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Hi Mr s,
I agree.
Christ was not the God Who was IN HIM any more than we are the God at work IN US.
Phil 2
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”Nick;
It is true that Christ did not manifest the glory until after his baptism. With respect to trinitarians, don't they believe that Christ was the eternal Son of God? I'll check that out.
Take care,
Steven
Quote (kejonn @ July 30 2007,20:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,01:50) kejonn You say…
Quote
This is another instance wherre you base your theology on shaky ground. Translate it as “by” and you can support the Trinity, translate it as “through” and it cannot. Weak.I disagree!
Party #1 says I am gonna build a house.
Party #1 has party #2 (a contractor) build the house.
Party #1 built the house “through” party #2.
Did party #2 build the house?
The house was made “By” party #2.
Did not God create all things “By” and “Through” and “For” himself?
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
When I look at that verse, I cannot distinguish what Hebrew words were used for “by myself”. At least blueletterbible.com gives me no clue, nor does htmlbible.com. Any Hebrew scholars on here? Do you have access to an explanation of why “by myself” was used according to the original Hebrew? I think the key to understanding this verse definitively lies there.Also, we do not truly know what form the Word was before it became Yeshua. If YHWH says He created the world “by myself”, how does this disclude the Word if the Word was just an extension of YHWH's power and not a separate entity until Yeshua's earthly birth? We don't have enough OT reference or even NT reference to tells us just how the Word was involved in creation.
Quote Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Is 45:18 is basically a repeat of Dt 6:4. John 1:3 does not say that there was only one involved in the creation, but does say that the Word was. “Then God said”…(Gen 1)Quote Romans 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
This whole chapter is dedicated to God. No mention of Yeshua.Quote Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Some would say that this chapter points towards the “new creation” and that all of the NT refers to the new covenant and new creation. The clue in this chapter comes in
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.Here it is obvious that “He is the beginning” in the context of the whole verse refers to the new creation. After all, what does “firstborn of all creation” mean in 1:15? Again, it could mean that he was the firstborn of the new creation but I don't think so. In any case, it does mean that Yeshua did come from God and verse 1:15 almost implies that Yeshua was created. But “firstborn” somewhat eliminated that.
However, I do not agree with the assessment that Col 1:16 refers to the new creation.
In any case, Col 1:16 does not prevent Yeshua from doing this as the Word.
Quote YHWH “Alone” created the heavens and the earth.
Again, we need to establish by the translators used “by Himself” or “all alone” in Is 44:24 first.Quote Now we just have to know who YHWH is. John and Paul and the Hebrew writers tells us…
“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” Jn 1:10.
Hey, that was only John
. In any case, again, as the Word, this verse fits. These verses are about the Word.Curious here. If we look back at Genesis chapter 1 and say “Us” means the Trinity, why do so many other verses use the singular pronoun when speaking of YHWH in the OT? Why would God, consisting of 3 “persons” use a singular pronoun when speaking of Himself? I can see why He would if one applies a unitarian or even modalist viewpoint, but not Trinitarian. Which “person” is speaking? Or are all speaking in unison? Would the voices then not be a chorus?
kejonn“Alone”, “By Myself”, “None Other”, “None like Me”, “None beside me”
Means…
“Alone”, “By Myself”, “None Other”, “None like Me”, “None beside me”!
If you can live with…
Quote Again, we need to establish by the translators used “by Himself” or “all alone” in Is 44:24 first. What more can I say.
Hi W,
You could say of Christ that he is the Son of the living God
and clear up the haze you have created in the minds of many of God's children..Nick;
With respect to the trinity, the few sites I've checked out all state that the trinity includes the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally co-existence and equal in all respects. They use such language that Christ did not teach to explain the doctrine like degree, form, and power, but from what I read the three are believed to be eternally equal.
Steven
Dear WJ;
Do you believe that Christ is the eternal Son of God, or that he was part of God only before coming to earth? In other words, did he exist before he was begotten in the flesh?
Steven
Hi MrS,
Yes the monogenes Son was begotten in the beginning and came from heaven. He is not a part of God but the Son of God. He is the one who descended and ascended. Humble and obedient he served God as a vessel and a servant unto death that we might live.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,16:17) Quote (kejonn @ July 30 2007,20:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,01:50) kejonn You say…
Quote
This is another instance wherre you base your theology on shaky ground. Translate it as “by” and you can support the Trinity, translate it as “through” and it cannot. Weak.I disagree!
Party #1 says I am gonna build a house.
Party #1 has party #2 (a contractor) build the house.
Party #1 built the house “through” party #2.
Did party #2 build the house?
The house was made “By” party #2.
Did not God create all things “By” and “Through” and “For” himself?
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
When I look at that verse, I cannot distinguish what Hebrew words were used for “by myself”. At least blueletterbible.com gives me no clue, nor does htmlbible.com. Any Hebrew scholars on here? Do you have access to an explanation of why “by myself” was used according to the original Hebrew? I think the key to understanding this verse definitively lies there.Also, we do not truly know what form the Word was before it became Yeshua. If YHWH says He created the world “by myself”, how does this disclude the Word if the Word was just an extension of YHWH's power and not a separate entity until Yeshua's earthly birth? We don't have enough OT reference or even NT reference to tells us just how the Word was involved in creation.
Quote Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Is 45:18 is basically a repeat of Dt 6:4. John 1:3 does not say that there was only one involved in the creation, but does say that the Word was. “Then God said”…(Gen 1)Quote Romans 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
This whole chapter is dedicated to God. No mention of Yeshua.Quote Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Some would say that this chapter points towards the “new creation” and that all of the NT refers to the new covenant and new creation. The clue in this chapter comes in
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.Here it is obvious that “He is the beginning” in the context of the whole verse refers to the new creation. After all, what does “firstborn of all creation” mean in 1:15? Again, it could mean that he was the firstborn of the new creation but I don't think so. In any case, it does mean that Yeshua did come from God and verse 1:15 almost implies that Yeshua was created. But “firstborn” somewhat eliminated that.
However, I do not agree with the assessment that Col 1:16 refers to the new creation.
In any case, Col 1:16 does not prevent Yeshua from doing this as the Word.
Quote YHWH “Alone” created the heavens and the earth.
Again, we need to establish by the translators used “by Himself” or “all alone” in Is 44:24 first.Quote Now we just have to know who YHWH is. John and Paul and the Hebrew writers tells us…
“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” Jn 1:10.
Hey, that was only John. In any case, again, as the Word, this verse fits. These verses are about the Word.Curious here. If we look back at Genesis chapter 1 and say “Us” means the Trinity, why do so many other verses use the singular pronoun when speaking of YHWH in the OT? Why would God, consisting of 3 “persons” use a singular pronoun when speaking of Himself? I can see why He would if one applies a unitarian or even modalist viewpoint, but not Trinitarian. Which “person” is speaking? Or are all speaking in unison? Would the voices then not be a chorus?
kejonn“Alone”, “By Myself”, “None Other”, “None like Me”, “None beside me”
Means…
“Alone”, “By Myself”, “None Other”, “None like Me”, “None beside me”!
If you can live with…
Quote Again, we need to establish by the translators used “by Himself” or “all alone” in Is 44:24 first. What more can I say.
WJ,I think Irenaeus summed it up nicely (from Against Heresies: Book II, Chapter XXX.—Absurdity of their styling themselves spiritual, while the Demiurge is declared to be animal.)
But there is one only God, the Creator—He who is above every Principality, and Power, and Dominion, and Virtue: He is Father, He is God, He the Founder, He the Maker, He the Creator, who made those things by Himself, th
at is, through His Word and His Wisdom— heaven and earth, and the seas, and all things that are in them: He is just; He is good; He it is who formed man, who planted paradise, who made the world, who gave rise to the flood, who saved Noah; He is the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of the living: He it is whom the law proclaims, whom the prophets preach, whom Christ reveals, whom the apostles make known to us, and in whom the Church believes.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2007,08:39) Hi Mr S,
FOR DOCTRINAL PURPOSES little is more important than the fact that Christ is the Son of God. Trinitarians say he was never a real Son but a part of God just CALLED the Son of God. The Word was with God in the beginning. He came in the name of the Father, was filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan and thence only revealed the full nature and powers of God at work in his vessel.
Reading your post Nick reminded me of the following:Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D)
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).I know this isn't scripture, but the Trinity Doctrine does make the son of God, that, but only in appearance because it says that he is God overall and therefore not a real son which means that he is a son in appearance only.
In other words the Trinity doctrine says the (over all) God became a son, but in appearance because he is the God that he is the son of. God appeared as the son.
T8;
Isn't that the Oneness teaching. The trinitarians believe that Christ was the Son of God before coming to earth. What is most distinctive about the trinitarians isn't the pre-existence of Christ but the eternal equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The scriptures clearly present an order of authority within the Godhead, particularly, between the Father and the Son.
Quote (t8 @ July 31 2007,21:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2007,08:39) Hi Mr S,
FOR DOCTRINAL PURPOSES little is more important than the fact that Christ is the Son of God. Trinitarians say he was never a real Son but a part of God just CALLED the Son of God. The Word was with God in the beginning. He came in the name of the Father, was filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan and thence only revealed the full nature and powers of God at work in his vessel.
Reading your post Nick reminded me of the following:Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D)
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).I know this isn't scripture, but the Trinity Doctrine does make the son of God, that, but only in appearance because it says that he is God overall and therefore not a real son which means that he is a son in appearance only.
In other words the Trinity doctrine says the (over all) God became a son, but in appearance because he is the God that he is the son of. God appeared as the son.
t8
Who are you speaking to? A modalist?
I see you are still using the spurious quote of Ignatius.
Notice it says “others that He is not the Son the Creator,”.
The scriptures say “God alone” By himself” created the heavens!
Who is the ministers of satan? Those that deny that Jesus is the creator of all things.
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,05:44) T8; Isn't that the Oneness teaching. The trinitarians believe that Christ was the Son of God before coming to earth. What is most distinctive about the trinitarians isn't the pre-existence of Christ but the eternal equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The scriptures clearly present an order of authority within the Godhead, particularly, between the Father and the Son.
steveYou are correct. But t8 chooses to be disingenuos to the Trinitarians because they are here exposing his false doctrine.
I pray that God will break through to his pridefull heart and that he will once again confess Jesus as his Lord and God!
Where does T8 say that Jesus is not Lord? I believe what T8 is saying is that Christ is not the Father. Just to say that Jesus is God is ambiguous because it is subject to more than one interpretation. Paul said Jesus was made Lord of heaven and earth to the glory of God the Father. So here we are again. Jesus cannot be both the Father and the Son. He said his Father was in heaven at least 20 times in the book of Matthew alone. Who made Christ Lord? Did he make himself Lord? Jesus said it was the Father that sent him and that he could do nothing of himself. Hebrews says he exalted not himself to be “made” our high priest but he that said to him, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” For some reason trinitarians do not like these scriptures that fill the pages of the new testament. Who filled Christ with the fulness of the Godhead bodily? John the Baptist said it was God that gave not the spirit by measure unto him. The God that John refers to can only be the Father. Otherwise, John the Baptist and Jesus misrepresented the truth if you believe that Christ was always filled with the fulness of God. The entire new testament would be written differently. The truth is so plain a child could understand it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,14:58) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,05:44) T8; Isn't that the Oneness teaching. The trinitarians believe that Christ was the Son of God before coming to earth. What is most distinctive about the trinitarians isn't the pre-existence of Christ but the eternal equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The scriptures clearly present an order of authority within the Godhead, particularly, between the Father and the Son.
steveYou are correct. But t8 chooses to be disingenuos to the Trinitarians because they are here exposing his false doctrine.
I pray that God will break through to his pridefull heart and that he will once again confess Jesus as his Lord and God!
Yes, and no. Some believe the Trinity to be false too, so accusations are futile. But I will say that WJ is a strong Trinitarian and has not shown any instances of modalistic thinking that I am aware of!The only thing I would say though is that many of us do not call Yeshua our Lord and God because Yeshua never said for us to. Christians are to be Christlike, not followers of Paul, Thomas, Peter, John, etc. So since Yeshua never claimed to be God, and said to pray to the Father and that the Father is his God, we follow his example. He is the Great Teacher after all.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,05:44) T8; Isn't that the Oneness teaching. The trinitarians believe that Christ was the Son of God before coming to earth. What is most distinctive about the trinitarians isn't the pre-existence of Christ but the eternal equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The scriptures clearly present an order of authority within the Godhead, particularly, between the Father and the Son.
Hi Steve.Oneness says that God is one person who appears in 3 modes.
Like water can be ice, liquid, gas.Trinitarians believe in 3 persons united as one substance. The substance itself is called the one God. That is why they don't refer to God as 'them' because God is the substance to them.
So one of the persons in the God substance is the son of the Father. That means that the so-called 'God the son' is still God and therefore he is the son of himself because remember they say he is God. In other words not a real son in that sons come from a parent i.e., the Father, but a son in appearance because he is really God and existed equally with the Father forever.
So he is God and the son of God. That is what they teach. But scripture says that Jesus is the son of God and that his Father is the one true God.
In other words you can't be the son of yourself in ordinary terms and scripture certainly doesn't teach this clearly or even as a mystery.
In the same sense that God is a Father. In other words, God became a Father when he begat a son.
Previous to being a man, he was the Word that was with God.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 02 2007,01:50) In the same sense that God is a Father. In other words, God became a Father when he begat a son. Previous to being a man, he was the Word that was with God.
Excuse me Mr t8. Didn't you just leave out some of the scripture?Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God. and the Word was God.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
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