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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,10:57) So I see. I post what you believe with an “Icon” and that is “ridicule”? Have you not constantly ridiculed and belittled the Trinitarians calling them liars, decievers, ministers of satan, sisters of the whore, entrenched in Babylonian doctrines, proud, Etc, Etc, Those who have sought to show the truth and the contradictions in your theology?
Yet you can post your little “Icon” for Isa 1:18 and the Trinitarians and that is OK???
Whats the matter t8?
Icons have nothing to do with it. Did I mention icons?As for calling Trinitarians all those names that is also incorrect.
I have never judged any person in such manner. You should really get your facts straight before saying such things. I have judged doctrines, but not people. I am aware that a doctrine can be of Babylon, and that God's people can be imprisoned inside. Did you hear that? That is right, God's people can be inside.
Rather I say to those who are behind the walls of such doctrines to come out.
BTW, that little icon for Isaiah is an icon that Trinitarians use to describe the Trinity. It pretty much sums up the structure of those who are suppose to make up this God according to the most popular version of that doctrine. Of course I know that such an icon is but an idol or man-made representation of God. That is my point entirely.
For that which is revealed of God comes from his Spirit. Not from the mind of men. I have said all along that the Trinity doctrine is from the mind of man or even devil. The icon is appropriate because it is the Trinity doctrine in a diagram.
So that is the matter WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,10:57) Is that not what you believe that there is more than “One True Theos”? For if men and Angels of God are “Theos” then they would also be true right?
There is one true theos.Then there are theos that are under him and of him.
But there is one Almighty and one who is the highest. One who is the original. All others either represent or serve him, or they serve and represent something else that is not of God, i.e., false theos.
You can read about it yourself. There are theos that are not evil as would be understood by your view point because they are not the one true theos. Angels for example are called elohim and they are told to worship Elohim.
If you look with your own or cultural understanding then you could mistakenly believe that all other theos are false but the one true one. But you need to understand that scripture doesn't support this view point.
Similarly we could say that there is one Spirit as it is written. But we know angels are spirits and that there are probably millions or billions of angels. But the point is that there is one Spirit from whom all (perfect) spirits originate, and that is the Father. So are we to deny the existence of myriads of angels because it is written that there is one Spirit? No of course not WJ. You just need a little common sense to see that there is no contradiction.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this stuff to you. I suspect that you are not really lacking in the required intelligence, but rather that your heart is hard toward this, which in turn affects your understanding.
I guess that is why those who profess to be wise can become fools. It is because their hard hearts affect their understanding to the point that they become fools. It is not an intellectual thing, rather they cannot grasp simple things of God by reason of their own understanding.
In fact it could be in many cases that it requires more intelligence to understand someone's false doctrine, than to understand a simple revelation of God.
God is gracious and reveals things about himself to anyone of any intelligence. He is no respecter of men. But yes I admit that you probably need a certain intellectual ability to understand someone's false understanding. That also includes theories like Evolution too.
You know smart people can be deceived. Although I am not going so far as to say you are smart. I am just making a point.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 01 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,03:42) kenrch Yes I do worship Yeshua and give him the same praise and honour that is due him as to the Father.
This is what Jesus meant when he said…
Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Honour, Greek, “timao”, which means;
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateRevere; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
Venerate;
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotionSynonyms: reverence, worship and adore.
This means the same Value, devotion, and reverence is to be given to Yeshua as to the Father.
To the degree you homour Yeshua, its to that degree you honour the Father.
To me the word honour is a more powerfull word than worship because it includes worship.
God is a jealous God! He would not have man place this kind of honour on any other being.
Yet we see Yeshua getting this kind of honour, and that’s because Yeshua is our Lord and God.
Yeshua says…
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. Jn 4:24The Greek word for “worship” is 'proskuneo' which means…
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
This same Greek word 'Proskuneo' is found in the following scriptures being performed on Yeshua that Yeshua said should be performed on the Father, yet Yeshua not once rebukes nor discourages them for performing this act of worship on him.
Matt 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.Matt 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.Matt 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.Matt 15:25
Then came she and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, help me.Matt 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping (Proskuneo) him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Mk 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped (Proskuneo) him,Lk 24:52
And they worshipped (Proskuneo) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:Jn 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Notice all the “Worship” (Prokuneo) being given to Yeshua.
Yet not once can you find Yeshua saying “dont worship me worship God”.
Agaim the word “Proskeneo” that is being performed on him is the same word in Jn 4 Yeshua explained is to be the true worship of the Father in Spirit and in truth.
Now he could have used a different Greek word for honour or respect etc but he didnt.
Since some would say Proskuneo is used for honor or respect, then maybe they can give me a scripture that shows this word being directed toward any other being except Yeshua and the Father where it was not discouraged or is toward a false deity.
Check these out…
Jn 12:20
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship Proskuneo) at the feast:Acts 8:27
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo),Acts 24:11
Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo).So we see here examples of the Jews “worshipping” Proskueno God. The Word means “Worship”.
Paul uses the word…
1 Cor 14:25
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship (Proskuneo) God, and report that God is in you of a truthThen the writer of Hebrews tells us…
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship (Proskuneo) him.So we see here the Father says the Angels are to “Proskuneo” him.
Do you think it is Idolatry for the Angels to “Proskuneo” Yeshua?
Are we higher than the Angels yet?
60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows…
To the Father
Matt 4:10, Lk 4:8, Jn 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 12:20, Acts 8:27, 24:11, 1 Cor 14:25, Heb 11:21, Rev 3:9, Rev 4:10, 11:1, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4
To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,
The Father and Yeshua
Rev 5:14, Rev 7:11,
To satan or the beast or the dragon or Idols
Matt 4:9, Lk 4:7, Acts 7:43, Rev 9:20, 13:4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:15, 14:9, 14:11, 16:2,
To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused)
Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.
Notice my friend what is going on in heaven right now…
Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unt
o him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Notice who is sitting in the midst of the throne with the Father and being praised with the Father.
There is a lot of praise and honour and glory and blessing going on in heaven right now to the Father and and to the Lamb (Yeshua) sitting on the throne.
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to recieve honour and glory and praise both now and forever more.
Sing a new song unto him. For you alone are worthy O God to recieve blessing and honour and glory both now and forever.
Those who dont worship the Son better get used to it for one day…
Phil 2:10,11
…at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.This is the Fathers will.
Just wondering did the Jews bow and kiss the priest hand as the people today “worship” the Pope?How can Jesus say their is only one Good and then accept the same worship worthy of the Father?
Is Jesus worshipped in heaven?
Some will have to worship at others feet. Are these worshiped the same as Jesus and the Father.
Worship in this verse has the same definition.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
worship4352
G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): – worship.Mat 9:18 While he846 spake2980 these things5023 unto them,846 behold,2400 there came2064 a certain1520 ruler,758 and2532
worshiped4352 him,846 saying,3004 My3450 daughter2364 is even now dead:5053, 737 but235 come2064 and2532 lay2007 thy4675 hand5495 upon1909 her,846 and2532 she shall live.2198
We are to be worshiped! I would have to say that is a different kind of worship. But it is the same word used to describe the worship they gave Jesus.
God bless you WJ,
Ken
kenrchYou say…
Quote
How can Jesus say their is only one Good and then accept the same worship worthy of the Father?Did Jesus say he wasnt good? Do you believe he was not good?
He said this…
Matt 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good (agathos)
Master, what good (agathos) thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good (agathos)
? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.The Greek word for good is 'agathos' which means;
1) of good constitution or nature
2) useful, salutary
3) good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy
4) excellent, distinguished
5) upright, honourable
Notice he said…”there is none good but one, that is, God:
Seems to me he is saying he is God for he also says…
Lk 6:45
A good (agathos) man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.Did Jesus bring any evil treasure out of his heart?
He also says…
I am the good (kalos) shepherd: the good (kalos) shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
The Greek word for good here is 'kalos' which means…
1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable
a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent
b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends
Its used here…
Matt 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good (Kalos) tree bringeth forth good (kalos) fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Did Yeshua bring forth evil fruit? He was right, there is only one that is **Good**, that is God.
And we know Yeshua was Good!
Do you think he was **evil** kenrch?
So why did Jesus accept worship (prosuneo) the same worship he said to give to the Father?
You say…
Quote
Is Jesus worshipped in heaven?11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5Notice who is sitting in the midst of the throne with the Father and being praised and worshipped with the Father.
You say…
Quote
Some will have to worship at others feet. Are these worshiped the same as Jesus and the Father.Worship in this verse has the same definition.
Notice he didnt say that they would worship “them”, the overcomers, but rather they will “Worship (God) before their feet.
Rev 3:9 KJV
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Do you think Jesus is saying that he will cause men to worship men?
You say…
Quote
We are to be worshiped! I would have to say that is a different kind of worship. But it is the same word used to describe the worship they gave Jesus.No. Men are not to be worshipped. They are to worship bef
ore our feet. It dosnt say they shall worship us.Only God shall be worshipped!
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2007,15:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,10:57) So I see. I post what you believe with an “Icon” and that is “ridicule”? Have you not constantly ridiculed and belittled the Trinitarians calling them liars, decievers, ministers of satan, sisters of the whore, entrenched in Babylonian doctrines, proud, Etc, Etc, Those who have sought to show the truth and the contradictions in your theology?
Yet you can post your little “Icon” for Isa 1:18 and the Trinitarians and that is OK???
Whats the matter t8?
Icons have nothing to do with it. Did I mention icons?As for calling Trinitarians all those names that is also incorrect.
I have never judged any person in such manner. You should really get your facts straight before saying such things. I have judged doctrines, but not people. I am aware that a doctrine can be of Babylon, and that God's people can be imprisoned inside. Did you hear that? That is right, God's people can be inside.
Rather I say to those who are behind the walls of such doctrines to come out.
BTW, that little icon for Isaiah is an icon that Trinitarians use to describe the Trinity. It pretty much sums up the structure of those who are suppose to make up this God according to the most popular version of that doctrine. Of course I know that such an icon is but an idol or man-made representation of God. That is my point entirely.
For that which is revealed of God comes from his Spirit. Not from the mind of men. I have said all along that the Trinity doctrine is from the mind of man or even devil. The icon is appropriate because it is the Trinity doctrine in a diagram.
So that is the matter WJ.
t8You said…
Quote Icons have nothing to do with it. Did I mention icons? No, but I did for that is what I call it when you throw up some drawing like a pentagram and cast it against Trinitarians to ridicule their faith and insinuate as I have seen in the past that Trinitarians worship that Icon.
Did Isa 1:18 draw it? Did I?
So why do you get upset because I give a picture of the Henotheistic faith?
You say…
Quote
As for calling Trinitarians all those names that is also incorrect.I have never judged any person in such manner. You should really get your facts straight before saying such things. I have judged doctrines, but not people. I am aware that a doctrine can be of Babylon, and that God's people can be imprisoned inside. Did you hear that? That is right, God's people can be inside.
Word games t8. When you post those statements regarding “Doctrines” as you say, you are referring to certain ones like myself and Isa 1:18 and CB etc. You are now trying to hide behind the statement “I have judged doctrines” not men.
Really, do you think that all those times you have called me proud and stubborn that you were just talking about my doctrine?
You say…
Quote
Rather I say to those who are behind the walls of such doctrines to come out.Well that sure isnt me because if I was hiding I would have left a long time ago rather than put up with all the ridcule and condescending and patronizing of my faith which I have laid out bare, nothing held back.
I am not afraid to say there is “Only One True God” and that there are not other so called gods.
If I believed that then I would be calling Jesus and men gods!
I dont hear you calling Jesus a god. That is what you believe isnt it? Whos hiding?
You say…
Quote
BTW, that little icon for Isaiah is an icon that Trinitarians use to describe the Trinity. It pretty much sums up the structure of those who are suppose to make up this God according to the most popular version of that doctrine. Of course I know that such an icon is but an idol or man-made representation of God. That is my point entirely.Lets see, you say…
Quote
BTW, that little icon for Isaiah is an icon that Trinitarians use to describe the Trinity.Then you also say…
Quote
Of course I know that such an icon is but an idol or man-made representation of God. That is my point entirely.So the Icon for Isaiah is an Idol, therefore Isaiah and Trinitarians are worshipping an Idol?
Yet you say…
Quote
I have judged doctrines, but not people.This seems a little on the hypocritical side t8?
You say…
Quote For that which is revealed of God comes from his Spirit. Not from the mind of men. I have said all along that the Trinity doctrine is from the mind of man or even devil. The icon is appropriate because it is the Trinity doctrine in a diagram. So that is the matter WJ.
And this also is an Icon for a man made doctrine called Henotheism…
Father Almighty God
Son a god
Spirit what God is
men gods
I have also all along said that Henotheism is a man made doctrine that is full of holes and contradictions.
For instance, Henotheism believes God made all things through a lessor being than himself when scriptures clearly teach that God “By himself” “Alone” made all things!
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2007,15:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,10:57) Is that not what you believe that there is more than “One True Theos”? For if men and Angels of God are “Theos” then they would also be true right?
There is one true theos.Then there are theos that are under him and of him.
But there is one Almighty and one who is the highest. One who is the original. All others either represent or serve him, or they serve and represent something else that is not of God, i.e., false theos.
You can read about it yourself. There are theos that are not evil as would be understood by your view point because they are not the one true theos. Angels for example are called elohim and they are told to worship Elohim.
If you look with your own or cultural understanding then you could mistakenly believe that all other theos are false but the one true one. But you need to understand that scripture doesn't support this view point.
Similarly we could say that there is one Spirit as it is written. But we know angels are spirits and that there are probably millions or billions of angels. But the point is that there is one Spirit from whom all (perfect) spirits originate, and that is the Father. So are we to deny the existence of myriads of angels because it is written that there is one Spirit? No of course not WJ. You just need a little common sense to see that there is no contradiction.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this stuff to you. I suspect that you are not really lacking in the required intelligence, but rather that your heart is hard toward this, which in turn affects your understanding.
I guess that is why those who profess to be wise can become fools. It is because their hard hearts affect their understanding to the point that they become fools. It is not an intellectual thing, rather they cannot grasp simple things of God by reason of their own understanding.
In fact it could be in many cases that it requires more intelligence to understand someone's false doctrine, than to understand a simple revelation of God.
God is gracious and reveals things about himself to anyone of any intelligence. He is no respecter of men. But yes I admit that you probably need a certain intellectual ability to understand someone's false understanding. That also includes theories like Evolution too.
You know smart people can be deceived. Although I am not going so far as to say you are smart. I am just making a point.
t8You say…
Quote
There is one true theos.Then there are theos that are under him and of him.
Word games again t8. For it sounds like you are saying this..”there is “Only One True God”, but…?
I was always told watch out for the word “But”.
For usually it means this is true *But* not really because…
Like… “I believe in God “But”…
Or like.. ” God made all things by himself “But”…
Or like…”There is only One God and none other “But”…
You say…
Quote
But there is one Almighty and one who is the highest. One who is the original. All others either represent or serve him, or they serve and represent something else that is not of God, i.e., false theos.You can read about it yourself. There are theos that are not evil as would be understood by your view point because they are not the one true theos. Angels for example are called elohim and they are told to worship Elohim.
If you look with your own or cultural understanding then you could mistakenly believe that all other theos are false but the one true one. But you need to understand that scripture doesn't support this view point.
Similarly we could say that there is one Spirit as it is written. But we know angels are spirits and that there are probably millions or billions of angels. But the point is that there is one Spirit from whom all (perfect) spirits originate, and that is the Father. So are we to deny the existence of myriads of angels because it is written that there is one Spirit? No of course not WJ. You just need a little common sense to see that there is no contradiction.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this stuff to you. I suspect that you are not really lacking in the required intelligence, but rather that your heart is hard toward this, which in turn affects your understanding.
I guess that is why those who profess to be wise can become fools. It is because their hard hearts affect their understanding to the point that they become fools. It is not an intellectual thing, rather they cannot grasp simple things of God by reason of their own understanding.
In fact it could be in many cases that it requires more intelligence to understand someone's false doctrine, than to understand a simple revelation of God.
God is gracious and reveals things about himself to anyone of any intelligence. He is no respecter of men. But yes I admit that you probably need a certain intellectual ability to understand someone's false understanding. That also includes theories like Evolution too.
You know smart people can be deceived. Although I am not going so far as to say you are smart. I am just making a point.
It is true what you say about revelation t8. Revelation from God never contradicts itself though.As I have pointed out it is very clear that Theos is only used of the Father and Yeshua in a divine sense.
Further more you can not show me scripture or an example in the NT scriptures of an Apostle, desciple or believer calling any other being “Theos” in a divine context other than the Father and the Son!
Also you cannot show me where “Angels” are called “Theos” in the NT.
So I fiigure if a man is to stuck in their belief that they have formed outside of scriptures like the Henotheistic belief which is not found in scriptures for the Lord declares both in the Hebrew scriptures and in the NT scriptures there is only “One True Theos”, then that means the man needs revelation from God, or they need the Spirit of Truth.
Scriptures are clear…
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.So all your expounding and explaining about there being other “gods” is simply a smoke screen to cover up the fact that Yeshua is “True God” with the Father and the Spirit.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God! Jn 1:1
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,17:00) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 01 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,03:42) kenrch Yes I do worship Yeshua and give him the same praise and honour that is due him as to the Father.
This is what Jesus meant when he said…
Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Honour, Greek, “timao”, which means;
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateRevere; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
Venerate;
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotionSynonyms: reverence, worship and adore.
This means the same Value, devotion, and reverence is to be given to Yeshua as to the Father.
To the degree you homour Yeshua, its to that degree you honour the Father.
To me the word honour is a more powerfull word than worship because it includes worship.
God is a jealous God! He would not have man place this kind of honour on any other being.
Yet we see Yeshua getting this kind of honour, and that’s because Yeshua is our Lord and God.
Yeshua says…
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. Jn 4:24The Greek word for “worship” is 'proskuneo' which means…
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
This same Greek word 'Proskuneo' is found in the following scriptures being performed on Yeshua that Yeshua said should be performed on the Father, yet Yeshua not once rebukes nor discourages them for performing this act of worship on him.
Matt 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.Matt 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.Matt 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.Matt 15:25
Then came she and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, help me.Matt 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping (Proskuneo) him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Mk 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped (Proskuneo) him,Lk 24:52
And they worshipped (Proskuneo) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:Jn 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Notice all the “Worship” (Prokuneo) being given to Yeshua.
Yet not once can you find Yeshua saying “dont worship me worship God”.
Agaim the word “Proskeneo” that is being performed on him is the same word in Jn 4 Yeshua explained is to be the true worship of the Father in Spirit and in truth.
Now he could have used a different Greek word for honour or respect etc but he didnt.
Since some would say Proskuneo is used for honor or respect, then maybe they can give me a scripture that shows this word being directed toward any other being except Yeshua and the Father where it was not discouraged or is toward a false deity.
Check these out…
Jn 12:20
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship Proskuneo) at the feast:Acts 8:27
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo),Acts 24:11
Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo).So we see here examples of the Jews “worshipping” Proskueno God. The Word means “Worship”.
Paul uses the word…
1 Cor 14:25
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship (Proskuneo) God, and report that God is in you of a truthThen the writer of Hebrews tells us…
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship (Proskuneo) him.So we see here the Father says the Angels are to “Proskuneo” him.
Do you think it is Idolatry for the Angels to “Proskuneo” Yeshua?
Are we higher than the Angels yet?
60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows…
To the Father
Matt 4:10, Lk 4:8, Jn 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 12:20, Acts 8:27, 24:11, 1 Cor 14:25, Heb 11:21, Rev 3:9, Rev 4:10, 11:1, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4
To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,
The Father and Yeshua
Rev 5:14, Rev 7:11,
To satan or the beast or the dragon or Idols
Matt 4:9, Lk 4:7, Acts 7:43, Rev 9:20, 13:4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:15, 14:9, 14:11, 16:2,
To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused)
Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.
Notice my friend what is going on in heaven right now…
Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Notice who is sitting in the midst of the throne with the Father and being praised with the Father.
There is a lot of praise and honour and glory and blessing going on in heaven right now to the Father and and to the Lamb (Yeshua) sitting on the throne.
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to recieve honour and glory and praise both now and forever more.
Sing a new song unto him. For you alone are worthy O God to recieve blessing and honour and glory both now and forever.
Those who dont worship the Son better get used to it for one day…
Phil 2:10,11
…at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.This is the Fathers will.
Just wondering did the Jews bow and kiss the priest hand as the people today “worship” the Pope?How can Jesus say their is only one Good and then accept the same worship worthy of the Father?
Is Jesus worshipped in heaven?
Some will have to worship at others feet. Are these worshiped the same as Jesus and the Father.
Worship in this verse has the same definition.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
worship4352
G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): – worship.Mat 9:18 While he846 spake2980 these things5023 unto them,846 behold,2400 there came2064 a certain1520 ruler,758 and2532
worshiped4352 him,846 saying,3004 My3450 daughter2364 is even now dead:5053, 737 but235 come2064 and2532 lay2007 thy4675 hand5495 upon1909 her,846 and2532 she shall live.2198
We are to be worshiped! I would have to say that is a different kind of worship. But it is the same word used to describe the worship they gave Jesus.
God bless you WJ,
Ken
kenrchYou say…
Quote
How can Jesus say their is only one Good and then accept the same worship worthy of the Father?Did Jesus say he wasnt good? Do you believe he was not good?
He said this…
Matt 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good (agathos)
Master, what good (agathos) thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good (agathos)
? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.The Greek word for good is 'agathos' which means;
1) of good constitution or nature
2) useful, salutary
3) good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy
4) excellent, distinguished
5) upright, honourable
Notice he said…”there is none good but one, that is, God:
Seems to me he is saying he is God for he also says…
Lk 6:45
A good (agathos) man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.Did Jesus bring any evil treasure out of his heart?
He also says…
I am the good (kalos) shepherd: the good (kalos) shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
The Greek word for good here is 'kalos' which means…
1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable
a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent
b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends
Its used here…
Matt 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good (Kalos) tree bringeth forth good (kalos) fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Did Yeshua bring forth evil fruit? He was right, there is only one that is **Good**, that is God.
And we know Yeshua was Good!
Do you think he was **evil** kenrch?
So why did Jesus accept worship (prosuneo) the same worship he said to give to the Father?
You say…
Quote
Is Jesus worshipped in heaven?11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5Notice who is sitting in the midst of the throne with the Father and being praised and worshipped with the Father.
You say…
Quote
Some will have to worship at others feet. Are these worshiped the same as Jesus and the Father.Worship in this verse has the same definition.
Notice he didnt say that they would worship “them”, the overcomers, but rather they will “Worship (God) before their feet.
Rev 3:9 KJV
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Do you think Jesus is saying that he will cause men to worship men?
You say…
Quote
We are to be worshiped! I
would have to say that is a different kind of worship. But it is the same word used to describe the worship they gave Jesus.No. Men are not to be worshipped. They are to worship before our feet. It dosnt say they shall worship us.
Only God shall be worshipped!
Quote Only God shall be worshipped! That's right!
Again where in heaven is Jesus being worshiped? Praise, glory, every tongue will confess Jesus is “LORD” not God.
When comparing Himself to God Jesus said only ONE is good ~GOD~ the Father.
When scripture says that men will worship at the feet of other men (and that is what the scripture says) IS it the same WORSHIP that we give the Father?
Our “ELDER” brother is our Lord and is worthy of praise and honor and glory but NOT worship HE is NOT ~God~!
Read it again.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
We “worship God” And “rejoice in Jesus”.
Why read anything else into the word of God?
We rejoice in Jesus because through Jesus we “worship God” if it were not for Jesus we could not even do that correctly worshiping in SPIRIT.
Jesus Himself knows who is God, do you? The traditions of men teach that Jesus IS God But Jesus taught that HE was the Son of man. The first born from the dead! Although now being Spirit does not consider Himself to be Equal with the Father. Jesus Knows His place being the first BORN Son of God and we are to soon follow being His brethren. Rom. 8:28-29: 1Cor. 1:18.
Don't reject the gift the Father has given you.
Jesus is our Lord and we His brethren.
God bless,
Ken
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,17:00) Did Jesus say he wasnt good? Do you believe he was not good?
Jesus goodness comes from God.He was acknowledging that he is not the originator, but we can assume that he was a recipient.
Likewise we can be good too. But that goodness is not of ourselves is it? It is something we can receive and embrace, but we cannot say that we are good as in that WE are good.
Jesus acknowledged this too.
The Father who is the true God is the only one who is good. But he shares his nature and character so that we can receive things that are of him.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,18:17) Word games again t8. For it sounds like you are saying this..”there is “Only One True God”, but…?
Funny thing is that I didn't say “but”, although I have nothing against that word.Actually if you look closer what I am saying is what Paul says.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Paul didn't say but either, but he says what I am saying. In fact I am only repeating. Hey if you meet Paul one day, then you can dispute his words with him.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,17:40) So why do you get upset because I give a picture of the Henotheistic faith?
Call me what you like, but I see that it is very hard for you to call me a follower of the way or a believer.But I have noticed that men who are given labels, (who don't label themselves) are often given these labels by carnal men. Those who go by a label to start with should expect to be called by that which they say of themselves, like the Pharisees. Jesus called them Pharisees. But what name did Jesus and the Apostles go by? And what did they call Jesus and his followers? All kinds of names I suppose. However, Jesus never said of himself that he was a devil, deceiver, a cult, etc. But others called him such things.
Carnal men need to put everything into a box so they can judge with their carnal understanding.
You are a this and you are a that.
Even God is judged as a Trinity, and here is a triangle diagram that best represents that.You see labels, icons, idol, etc. It is the work of carnality.
Jesus never said he was a Trinitarian, Unitarian, or a Martian. He just spoke the truth. It is he who I look up to.
But if I followed you, then I would set about to put everyone in a box I suppose.
No thanks.
1 Corinthians 1:11-13
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?You see WJ? Who do you follow? Athanasius? Arius?
It doesn't matter. What matters is that we are led into all truth by the Spirit. If we try to give people names when they haven't called themselves a name, then often it is to make a division as mere men often do.If you call someone by the name or authority that they are under, then you are not making division, but speaking the truth and even being respectful.
When I address Trinitarians, it is because they come in that name and they even claim to come in that name too.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2007,10:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,17:00) Did Jesus say he wasnt good? Do you believe he was not good?
Jesus goodness comes from God.He was acknowledging that he is not the originator, but we can assume that he was a recipient.
Likewise we can be good too. But that goodness is not of ourselves is it? It is something we can receive and embrace, but we cannot say that we are good as in that WE are good.
Jesus acknowledged this too.
The Father who is the true God is the only one who is good. But he shares his nature and character so that we can receive things that are of him.
t8Do you think the “Word” that was with God and was God was not good?
Was there ever a time that Yeshua was not Good?
Show me scripture t8 when Yeshua the “Word” had a beginnig!
Do you now compare us to Yeshua?
You say…
Quote
He was acknowledging that he is not the originator, but we can assume that he was a recipient.No. He was acknowledging that no one was good but God!
You know what they say about assumptions dont you?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2007,10:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2007,18:17) Word games again t8. For it sounds like you are saying this..”there is “Only One True God”, but…?
Funny thing is that I didn't say “but”, although I have nothing against that word.Actually if you look closer what I am saying is what Paul says.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Paul didn't say but either, but he says what I am saying. In fact I am only repeating. Hey if you meet Paul one day, then you can dispute his words with him.
t81 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Do you see the part I highlighted?
so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth
What does that mean to you? You insist on saying that the Apostles were Polytheist or Henotheist but it is not found in scriptures.
As far as you saying what Paul says, why dont you put it all together and accept what John says after all he leaned on Jesus bosum.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The “Word” cannot change!
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Do you believe Johns words t8? John confirms this here…
1 Jn 5:20 NET
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.This is confirmed who the “Eternal life” is that was with the Father in the first chapter of this epistle…
1 Jn 1:1 NET
This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life –
2 and and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us).
3 What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship7 with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ).But of course you have no problem with Jesus being called “a god”.
The Arians and the JWs believe this also.
Major premise: “No one has ever seen God”–1 John 4:12
Minor premise: People have seen Jesus
Conclusion: Jesus is not the same one referred to in the major premise.This seems like pretty clear solid thinking to me.
Isaiah's first remarks were that “[God] has been seen,” and that therefore the whole premise of the argument that “No one has ever seen God” (1 Jo 4:12) is wrong.
God “has been seen” (Isaiah 1:18) [Not the scripture]
“No one has ever seen God.” (1 John 4:12)These two thoughts appear to be complete opposites. One of these thoughts is from the Bible. One is not.
“No man has seen God at any time.” That is pretty clear.
Whom, then, did Abraham see?
Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read:
“‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory.
Verses 21-23 state:“And Jehovah said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Jehovah. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read:
“He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he beholds.’”Moses beheld “the appearance of Jehovah” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written:
“They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.”
But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says:
“He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.”So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
Angelic Representatives
It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages.
Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: : “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”
That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read:
“Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’”
So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.Again, it says:
JUDGES 6:22
“Consequently Gid′e·on realized that it was Jehovah’s angel. At once Gid′e·on said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!””Was Jehovah's angel that he was seeing Jehovah? Or did it represent Jehovah? Here he spoke of seeing Jehovah face to face when he was actually speaking with Jehovah's angel.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” But again, it wasn't God, but rather the one who represented God. Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Isaiah 1:18, you speak of the law of contradiction.
Well, the Bible clearly says: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18)
You say: “YHWH has been seen.”One of these statements is wrong. You try to prove the first statement wrong by asserting that people have seen God (and thus contradicting the very scripture itself)
Clearly, it is your reasoning that is wrong. Clearly, as all those accounts show, when someone is speaking to Jehovah's angel, it is as though they were speaking to God himself. But they are not.As Jehovah himself said:
“no man may see me and yet live.” (Ex 33:20)David
You say…
Quote
Major premise: “No one has ever seen God”–1 John 4:12
Minor premise: People have seen Jesus
Conclusion: Jesus is not the same one referred to in the major premise.This seems like pretty clear solid thinking to me.
Of course Yeshua is not the Father!
What do you think about this…
Jn 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.Since Jesus is the “Image of God” he says if you have seen me than you have seen God. So what makes you think that when the patriots of old said they had seen God that they were lieing. We know and believe they had seen God for they seen Yeshua.
Jesus said…
Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.Now if no one has seen the Father but Yeshua, then when did he see him? If he is just a man then he could not have seen him for no man shall see him and live.
Therfore it seems pretty clear and solid thinkng to me that Yeshua is the “Word” that was with God and was God!
t8
You say…
Quote
Funny thing is that I didn't say “but”, although I have nothing against that word.Ah but you do say “But”.
Let me show you.
You say “there is only ONE true God” But, there are “other True gods”.
Isnt this what you believe? Please correct me if I am wrong!
the word God itself is inconceivable …. how can something before anything create everything out of nothing, including himself? you see its all imaginary and really universal knowledge from such places as atlantis or who ever was around before the egyptians. Jesus is not god no where in john 1;1 or anywhere else does it say make me a new religion and worship me my birth and my death these are mythical stories of the sun proven so is jesus real or not all sun gods are born live and die and promise to come back horus hasnt returned mithras tammuz or jesus hasnt returned either. unless u understand the light of the world and our risen savior returns everyday. the jewish god and four letter word is an expression of a big bang an explosion of energy like an eruption like sexual act and like a volcano thats why it was a jew that came up with big bang theory because thats what “yhwh” stands for the release of a build up of energy thts why u have moses at mount sinai a volcano where he speaks to the volcano thunder god and comes back glowing ,i bet, and hair white some ufoligist say aliens and radiation id say ash?!?! and then u have their temple original designs show masons reinacting the sexual act of the head of penis entering the vagina the creation the big bang?!?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,21:00) There is no question that YHWH has been seen….
Proof that your doctrine is really confusion and not of God.
The New Testament clearly states that no man can see God and no man has ever seen God.
Fact: I agree with this and you do not.1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Isiah obviously and clearly denies the above scriptures. No excuses. This is a fact.
Quote (t8 @ April 09 2010,10:35) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,21:00) There is no question that YHWH has been seen….
Proof that your doctrine is really confusion and not of God.
The New Testament clearly states that no man can see God and no man has ever seen God.
Fact: I agree with this and you do not.1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Isiah obviously and clearly denies the above scriptures. No excuses. This is a fact.
Then Moses and the Patriarchs were liars!The only way to reconcile the scriptures on this is that no man can see the “unappoachable light” that he dwells in.
Or did you over look that in 1 Tim 6:15, and 16.
Paul is talking about the “unapproachable light” that man cannot see, or God in all of his Glory or he would die!
But obviously God can reveal himself to man without all of his Glory and light.
Moses saw the backside of God because God covered his face from seeing all of his Glory!
Moses says he talked to God face to face as to a man, but t8 says Moses is a liar!
WJ
David:
Quote Major premise: “No one has ever seen God”–1 John 4:12
The word “to see” often refers to seeing with the comprehension. No man has comprehended God, the Only God who is after His kind, He has EXPLAINED Him.”Get it now David? Christ “explained” God so that men could “see” Him with their understanding.
Jacob saw a physical manifestation of God. He called the place where he saw God “Peniel” for I have seen God “face to face.” But Jacob had not comprehended (seen) the God he saw.
thinker
Isi1
this is your comment;1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14″Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19″For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.T8 would argue that this is not YHWH in view here but a “representative of God”, but that is NOT what the text says. It reads : “The LORD appeared unto him”. There are no grammatical ambiguities here, the language is plain.
Lev 18:30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’ ”
Lev 19:2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.Jn 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live
no one has seen the father,and lived so the only conclusion according to all encounter history in the scriptures it was a messager,not God in person.
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