with lust you have commited adultry.
You don't have to physically touch that woman, but you've commited adultry.
If you believe that the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ then it is Spiritually. But the preist has no power to phyically change that bread to the actual body of Christ.

Thanks for participating in the forum. I pray that we learn from each other!

February 10, 2006 at 2:30 am#11543

Is 1:18

Participant

Interesting post scripture seeker. I would like your understanding of the identity of “The Whore of Babylon”. It's a much used (and abused) moniker in this forum, and is usually assigned to denominational chrisendom, but I'm yet to see anyone competently 'define' it in a scriptural context. I won't be around to read or reply for a few days (i'm going out of town for a friend's wedding), but I will respond next week.

Be well.

February 10, 2006 at 2:34 am#11544

Is 1:18

Participant

Kenrch,
I didn't see your post before i started to write mine but I see that we asked the exact same question. Great minds think alike…… :cool:

February 10, 2006 at 3:41 am#11545

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 10 2006,02:34)

Kenrch,
I didn't see your post before i started to write mine but I see that we asked the exact same question. Great minds think alike……

SURRRRRRRE! :laugh:

February 10, 2006 at 4:12 am#11546

Participant

Hi Scripture Seeker, Is 1:18, and Kenrch.
I was once Catholic. My family is mostly Catholic and half the people surrounding me growing up was Catholic. And I've spoken with hundreds of Catholic people in the ministry, going from door to door.

So I too am greatly interested in bringing out the truth this subject and discussing these things. Most everything mentioned thus far has been of great interest to me.

So…
pick a subject.

April 3, 2006 at 12:12 pm#12350

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Brothers,

1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? OR DESPISE YE THE CHURCH OF GOD, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

If you want to pick holes in the Catholic Church, why not pick holes in what makes the Church the Bride the Body of Christ, which was born from the cross from the New Sleeping Adam from which flowed from his side his holy bride. Prove this subject is wrong then the Church is the Whore prove this subject is right then She is the Bride “its that simple”.
But lets not twist Gods word, I am not interested in debating against man made views, only Gods!
Please read what God says here with an open and humble heart.

Corinthians 11:23-30
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, SHALL BE GUILTY OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. But let a man examine himself, and so let him EAT OF THAT BREAD, AND DRINK OF THAT CUP.
FOR HE THAT EATETH AND DRINKETH UNWORTHILY, EATETH AND DRINKETH DAMNATION TO HIMSELF, NOT DISCERNING THE LORD'S BODY. FOR THIS CAUSE MANY ARE WEAK AND SICKLY AMONG YOU, AND MANY SLEEP.

Are you eating what Paul was eating Here? Can it make you weak, sick or even DIE [SLEEP]

NOT DISCERNING WHAT ????
What did Paul say the apparent “bread” and “wine” are?

Those who think the Catholic Church stuck it lucky with there teaching of NOT BY FAITH ALONE, maybe very surprised if they spend some time on this subject.

Blessings and love to you all.

April 3, 2006 at 9:25 pm#12363

Participant

Hi SS,
I too grew up catholic and loved it being a daily mass goer. I felt it was the most true church being able to claim some history back to Peter and having all of the bases covered as far as doctrine went. And if ever there was an area that seemed strange I could accept that these things were just mysteries and if we thought we could understand God we had another think coming.

And there was the comforting teaching that the pope and the leaders were infallible as God's Spirit was guiding the catholic church. I could follow the neat traditions and rituals and could stack up so many points with God simply by going to church being involved in all the rituals including and communion. There were seasons and festivals. Song and glorious dress, drama, art and incense. So satisfyingly complete. End of story.

Then I discovered the bible and having believed it started to get very uncomfortable. The very things that I had trusted so much seemed to be shallow and foolishly human and empty of any depth of substance. I realised that my human needs for security were not ever going to be met within this barque, whose direction was away from the ways of the kingly Master revealed in scripture.

Slowly the dross fell away till I realised that it was all folly and I could no longer follow men, but had to be established myself in the Son of God and not try to hold on to the coat tails of rebellious theologians and popes.

Phil 3.7f
” But whatever things were gain to me those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Jesus Christ my Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish in order that I might gain Christ, and may be found in him.”

April 3, 2006 at 10:22 pm#12368

seekingtruth

Participant

Hi Scripture Seeker,
Hope the family is doing well.

I believe that the whore is best defined as those of religion that have sold themselves out to self interests. After a recent dialog with T8 I do have to agree that the Catholic Church as headquartered in Rome is the best candidate for the city, but I believe by the time of the prophecy it will include not just catholics but most of those who have chosen religion over God, in other words I believe it will include Baptist, Methodist, etc. From what I've read even the Catholic Church itself believes that there will be an evil pope in the future.

It's my opinion that all true believers are spread thoughout the denominations to be that light on a hill but the time is rapidly approaching (and possibly already begun) when we will be called out.

I guess the question to ask if your attending a church is do we stand out, not that we are noticed by how loud we are, but you live your life differently, you deal with people differently, Love is your motivation and it shows. God will provide you with opportunities to minister to those of lesser faith and draw them towards Him.

Bless you brother.

April 4, 2006 at 2:42 am#12393

Participant

Quote

From what I've read even the Catholic Church itself believes that there will be an evil pope in the future.

Really??

Scripture Seeker, there is a great gentleness in your words. I picture you as your avatar shows. It is refreshing. Somehow, even when I don't agree with exactly what you say, I agree with how you say it. You speak with kindness and repect. Thankyou.

david

April 4, 2006 at 2:59 am#12395

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 03 2006,23:22)

Hi Scripture Seeker,
Hope the family is doing well.

It's my opinion that all true believers are spread thoughout the denominations to be that light on a hill but the time is rapidly approaching (and possibly already begun) when we will be called out.

Bless you brother.

I agree,
The whore has many daughters.

April 4, 2006 at 7:06 pm#12413

sandra

Participant

Any church that even suggests that you pray to a, “Holy Mary Mother of God” is a Whore!

Now David, partaking of the bread and wine unworthily means without salvation. I too grew up Catholic, went through the first communion, where I was asked to kiss the Bishops ring, I refused! I did not have a clear understanding when I participated in communion, how does that tie in with, “Do this in memory of me?”

Please David, find the scriptures in Hebrews, “do not worship or pray to Angels or Saints” We are all saints in Christ! You wouldn't pray to one of your fellow brother's in the Lord, would you?

April 4, 2006 at 7:17 pm#12414

Participant

Hi sandra,
They do pray to their own dead relatives though, because if they get an apparent answer then they can claim, according to their warped logic, that their relatve is a “saint”. Figure that one out!

We are meant to break bread together to symbolise our unity with Christ and one another.

April 4, 2006 at 9:30 pm#12418

Participant

Quote

Any church that even suggests that you pray to a, “Holy Mary Mother of God” is a Whore!

Please David, find the scriptures in Hebrews, “do not worship or pray to Angels or Saints” We are all saints in Christ! You wouldn't pray to one of your fellow brother's in the Lord, would you?

Hey Sandra. Why are you telling me this? I have no idea what you're talking about. I understand the words. I'm not sure why they are directed to me?

April 4, 2006 at 11:35 pm#12424

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ April 03 2006,13:12)

Brothers,

1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? OR DESPISE YE THE CHURCH OF GOD, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Are you eating what Paul was eating Here? Can it make you weak, sick or even DIE [SLEEP]

NOT DISCERNING WHAT ????
What did Paul say the apparent “bread” and “wine” are?

Those who think the Catholic Church stuck it lucky with there teaching of NOT BY FAITH ALONE, maybe very surprised if they spend some time on this subject.

Blessings and love to you all.

Hi SS,
Certainly we must treat the symbols of Christ and his body with true respect.
But it is an entirely different story to then worship the bread and wine AS Christ.
That is what the Mass and the benediction ceremony is all about. Worship of bread and wine!

Even if it could be accepted, as you do, that it IS the body and blood of Christ rather that representing the body and blood is that all you think Christ IS if it is the object of your worship?

Do you think Christ IS, just a physical body,a natural human body?

April 5, 2006 at 6:19 am#12437