Trinity – t8's proof text #3

[Proclaimer]

Cult B gives the same scriptures over and over again.

He also completely ignores these 100 scriptures:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

So he is selective. He selects that which he wants to hear and ignores the rest.

I think most who come here know of his tactics. We can only sit and watch what pride can do to a man. Let him be an example for us brothers. We do not want to err into intellectual pride and the doctrines of men. Instead we should trust in what is written in scripture.

Even if we do not understand that which we read, we can always pray that God will give us wisdom.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

Cult B gives the same scriptures over and over again. He also completely ignores these 100 scriptures:

t8.
All your so called “proof texts” have been exposed over and over again on this forum.  

I can see why you are afraid to debate Is 1:18.  This debate should have concluded long ago, but you keep on dragging your feet, stalling and evading Isaiha, his questions to you,  and the scripture that he provides. You might as well close the debate if you do not wish to dialogue with Isaiha.

t8. It seems that you choose to ignore a multitude of scripture. This is the camel that you swallow.

Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Compare
Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Compare
Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM   hath sent me unto you.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Compare
Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
With
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}
MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}
GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God. . .
+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord (Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
*LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Mat 1:21  And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins

*ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Psa 50:6  And the heavens shall declare his righteousness; For God is judge himself. Selah
Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen kneeling and praying to Jesus)

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, a
nd was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 26 2007,22:56)

t8. All your so called “proof texts” have been exposed over and over again on this forum. I can see why you are afraid to debate Is 1:18.

Your above quote (in bold) is not true. God is my witness.

I am not afraid of debating with Isaiah, far from it. The truth is that I cannot be bothered most of the time. What he brings is not really useful or agreeable with scripture. The only use that I can see is that it gives an opportunity to look at why each argument doesn't support the Trinity view and therefore strengthening the case that God is one and that he is the Father.

Although Isaiah does come up with new stuff from time and it is usually easy to refute, but it is also time consuming, and for that reason, I am not usually in a hurry to reply to him as I actually have more important things to do in life then debate with him.

You however, do not come up with anything new. Your stuff is rehashed and repeated over and over again, and yet most of us have read what you wrote and have seen through it a long time ago

Rehashing the same post over and over is not going to convince us, if we have already seen the weakness and lie in your original argument.

It is scripture that will sway the minds of those who desire the truth, not your Babylon interpretations of scripture.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

I am not afraid of debating with Isaiah, far from it. The truth is that I cannot be bothered most of the time. What he brings is not really useful or agreeable with scripture.

What Isaiah posts is in perfect harmony with the scripture. It is not agreeable with t8. That is your problem. That is why you are afraid to debate him.

By withdrawing from the debate, HeavenNet and your arian cause has been dealt a fatal blow. If you think that you have the truth then you should not fear scrutiny.

Isaiha had you stumped time after time during this debate and I can understand that you cannot take any more of it, but don't give the feeble excuse that you can't be bothered most of the time.

If your arian doctine is credible then you cannot justify running away from the debate after only three of Isaiha's texts. Only three and you gave up!

[charity]

CB

that post has nothing fruitful in it? why??

I think Isaiah has done well in presenting his views; and some interesting thoughts have come out of his work; but now is it just come down to a demanding?

Hi Isaiah hope you are well; God bless you

[Mr. Steve]

Whose Isaiah? Is that the Isaiah 1:18 scripture? I haven't seen much of him recently either.

Steven

[charity]

O mr steve sorry.. HE'S our own VERY faithful member……… Is 1;18
AND with everything; He goes with us to all the corners to look… so we may all have it set out to see; If thats Gods will for us here; I am thankful; for Is… uses the whole bible not just five verse; he shows hes prepared to seek.
And he needs his rest, he works hard to keep his family also
I know each one has a life; and Im so thankful God has sent you mr steve; your words and thoughts to me are as a tree of life blooming up

charity

[Cult Buster]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,14:49)

Whose Isaiah?  Is that the Isaiah 1:18 scripture? I haven't seen much of him recently either.   Steven

Hi Steven.

Is 1:18 or Isaiah, is one of the two main players in this forum's debate. This debate was supposed to be between t8 and Is 1:18 until t8 got upset and gave up.

It would have been t8's turn to present his 4th proof text, but he has not yet responded to the questions from Isaiah's 3rd text.          John 1:1 has got t8 perplexed.

                                   ………and the Word was God………..

[charity]

Good night Is 1:18

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,00:41)

Is 1:18 or Isaiah, is one of the two main players in this forum's debate. This debate was supposed to be between t8 and Is 1:18 until t8 got upset and gave up. It would have been t8's turn to present his 4th proof text, but he has not yet responded to the questions from Isaiah's 3rd text. John 1:1 has got t8 perplexed.

Too much CultB.

That is another untruth because I have replied.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=140

One more untruth and we have a 3rd witness, although 2 is enough.

You shouldn't fire off random words like that. It is wise to control the tongue.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 31 2007,09:52)

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,00:41) Is 1:18 or Isaiah, is one of the two main players in this forum's debate. This debate was supposed to be between t8 and Is 1:18 until t8 got upset and gave up. It would have been t8's turn to present his 4th proof text, but he has not yet responded to the questions from Isaiah's 3rd text.          John 1:1 has got t8 perplexed. Too much CultB. That is another untruth because I have replied. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=140 One more untruth and we have a 3rd witness, although 2 is enough. You shouldn't fire off random words like that. It is wise to control the tongue.

t8 Yes you have and here was his response!

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2007,13:01)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 13 2007,23:26) Q2) Can you find another verse from the NT where the Greek word “theos” denotes an attenuated form divinity? The closest I can come to that is when Jesus said “Ye are gods”. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' He was supposedly quoting Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' Notice the reference in Psalms that says: “you are all sons of the Most High”. The word “theos” or “elohim” were used in reference to being sons and to confirm this, look at what Christ says when the Jews accused him of blasphemy for making himself out to be God. John 10:33-36 33″We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy- because I said, 'I am God's Son'? In other words 'theos' and 'elohim' is also applied to sons and the son of God and we know that we can partake of divine nature and so if we can, then how much more the son of God? Angels are also called sons and they to are called 'elohim'. Jesus wasn't saying he was God as Trinitarians think and what the Jews thought, rather he was saying all along that he is the son of God. So is it possible that the same error made by the Jews is being made by you? Angels too are called sons and look at the following scripture: Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)! Now let's look at this same question but using a different identity/nature. Q2) Can you find another verse from the NT where the Greek word “devil” denotes a diabolical nature? John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Jesus wasn't saying that Judas was the Devil himself and he wasn't saying that he was a demon either. Rather he was saying that he had the characteristics of the Devil or a devil. Probably characteristics like lies and murder. It is not unusual for words like God, Devil, Angel, to be used to describe nature. In English today, we often say things like “you are an angel” do give a description of one's character, and it is understood that you are not saying that such a person is an actual angel. Likewise people say “Speaking of the devil” when referring to a person. Both elohim and theos can be used in a qualitative sense. So if Logos is theos, then it can be interpreted in a qualitative way. Of course I remain open and teachable toward other options. But Logos (Christ) is God (YHWH), I cannot agree with and it not only contradicts the Book of John, but also John 1:1 itself, for it says that the Logos was with the God.

John 10:34/Psa 82:6 was the best you could come up with?? The “gods” in this psalm are in fact “wicked” Israelite judges who “judge unjustly”, “show partiality to the wicked”, “walk about in darkness” and will “die like men and fall like any one of the princes”….T8, they are men, who are called “gods” by YHWH in irony. Do you honestly think the Psalmist is describing a partially divine being? This is the kind of confusion henotheists are driven to in order to defend their faulty position.

[Proclaimer]

Well then, CultB should be complaining that I am slow to reply, not that I do not reply. Even if I am slow to reply, it doesn't mean that is a bad thing. God maybe slow to fulfill promises, but he is not slack, is he?

Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

You seem to ignore the part about sons. Look again. Am I to ignore the second part of the sentence because the judges were wicked? And if you look at Jesus reply he also says that they accuse him of blasphemy because he says that he is God's son. He didn't say God (himself) as you and the accusing Jews did.

John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

See that is the ironic part. You are like the Jews that are mentioned in the above scripture. Theos is used in reference to sons, whether you like it or not. The Old Testament says so and Jesus confirmed it by saying “you are gods” and then saying that he was the son of God and therefore the blasphemy charge was misdirected.

So you should listen to Jesus once in a while.

Anyway I have mentioned this before to you guys, but I will post it again in the John 1:1 debate, so you can reply there.

[kejonn]

I'm curious if a Trinitarian can answer why Yahshua might have used the Psalm passage when speaking of himself. Why would he choose to quote this passage if he was not comparing himself to them? I've yet to see a Trinitarian address this.

Jhn 10:33   The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”  
Jhn 10:34   Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?  
Jhn 10:35   “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),  
Jhn 10:36   do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?  

This is just so plain and simple. Yahshua tells them that the ones who brought the “logos” of God to the people where called gods, so why should they want to kill him if he too brought God's “logos” to the people and called himself the Son of God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Isa 1:18 explained it very well in the following post.

Quote.

Here is John 10:34 in context:

JOHN 10
30” I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.  32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?

Here is a brief summary:
v30 Jesus makes a statement implying unity with the heavenly Father.
v31 The Jews picked up stones to kill him.
v32 Jesus questions the Jews for the grounds on which He is being stoned.
V33 The Jews explain that they are about to stone him for BLASPHEMY (a stonable offense in first century Judea).
V34-36 Jesus reasons with the Jews with scripture pointing out to them that in their scriptures men are in fact called “gods” (Elohim). Thus their charges are rendered groundless on this technicality. They cannot legally stone him for inferring he is something synonymous with what scripture ascribes to men.

Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6-7. Here it is in context:

PSALM 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers [elohim]. 2How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. 3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. 4Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, “You are gods [Elohim], and all of you are sons of the Most High. 7″Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes.” 8Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who possesses all the nations.

The rulers (Elohim) in v1 are the “wicked” described in vs 2-4 and the “gods” in v6. These are MEN, Israelite magistrates. These judges had abused the authority God had given them (Dan 4:25, 30, 34-37, 5:18-22, Rom 13:1-4), and as a result of this YHWH declared “….you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes”. Why are they called “sons of the Most High?, it's quite apparenet that it's not due to any inherent divinity they might have….the context makes that clear…. it’s likely a form of Hebraic irony/sarcasm. They are men t8….do you understand this? Jesus' was not teaching that men are divine in John 10:34, it was that in scripture the word 'elohim' is occasionally applied to men (although never to imply deity), and the pharisees accusations against Him were effectively groundless, He could not be legally stoned. Think about it this way, if John 10:34 teaches that men are divine (including those deemed “wicked judges” who will “die like men and fall like any one of the princes”), in the same sense that Jesus is divine, then we have a VERY watered down divinity in Jesus don’t we! In fact the word itself loses all significance.

End Quote.

Not to mention Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures very well which says very plainly there is no god but One, all others so called gods are not gods at all.

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Exod 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

What is called gods, men, angels or kings, are not gods at all. They were made gods by men.

This is a desperate attempt to diminish the Deity of Christ when the word “Theos' can only be found ascribed in a true or positive sense to the Father and Yeshua. No Apostle or disciple of Christ calls anyone but the Father and Yeshua “Theos”.

Jesus didnt say “You are Gods”, he quoted the Psalmist, rebuking them for accusing him of blasphemy.

Jesus does not agree with satan that there are other gods.

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[kejonn]

Hey WJ,

I do not believe “you are gods” in these verses have anything to do with the ability of men to be divine. But your description above does not address the fact that Yahshua chose to quote the passage from Psalm when the Jews were accusing of Yahshua of making himself out to be God. How did he respond? By saying that men in the past were called gods when they brought the word of God to the people. And what was Yahshua doing? Bringing the “logos” of God to people. Same as them. So he was comparing himself to prior men of God. Yes, he was comparing himself to men, therefore saying he was NOT God, but rather a man who was representing his Father. That is why this passage is important.

[Worshipping Jesus]

I dont think Yeshua was comparing himself to wicked evil judges!

The truth is he was rebuking them for saying he was blaspheming because he claimed to be “One with God”, “The Son of God” which to them he knew full well meant he was claiming to be God.

Yeshua knew their thoughts when he said “I and my Father are one”.

In the context of the chapter he had already claimed to be the “Good Shephard”, which to them was a title for YHWH. Ps 23

Not only that he said…

Jn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Shall give Eternal life. Yeshuas hands, the Fathers hands, One with the Father (God).

These are hardly the claims of one who is comparing himself to be like wicked men or men.

No wonder they took up stones to kill him.

To them for one to say he was one with God and the Son of God was a claim to deity.

Yeshua knew this but never said I am not God!

Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John the writer in verse 18 was commentating on the incident and telling us that to call God his Father was making himself equal to God.

John is not implying that they misunderstood Jesus claim.

For it is also John that penned Jn 1:1 and John 20:28!

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 01 2007,11:35)

I dont think Yeshua was comparing himself to wicked evil judges!

He did not mention their wickedness but he did make a point of mentioning that they brought the word of God to people.

Quote

The truth is he was rebuking them for saying he was blaspheming because he claimed to be “One with God”, “The Son of God” which to them he knew full well meant he was claiming to be God.

If that had been the case, why even bring up the Psalms reference? Why did he not just rebuke them without this. There was a purpose in quoting “you are gods”, else he never would have mentioned it. You have not addressed why he brought this up here.

Quote

Yeshua knew their thoughts when he said “I and my Father are one”. In the context of the chapter he had already claimed to be the “Good Shephard”, which to them was a title for YHWH. Ps 23

I see no mention that the Jews were upset at this. They said he had a demon for several of the things he said, but they did not specifically mention the “good shepherd” reference.

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Not only that he said… Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Shall give Eternal life. Yeshuas hands, the Fathers hands, One with the Father (God).

So either you are saying that Yahshua is the Father by stringing this together or you miss the fact that people were given to Yashua by the Father. If the Son is God, why would he need the Father to give him these people? Wouldn't they already be his as God? But they were given to him (verse 29).

Now, the big issue with taking verse 30 as an indication of a triune God is that you are missing the 3rd person. All you have is bi-unity at this point.

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These are hardly the claims of one who is comparing himself to be like wicked men or men. No wonder they took up stones to kill him.

But you have not answered why he brought the reference up. The belief in trinity has to overlook that this was even mentioned.

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To them for one to say he was one with God and the Son of God was a claim to deity. Yeshua knew this but never said I am not God!

And yet he DID bring up the OT quote “you are gods” to answer them. Why not just be “truthful” if he is God?

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Jn 5: 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Are we not also to be children of God? So by your logic, the Jews would stone us as well, and they often did kill Christians. So what makes Stephen any different than Yahshua? He was stoned. You miss the point of v18 here: it was their opinion that he was claiming equality with God. And you agree with them .

That may very well be the reason many did not believe he was the Messiah, and why many Jews today still do not believe. Scripture never says that the Messiah was to be a god-man. By believing he is God, you disqualify what scripture says the Messiah is to be: a man. The OT does not say he is God.

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John the writer in verse 18 was commentating on the incident and telling us that to call God his Father was making himself equal to God.

See above. No, it does not — he was saying that they were wanting to kill him because that is what they believed.

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John is not implying that they misunderstood Jesus claim. For it is also John that penned Jn 1:1 and John 20:28!

Yes, the writer of GoJ wrote both verses. But did Yahshua ever say these things? And was 20:28 not just a record of what a doubting disciple said? Is John 1:1 definitively Yahshua? Whenever we see “word of the LORD” in the OT, are we to picture Yahshua? That can be the only logical conclusion for claiming that Yahshua is “logos'.

[Cult Buster]

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TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.  

[Proclaimer]

A good and thoughtful post from Kejonn followed by a robotic, unthinking and repetitive post from CultB.

[Mr. Steve]

The issue of the Godhead continues. In Mark 12:28-32, a scribe came to Jesus and asked which is the first commandment of all. Christ responded, “Hear, oh Israel, the Lord our God is “one” Lord…” The scribe answered, “Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God and there is none other than he” When Christ spoke of God he did not include himself. Christ made no indication that he was part of the Godhead. All references to Christ in scripture is that he is the Son of God with very little variation. John said three times in John chapter 1, that he is preferred before me because he was before me, thereby indicating the pre-existence of Christ as the Son of God. John did not say the Word was preferred before him, but “he” is preferred because “he” was before me. This establishes Christ's pre-existence. The title Son of God denotes that he was begotten by God. Any doctrine that holds that Christ was God contradicts what Christ taught and what all the on point scriptures identify Christ as being – the Son of God. Furthermore, to hold that Christ is God in a denial that he is the Son of God, which is a requisite belief for eternal life. Hence, any doctrine that does not hold that Christ was at some point in time begotten by God is anti-christ since it denies that Christ is the Son of God.

Take Care

Steven

[Author]

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