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So do you agree with YHWH when He said He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty?
Yes or no?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 05 2007,21:01) So do you agree with YHWH when He said He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty? Yes or no?
Hi Is 1.18,
Almighty God is always Almighty God no matter how and when He manifests in His creation-through visions, through dreams, through His angel, through a donkey, through His beloved Son, through His prophets and the sons of the resurrection.That's a BIG inference to take from that verse……
Here's a simpler and more biblical way to look at it, if YHWH claimed to have appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, then God Almighty HAS BEEN SEEN by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Hi Is 1.18,
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.These are the verses referred to.
Gen 17
1Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, (A)the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am God (B)Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be ©blameless.Gen 35
11God also said to him,
“I am (A)God Almighty;
(B)Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a ©company of nations shall come from you,
And (D)kings shall come forth from you
Gen 45
” 3Then Jacob said to Joseph, “(A)God Almighty appeared to me at (B)Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,Does
appeared to
mean
was seen?Number 7200
Transliteration:
ra'ah {raw-aw'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
2095
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
see 879, look 104, behold 83, shew 68, appear 66, consider 22, seer 12, spy 6, respect 5, perceive 5, provide 4, regard 4, enjoy 4, lo 3, foreseeth 2, heed 2, misc 74Total: 1343
Definition:
to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
(Qal)
to see
to see, perceive
to see, have vision
to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
to look at, gaze at
(Niphal)
to appear, present oneself
to be seen
to be visible
(Pual) to be seen
(Hiphil)
to cause to see, show
to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
(Hophal)
to be caused to see, be shown
to be exhibited to
(Hithpael) to look at each other, facePossibly
but not necessarily.
Be careful of making assumptions.
I would believe Jesus when he said no man has seen God.NH
You should take off your Henotheistic Glasses and read Is 1:18 post again!
Whos knows you just might learn something!
Is 1:18 response to t8 Posted: June 01 2007,22:28
Let me preface this rebuttal by saying congratulations t8, this is without doubt your best effort to date, and finally we’ve moved away from the verses that (in your mind) disprove the trinity, but in reality merely show The Father and Son are two different persons. Although, I do note that you edited your post after submission without bothering to acknowledge or annotate what it was that was changed. This sentence of your’s…..
Quote This scripture is a slap in the face for those who promote the Trinity Doctrine.
….once read “This scripture is a slap in the face with a wet bus ticket for those who promote the Trinity Doctrine” when I first read the post, which makes me wonder how much more of the post’s content was surreptitiously altered after it was posted, without any reference by you of the actual changes. BTW, the phrase “slap on the face with a wet bus ticket” is a humorously-inappropriate cliché to use in the context in which you used it (isn't it called mixing your metaphors?), but I guess you picked that up – that’s why you changed it. In future, if you alter your posts in this debate after you submit them it would be nice if you let me and others know.Let me see if I can accurately encapsulate the key point of you post with this syllogism:
Major premise: YHWH is invisible, and has not ever been seen by men.
Minor premise: Christ was and is visible. He has been seen by men.
Conclusion: Therefore Christ cannot be God.On the surface this looks like a logical dilemma for a trinitarian. If it’s true that God has never been seen then, ostensibly, it puts trinitarians in a tight spot. In logic, the law of noncontradiction (also called the law of contradiction) states that “one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time”. And it would indeed be a contravention of this law of logic if both the minor and major premises above hold true.
But is it true that YHWH has never been seen? T8 maintains that it is, and qualified the assertion by writing that men have occasionally seen a “messenger/angel” of YHWH. But is this born out by OT texts? I don’t think it is and I’ll cite five passages where it is indisputable that YHWH has been seen:
1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14”Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19”For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.T8 would argue that this is not YHWH in view here but a “representative of God”, but that is NOT what the text says. It reads : “The LORD appeared unto him”. There are no grammatical ambiguities here, the language is plain.
In the above text we have the following clearly recorded:
- YHWH appeared to Abraham (v1)
- YHWH ate with Abraham (v8)
- YHWH spoke to Abraham (v13)
- YHWH and Abraham negotiated over the Sodom’s fate (v26ff)
- YHWH departed from Abraham’s presence (v33)
What’s striking about this narrative is that the person designated YHWH, frequently employed first person singular pronoun “I” when speaking. He also implicitly claimed for Himself sovereign rights that are exclusive to YHWH. For instance, in verse 19 the personage identified in the text as YHWH declared that He has chosen Abraham to be the conduit for Israel’s blessings. Can a non-divine delegate rightly state this? The answer is no. Furthermore, in verse 26 this person negotiated with Abraham over the Sodom’s fate and YHWH conceded that He would spare the whole place on account of 50 righteous men? Does a non-divine appointee of YHWH have the mandate to make a decision on the annihilation of an entire city? Again, it's no. A non-divine messenger would not speak this way at all. He would say something akin to “If the LORD finds in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then He will spare all the place for their sakes”. No messenger can rightly speak as this One spoke, unless it was YHWH that was speaking. What we see in Genesis 18 is multiple instances where Abraham’s visitor speaks as YHWH, not for YHWH. And that’s a key distinction to highlight. So, not only is the visitor explicitly called YHWH in the passage, he is also ascribed the authority/prerogatives that exclusively belong to YHWH. The details in this chapter overwhelmingly affirm that YHWH visited Abraham by the oaks of Mamre.
Despite the overt clarity of the text though, t8 would say it’s impossible for YHWH to do the things ascribed to Him in Genesis 18, to this I’ll counter with the rhetorical question YHWH posed to Abraham in the very same chapter I quoted:
“Is anything too difficult for the LORD?”
YHWH can take the form of a man and enter our time-space continuum. It’s not “too difficult” for YHWH to do anything that does not compromise His Holy nature, and we should not unduly seek to place limitations on the Almighty God that scripture does not place. The personage that visited Abraham really was YHWH, not a minion sent on YHWH’s behalf. But how do we know this for certain? YHWH tells us so in Exodus 6:3.
2. Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty[/b], but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”YHWH appeared to Abraham as God Almighty (el shadday). It cannot be said more plainly, YHWH “appeared” to Abraham not in the form of a non-divine messenger but as YHWH, God Almighty. Should we believe the statement YHWH has made here? I think we should take YHWH at His word.
YHWH also interacted with Moses, speaking to Him “face to face”:
3. Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”Is it possible to speak with someone “face to face” and not see them? YHWH reiterates this in Numbers 12:6-8, using even more descriptive language:
4. Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “Here Moses is NOT spoken to in a dream or vision like some of the other prophets but rather “mouth to mouth”, YHWH goes on to say that He allows Moses to behold (look intently at) the form of the LORD. Again, it could not be more plainly stated that Moses saw YHWH.
Moreover, on at least one occasion YHWH was seen by a multitude of people:
5. Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”Again we have very clear and precise language being used. No one could honestly mistake the meanings of these two phrases:
“they saw the God of Israel”
“they beheld God”So has YHWH been seen? Evidently so! It’s difficult to discount even one of the above passages, let alone all five of them, and what I annotated is by no means the sum total of passages in the Bible that show YHWH has been seen by men. It’s just a selection of some of them.
So where does this place t8, and his assertion that the Father has not been seen? In a tight spot, as I would see it. He is faced with a glaring contradiction for which he has offered no tenable explanation. The trinitarians, as opposed to t8, have an explanation for this.
From a trinitarian’s perspective, I see two possible scenarios that could account for the contravention between 1 John 4:12 and the passages I cited:
1. It’s true that the Father has never been seen but another, also named YHWH, has.
2.The word theos in 1 John 4:12 does not refer to the Father, but the triune God.I think both are plausible, but on balance I would favour #1. This is because in consulting passages penned by John of the same basis theme (as 1 John 4:12) it’s explicit that “theos” does refer to the father. These three verses bear this out expressly:
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.So on this point let me state that I concur with t8, no one has ever seen the Father, this appears to be the only logical conclusion to draw from John’s writings above. But it’s even more scripturally obvious that men have seen YHWH. Which begs the question – if not he Father, then Who was the person described as YHWH that has been seen? I surmise that the only reasonable candidate is the preincarnate Yeshua. We know from Paul and John’s writings that Yeshua existed in the “form” (nature) of God and “was God” (Phil 2:6, John 1:1). We know from Hebrews chapter 1 that He has the credentials to be YHWH, and from Zechariah chapter 14 that he is rightly called YHWH. We also know that Yeshua featured in the OT (John 5:39, 46). I think He featured prominently, more than most people imagine and I cite this passage as evidence of this proposition:
Luke 24:13-27
13And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17And He said to them, “What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?” 19And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21″But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22″But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24″Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.”25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26″Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.There are some important points to take from this passage, the first being that this was an extensive Bible lesson that Yeshua gave these men. The walk was seven miles (approx. 12km) long and this would have taken hours to complete (about 3 ½ hours at the average human walking pace of 1 meter per second). The topic of the Yeshua’s study was Himself, as He was described in the OT scriptures. But the material He spoke about was not restricted to a few messianic passages from the Torah. Luke explained that the material that Yeshua used in His dissertation began at Moses, proceeded through all the prophets and in fact encompassed “all the scriptures”. In other words Yeshua had A LOT of material at His disposal to draw upon to explain to the men the things in the Bible that pertained to Himself! Details like this should not be overlooked.
Yeshua also made comments such as:
Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.I don’t think this was a reference to His earthly existence, the language doesn’t fit. He spoke the same way YHWH spoke of the Israelite in the OT. I think Yeshua, here in verse 37, implicitly claims to have foreknowledge of, and a vested interest in, the Israelites before His incarnation. It’s interesting that He invoking the idiom of “wings” in the context of a desire to protect, an idiom that was commonly ascribed to YHWH to describe the protection/refuge He offered (refer: Ruth 2:12, Psalm 17:8, 36:7, 57:1, 61:4, 63:7, 91:4).
Jude 5, is perhaps a more explicit example:
Jude 4-5
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the
grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.Jude, in verse 4 of his letter, used the appellative “kurios” to denote Yeshua in an exclusive sense (“our only Lord”)and “theos” was used in reference to His Father. Then in the very next next verse kurios was used to describe an identity who saved “a people out of the land of Egypt”, with “the people” being an obvious reference to Israel. The Lord here is clearly Yeshua! Early and reliable manuscripts have “Jesus” in place of “the Lord” in verse 5. Here is what the NET Bible Commentary on Jude 5 records about this verse:
” The reading *Ihsou'” (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy strong support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 vg et alii), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they typically exchanged kuvrio” (kurios, “Lord”) or qeov” (qeos, “God”) for *Ihsou'” (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading qeoV” Cristov” [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for *Ihsou'”). As difficult as the reading *Ihsou'” is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate. sn (1:5) The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp's rule (see tn (1:5) on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.”
John, who penned the verse on which t8’s proof text is based also believed Yeshua existed as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the flesh. He, alluding to Isaiah 6, wrote:
John 12:37-41
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/u] 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].This was the passage of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:
Isaiah 6:1-10
1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be the pre-incarnate Yeshua, He is unambiguously identified at the subject of the passage in verse John 12 v37, by virtue of being the nearest antecedent to verse 41. The “His” in this verse refers to Yeshua. The subject of the Isaiah passage is patently identified as YHWH. The subject of the John 12:37-41 passage is unmistakably Yeshua. It is obvious to me that John considered Jesus to be YHWH. I see no other plausible explanation.
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Yeshua's = YHWH’s) glory, and he spoke of Him (Yeshua = YHWH).”
Yeshua is also described as the Creator of Heaven and Earth in the NT, as my first debate submission outlined:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….78;st=0And He fulfilled prophecies that could only be fulfilled by YHWH, as was the subject of my second submission:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….11;st=0So, there is very good evidence to substantiate my assertion that it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT. This would make sense of the verse t8 used for his proof text – 1 John 4:12 – and properly accounts for the contradiction t8 faces which is God not being able to be seen, yet at the same time being seen.
So at this point I pose this rhetorical question – after considering some of the passages cited thus far in my rebuttal, is 1 John 4:12 more problematic for trinitarians, or t8 himself??
I suggest that the explicit nature of passages like Genesis Ch 18, where Abraham's visitor is designated with the tetragammatron “YHWH” in the text and the divine prerogatives, such as deciding the fate of a city and appointing whom is to become the conduit for blessing on an entire nation, are predicated of Him, mean that scriptures like 1 John 4:12 are far more difficult for a henotheist like t8 than a trinitarian. When his argument to explain the OT texts that overtly contradict 1 John 4:12 are distilled down to it's basic essence, what we are left with is this – scripture is not saying what it manifestly appears to say. But, IMO, the sheer weight of evidence for YHWH being seen by men overwhelms his contention that He wasn't.
At this point I should address this point t8 made:
Quote But where do such scriptures exist. Well we know in the Old Testament there are a bunch of scriptures that talk about men who claim to have seen God. If I was ask anyone familiar with the bible to name one man that saw God, many would surely answer Moses.
But did Moses actually see God himself? Or did Moses see God's glory and a representative of God?
Well the answer is that latter. Moses spoke to YHWH, but through the messenger/angel of YHWH.
Exodus 3:1-14
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush
does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God…Moses had an encounter with YHWH in this passage. How do we know? In verse 6 we read “”I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.”. It can’t be plainer than that really…..the identity in the bush explicitly introduces Himself as YHWH and furthermore commands Moses to take off his shoes because he was standing on Holy ground. Is the ground in which a delegate for YHWH appears Holy? No. So once again we have an instance where the “angel of the Lord” speaks AS YHWH, not FOR YHWH. The “angel of the Lord” often appears in OT scripture AS YHWH. Remember that the Hebrews word for angel (malak) simply mean ‘messenger’ and is used in reference to men, the hosts of Heaven (actual created angels) and YHWH. From a trinitarian perspective one member of the triune God can legitimately send another and He would be both “YHWH” and the messenger of YHWH. This makes sense of a lot of passages in which the titles “YHWH” and the angel of YHWH are used interchangeably in the text and the messenger, without hesitation naturally assumes the prerogative/authority of YHWH (which of course is patent blasphemy for anyone who is not YHWH). There are a great number of passages I could appeal to here, but Genesis 22:15-18 is perhaps one of the most best:
Genesis 22:11-18
11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the LORD it will be provided.” 15Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18″In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”Just a few quick observations about this text:
- LORD (YHWH) and “the angel of the LORD (YHWH)” are used interchangeably.
- The angel of the LORD declared that Abraham withheld the sacrifice of his Son from HIM. Abraham, of course, was sacrificing His Son for YHWH.
- The angel of the LORD swore “by Myself”, with the next verse making it plain that it was YHWH that swore.
- The angel prophesied that He would greatly bless Abraham, making a great nation out of his seed, and by this multiplication of his seed all the nations would be blessed. ONLY YHWH can rightly make these claims. It would be audacious and presumptuous for a messenger who is not YHWH utter such a prophecy.
- The angel of the LORD declared that the entire Earth would be blessed because Abraham obeyed his voice.
There is no question at all that the angel of the LORD was YHWH, representatives Who are not YHWH can not rightly speak the way the “angel of the Lord” did. They unequivocally would not use first person, singular pronouns (myself, I) when making proclamations that only YHWH can rightly make and bring about. They simply do not have this right.
So to quickly summarise, I dispute t8’s assertion that YHWH has never been seen. YHWH has indeed been seen – He appeared to Moses “as God Almighty” (Ex 6:3). I also gave an explanation for the ostensible contradiction that exists between the ‘God has been seen’ and ‘God has not ever been seen’ passages, and I think it’s far more plausible and faithful to the scriptures as a whole than t8’s postulation. Remember T8’s objective in this debate is to produce credible evidence disproving the trinity, but he has categorically failed to do this, in fact the verse he used (1 John 4:12) gives credence to the validity of the doctrine, as considered alongside the verses I cited it implies that YHWH has been seen by men, BUT it was NOT the person of the Father. Who else fits the bill if not the preincarnate Yeshua? If YHWH is triune then one member can use another as a representative, and the personage sent is both YHWH and the messenger (malak) of YHWH at the same time. Given the explicit nature of the texts that affirm YHWH has been seen, I content that the major premise of the syllogism (YHWH is invisible, and has not ever been seen by men) is patently false, therefore your argument is invalidated on this basis.
Blessings
Excellent post brother!
Five stars. *****
Hi W,
Was the Truth lying?
Should we prefer your words?
It has never been your approval we have sought.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2007,09:38) Hi W,
Was the Truth lying?
Should we prefer your words?
It has never been your approval we have sought.
NHI think the words of God through Is 1:18 are far more honest and sound than yours.
No offence!
But you have shown nothing but disbelief for the words of OT scriptures and scriptures as a whole.
The bible is like a box of chocalates to you. You take what you like and you never know what we are gonna get!
When it sosnt taste good to you, you spit it out and claim it didnt belong in the box!
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 05 2007,21:24) t8
Quote
Never mind for now that there are Old Testament scriptures that say that men saw God, you have to admit that as it stands now, you disagree strongly with John, Paul, and Timothy.It's time for a Bible study boys!
Funny that you should pick that up.CultB it is about one point at a time.
Then we move to the next point.But if someone tries to dodge the first point by using another, then the debate is not solving the issues. It only encourages ignorance and lack of accountability.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,21:39) Hi Is 1.18,
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.These are the verses referred to.
Gen 17
1Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, (A)the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am God (B)Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be ©blameless.Gen 35
11God also said to him,
“I am (A)God Almighty;
(B)Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a ©company of nations shall come from you,
And (D)kings shall come forth from you
Gen 45
” 3Then Jacob said to Joseph, “(A)God Almighty appeared to me at (B)Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,Does
appeared to
mean
was seen?Number 7200
Transliteration:
ra'ah {raw-aw'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
2095
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
see 879, look 104, behold 83, shew 68, appear 66, consider 22, seer 12, spy 6, respect 5, perceive 5, provide 4, regard 4, enjoy 4, lo 3, foreseeth 2, heed 2, misc 74Total: 1343
Definition:
to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
(Qal)
to see
to see, perceive
to see, have vision
to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
to look at, gaze at
(Niphal)
to appear, present oneself
to be seen
to be visible
(Pual) to be seen
(Hiphil)
to cause to see, show
to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
(Hophal)
to be caused to see, be shown
to be exhibited to
(Hithpael) to look at each other, facePossibly
but not necessarily.
Be careful of making assumptions.
I would believe Jesus when he said no man has seen God.
I don't think you have even tried to address the language used in Exodus 6:2-3. That notwithstanding, how do you interpret Numbers 12:6-8?Numbers 12:6-8
6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . .Quote (t8 @ June 06 2007,17:20) Funny that you should pick that up. CultB it is about one point at a time.
Then we move to the next point.But if someone tries to dodge the first point by using another, then the debate is not solving the issues. It only encourages ignorance and lack of accountability.
T8, the impasse we now have is a function of the excluded middle (or false dichotomy) fallacy that you created, it is not due to an unwillingness to honestly answer the question on my part. I gave you the most honest and accurate answer I could, considering all the biblical data I'm aware of on the subject of YHWH being visible/invisible to men. To chose one of the either/or options you gave would have meant partaking in your fallacy. I mean if I asked you this question:-Q) Are men short or tall?
…and expected me to chose one of the either/or answers before “we could move on”, I would, in the exact same sense, be guilty of enforcing the excluded middle logical fallacy. Notwithstanding the obvious fact that a predefined threshold dividing shortness from tallness has not been given, the most accurate answer is neither; some men are short and some are tall.
I think you set up the impasse as a means of avoiding the questions that you had confronting you.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 06 2007,19:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,21:39) Hi Is 1.18,
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.These are the verses referred to.
Gen 17
1Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, (A)the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am God (B)Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be ©blameless.Gen 35
11God also said to him,
“I am (A)God Almighty;
(B)Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a ©company of nations shall come from you,
And (D)kings shall come forth from you
Gen 45
” 3Then Jacob said to Joseph, “(A)God Almighty appeared to me at (B)Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,Does
appeared to
mean
was seen?Number 7200
Transliteration:
ra'ah {raw-aw'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
2095
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
see 879, look 104, behold 83, shew 68, appear 66, consider 22, seer 12, spy 6, respect 5, perceive 5, provide 4, regard 4, enjoy 4, lo 3, foreseeth 2, heed 2, misc 74Total: 1343
Definition:
to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
(Qal)
to see
to see, perceive
to see, have vision
to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
to look at, gaze at
(Niphal)
to appear, present oneself
to be seen
to be visible
(Pual) to be seen
(Hiphil)
to cause to see, show
to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
(Hophal)
to be caused to see, be shown
to be exhibited to
(Hithpael) to look at each other, facePossibly
but not necessarily.
Be careful of making assumptions.
I would believe Jesus when he said no man has seen God.
I don't think you have even tried to address the language used in Exodus 6:2-3. That notwithstanding, how do you interpret Numbers 12:6-8?Numbers 12:6-8
6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . .
Hi Is 1.18,
Why should I reply to such a critical audience?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2007,02:02) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 06 2007,19:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,21:39) Hi Is 1.18,
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.These are the verses referred to.
Gen 17
1Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, (A)the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
“I am God (B)Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be ©blameless.Gen 35
11God also said to him,
“I am (A)God Almighty;
(B)Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a ©company of nations shall come from you,
And (D)kings shall come forth from you
Gen 45
” 3Then Jacob said to Joseph, “(A)God Almighty appeared to me at (B)Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,Does
appeared to
mean
was seen?Number 7200
Transliteration:
ra'ah {raw-aw'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
2095
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
see 879, look 104, behold 83, shew 68, appear 66, consider 22, seer 12, spy 6, respect 5, perceive 5, provide 4, regard 4, enjoy 4, lo 3, foreseeth 2, heed 2, misc 74Total: 1343
Definition:
to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
(Qal)
to see
to see, perceive
to see, have vision
to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
to look at, gaze at
(Niphal)
to appear, present oneself
to be seen
to be visible
(Pual) to be seen
(Hiphil)
to cause to see, show
to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
(Hophal)
to be caused to see, be shown
to be exhibited to
(Hithpael) to look at each other, facePossibly
but not necessarily.
Be careful of making assumptions.
I would believe Jesus when he said no man has seen God.
I don't think you have even tried to address the language used in Exodus 6:2-3. That notwithstanding, how do you interpret Numbers 12:6-8?Numbers 12:6-8
6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . .
Hi Is 1.18,
Why should I reply to such a critical audience?
Nick. You ask “Why should I reply to such a critical audience?”Is it because you have no Biblical response for Isaiha?
It seems to me that both you and t8 are well and truly stumped!
Exo 6:2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.Is 1:18
Quote I don't think you have even tried to address the language used in Exodus 6:2-3. That notwithstanding, how do you interpret Numbers 12:6-8? Is1:18
Quote Numbers 12:6-8
6 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . .Come on boys; one last try.
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 05 2007,02:24) 94 Quote You have a habit of adding your little tid-bit to God's Word. The scripture says that no man has ever seen God that includes Moses, and nothing is said about Christ. t8
Quote Never mind for now that there are Old Testament scriptures that say that men saw God, you have to admit that as it stands now, you disagree strongly with John, Paul, and Timothy. It's time for a Bible study boys!
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)
Arians including the JWs sect say that Jesus is not God because no man has seen God, but men saw Jesus. In saying this, however, they miss the point of John 1:18. Here the term God is used in a restrictive sense in reference to the Father–just as it is used in reference to the Son at Isaiah 9:6. Context at Isaiah 9:6 reveals that God in that verse is the “child” who is born, the “son” who is given, yet this cannot be used to prove that the Father is not God.
So, the fact that the title God is used specifically of the Father at certain other verses–such as John 1:18–cannot be used as an argument against the deity of Christ.
It is the Father who “no man has ever seen.” The words at John 1:18 roughly parallel those of John 6:46, “No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”
These verses are referring to God the Father because Thomas saw God the Son when he exclaimed “my Lord and my God”
Did anyone ever see God face to face?
The Bible is very clear on this question:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46)
These are important verses, since they tell us no one has seen God. Yet, we know from the Old Testament that people did see God. For example
Exodus 24:9-11:
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel.Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Consider also Genesis 18, where Abraham has three visitors, one of whom turns out to be the Lord: Yahweh.
Look at Isaiah 6:1-3 where Isaiah saw God “high and lifted up” in the same way he saw the Seraphim;
In Numbers 12:6-8 it tells us that Moses spoke to God face to face, rather than through visions or dreams, and that he sees “the form of God”;
Also Judges 13:20-23 explains that the father of Samson is afraid he might die because he has seen God. He is comforted by his wife when she points out that God would not have accepted their offering if he intended to kill them.Job 42:5 says that Job saw God.
The arians on this forum try to put the twist on scripture when it does not support them, but I cannot help them with their problem.
Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus!
This isn't so surprising considering that Romans 10:9-13 records:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Paul has here quoted from Joel 2:32
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered:
Paul applies this statement to Christ.
Look also at Acts 2:21 where the same passage is quoted from Joel concerning Jehovah and Peter applies it to Jesus.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus! Once again we see that Jesus is Jehovah God
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi CB:After reading every thing that you posted here, what it comes down to is your conclusion which states:
Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus! Once again we see that Jesus is Jehovah God
And my response:
Your conclusion is an assumption which you can not support with scripture.
God Bless
Quote 1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14″Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19″For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.You forgot verse 2.
GENESIS 18:1-2
“Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam′re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth.”We are told that Jehovah appeared to him. The next sentence explains that three men (angels in human form) standing before him.
GENESIS 19:1
“Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth.”Abraham had three visitors, one of whom he addressed as “Jehovah.” The visitors were actually angels, but one of them came in Jehovah’s name and was acting in His name. When that angel spoke and acted, it was, in effect, Jehovah speaking and acting. By this means, Jehovah told Abraham that He had heard a loud “cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah.” Jehovah stated: “I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 18:3, 20, 21) Of course, Jehovah’s message did not mean that the Almighty would “go down” in person. Rather, he again sent angels to represent him. (Genesis 19:1)
While this account and some others don't specifify that it isn't Jehovah who is actually there, there are other accounts that say it is Jehovah, when it clearly is not, only his representatives.
Jehovah God himself had not appeared in the flesh to Abraham, for ‘no man may see Him and yet live.’ (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18)
Since Abraham was a man, who did continue to live, it is obvious that it wasn't Jehovah himself. Case closed.What we have here, is
1. –a number of scriptures which are very clear, that no man has seen God or may see God and live.
2. –And we have other scriptures that make it seem that people have seen God.
3. –other accounts that say that people have seen God, whereas complentary scriptures make clear that it was really angels.So, in view of #1, which is clear and number #3, it's hard to look at #2 and say that these were actually seeing Jehovah without this being a huge contradiction.
#3 allows for another possibility, the correct one.Quote Despite the overt clarity of the text though, t8 would say it’s impossible for YHWH to do the things ascribed to Him in Genesis 18, to this I’ll counter with the rhetorical question YHWH posed to Abraham in the very same chapter I quoted: “Is anything too difficult for the LORD?”
It is not T8 that says this, but rather God's word, the Bible repeats it. This argument is silly.
Quote 2. Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty[/b], but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”YHWH appeared to Abraham as God Almighty (el shadday). It cannot be said more plainly, YHWH “appeared” to Abraham not in the form of a non-divine messenger but as YHWH, God Almighty. Should we believe the statement YHWH has made here? I think we should take YHWH at His word.
So far, you're doing what T8 said you would. You're avoiding the plain scriptures that say no man has ever seen God Almighty.
Here, you quote a scripture that says God appeared to Abraham.If I said: “Firefighters appeared,” that's a little different than saying: “I see firefighters.”
Quote John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.This scripture explains the previous Hebrew Scriptures which speak of God appearing to ones. No man “hath seen God AT ANY TIME.”
But how do we explain that scripture you just stated? It was “the only begotten son” who had declared him.
This, this is a scripture which seems to very plainly, very simply explain all the scriputres in question.
I await your comment on it.You next go on to mention that Jehovah spoke “face to face” with Moses.
? This expression denotes intimate two-way conversation. Moses talked with God’s representative and orally received instruction from Jehovah through him. But Moses did not see Jehovah, since ‘no man can see God and yet live.’
In fact, Jehovah did not personally speak to Moses. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19.
DEUTERONOMY 34:10
“But there has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom Jehovah knew face to face,”EXODUS 33:20
“And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.””He knew Jehovah face to face. Yet, Exodus 33:20 is clear.
The Bible often speaks of God’s doing things when he actually did them through his representatives.
For instance, Genesis 1:1 tells us: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Were that all the Bible said about the origin of the universe, we would conclude that God created it directly, as if with his own hands. The Christian Greek Scriptures, however, enlarge our understanding. We read:
“By means of [the Son of God] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” (Colossians 1:16, 17)Quote 5. Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”Again we have very clear and precise language being used. No one could honestly mistake the meanings of these two phrases:
“they saw the God of Israel”
“they beheld God”This is ridiculous.
Imagine that there were, oh, another scripture or two that explained these scriptures. Would we ignore that scripture completely?Quote John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Imagine a book, that has only these two sentences:
1. “What you're saying makes sense, Is 1:18.”
2. “When I say “sense” in statement #1, I actually mean non-sense.”So, we could look at this book and conclude that you make sense. That is after all what point 1 says, right? Yes, but Point 2 CLARIFIES, AND EXPLAINS.
YOU seem blind to this. Why? (2 Cor 4:4 I suspect)
It always bothers me and frustrates me when people are blind to things that are so obvious. It hurts my head.
Please answer me Is 1:18. In the book I am speaking of, do you make sense?
The example I gave says something and then it clarifies, narrowing the meaning greatly. It's actually not the best example. If I spent more than a minute, I could probably come up with a better one. But I think, or hope you get my point. Yet, I'm not sure you do.Do you?
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