Trinity &#8211; t8&#039;s proof text #3

Participant

Remove not the old landmark; enter not into the fields of the fatherless, that have no root within them,

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou did not bearest the root, but the root thee.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (with the fathers promise and Instructions)
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (Neither Father nor offspring to inhertance)
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers(generation) to the (generation of the) children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The forgotten father? all Have gone diret to the father God, forsaken inportance of the root of the father David.

The old Land Mark; forsaken
Psa 109:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. For my love they are my adversaries: but I [give myself unto] prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; [and] let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek [their bread] also out of their desolate places. Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; [and] in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Let it be unto him as the garment [which] covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually. [Let] this [be] the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy [is] good, deliver thou me. For I [am] poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.
I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.
My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
I became also a reproach unto them: [when] they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:
That they may know that this [is] thy hand; [that] thou, LORD, hast done it.
Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.
Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save [him] from those that condemn his soul.

July 24, 2007 at 8:16 am#61354

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,19:49)

Yes. Both of these statements are scriptural.

1. No one has seen the Father of Yeshua.
2. YHWH has been seen by men.

How you reconcile them is up to you.

Hi Is 1.18,

I do not think we should begin with science but with faith.
So no one has seen the invisible God.
Makes sense to me.

Men have seen all sorts of manifestations with their pathetic human eyes
but God is beyond the vision of men.

July 24, 2007 at 8:22 am#61355

Participant

Quote (charity @ July 24 2007,17:36)

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,(David) which made a marriage for his son,(Jesus)
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. HIS SEED shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown [by casting it] to the ground.

Hi Charity,
Is David the king in the kingdom of heaven?
Mt22
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

David has no authority in heaven but only on earth.
He is not our God and does not rule over Christ.
He has no servants to send now to men.

The wedding feast is that of the LAMB

July 24, 2007 at 9:06 am#61361

Participant

God of the whole earth shall he “be called”.thy redeemer the holy one of Israel, the first begotten,Having been of need of being reedemned himself first by the Highest sent into the world to get that which was lost.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Jesus is Made of the seed of David, preformed by Gods promise

Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
All these people new was that David shall rise again in the latter day, decleared their King, by the resurrection of the dead, I guess if they New his new Name, as the Baby King was Jesus, then it would say look for Jesus

And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD
Guess God had to rebuke the creation before the the foundations were even discovered, and elect one out of the tribe of Juda to redeemn some saints to by sure mercy of David, the soul shall live, A new body has thou prepared, to do thy work of Lord.
2Sa 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.
2Sa 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
2Sa 22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.
2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
2Sa 22:12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, [and] thick clouds of the skies.
2Sa 22:13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.
2Sa 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.
2Sa 22:15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.
2Sa 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
2Sa 22:17 He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;

July 24, 2007 at 9:15 am#61365

Participant

Hi charity,
Men shall not be our god.
David is of the root of Christ.

July 24, 2007 at 9:32 am#61372

Participant

Nick

Any way The Son isn't the King yet in this parable, but is to inherit the throne being the Son, And the current King will throw the incorrectly dressed out, of whom I think we should fear the althority of this certain King?
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

July 24, 2007 at 9:36 am#61374

Participant

Hi charity,
God is King in the kingdom of heaven.
David will kneel before Christ, his appointed king.
All must be clothed in Christ through baptism.[Gal3]

July 24, 2007 at 11:32 am#61404

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,02:38)

Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,23:41)

Yes, and you just showed more evidence that YHWH sent His Word to speak through angels. God can use anything to speak to His people, even donkeys! But the fact of the matter is, no one has seen the invisible God, the spirit form of God, God in all of His glory. He always has to assume another form or speak through another being via His Holy Spirit because mortals cannot see Him as He truly is.

Exd 33:18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
Exd 33:19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
Exd 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!“
Exd 33:21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
Exd 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
Exd 33:23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

Regardless of all this, as my post after the one responded to stated, I believe when it is said that no one has seen God, it is talking about what we see above in Exodus 33. So, in my opinion, the usage of the “No one has seen God at any time” to say Yeshua is not God is not a very strong defense. We cannot see Yeshua's spirit no more than we can see anyone's else's spirit, and God is Spirit. So this would not be a defense I would take.

JMHO.

Did not Moses see YHWH in the passage you quoted (Ex. 33:23)? Seems to me he did!

Not his face, which leads to the predicament of reconciling 33:11 with 33:20. How could YHWH talk face-to-face with Moses and not be able to see His face as YHWH stated in 33:20?

Perhaps 33:11 should not be taken literally as visual face-to-face of YHWH in His glory and Moses. If it can, then we have a contradiction within the same chapter and we might as well chunk our bibles in the trash.

Exd 33:9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses.
Exd 33:10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent.
Exd 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Hmmmm, seems Moses was talking to YHWH through the “pillar of cloud”. This reconciles 33:11 with 33:23 because Moses was obviously yearning to see YHWH as He truly was, not in some other form such as an angel or “pillar of cloud”.

Quote

Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

As God Almighty…..

Sure they actually saw Him?

Gen 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
Gen 17:2 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.”
Gen 17:3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,

Did it say that Abram actually saw God Almighty here? He fell on His face, which would go to the same concept of Ex 33:20 “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”.

As far as Isaac is concerned, I'm having difficulty finding where God ever even spoke with him, much less “appeared”. This leads to an examination of the wording of Ex 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

The only time I can find where Isaac was ever in the presence of YHWH was when the angel of YHWH spoke with Abraham during the Isaac sacrifice scene. So we know it was an angel there, not YHWH Himself. But the key to this verse lies in the last part in that YHWH was telling Moses that he was the first to know God Almighty as YHWH and not as God Almighty. This can be seen here

Gen 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. [covered above]
—————————————–
Gen 28:1 So Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and charged him, and said to him, “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan.
Gen 28:2 “Arise, go to Paddan-aram, to the house of Bethuel your mother's father; and from there take to yourself a wife from the daughters of Laban your mother's brother.
Gen 28:3 “May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, that you may become a company of peoples.
—————————————–
Gen 35:9 Then God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddan-aram, and He blessed him.
Gen 35:10 God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; You shall no longer be called Jacob, But Israel shall be your name.” Thus He called him Israel.
Gen 35:11 God also said to him, “I am God Almighty; Be fruitful and multiply; A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, And kings shall come forth from you.

Of course, it does not say how God appeared to Jacob but it must not have been in true form or again, we have a conflict with Exodus 33:20. Unless Jacob spoke to His backside….

Quote

Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “

We already saw the “pillar of cloud” immediately preceding YHWH's visit with Moses. This verse is saying that Moses actually experienced some manifestation of YHWH rather than receiving communication from YHWH in a vision. Else, Ex 33:20 can be thrown out…

Quote

Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and
they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”

Saw the God of Israel….
Beheld God….

Difficult to explain these away.

Exd 24:1 Then He said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel, and you shall worship at a distance.
So did they see God's face, in His glory? Does not say, but we still have to reconcile this with Ex 33:20. If you say they did see His face and not a manifestation of Himself, then you make God out to be a liar according to Ex 33:20.

So, how DO you slip around Ex 33:20?

July 24, 2007 at 11:42 am#61405

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,02:43)

You can't have read my opening post too thoroughly kejonn, in it I affirmed that the angel of the LORD is the LORD….

Why would the Bible not say YHWH Himself then? Why even say “angel of the LORD”? Your “proof” is lacking because you have to provide evidence that an angel is YHWH. Um…are you becoming a Jehovah's Witness?

Quote

There is no question at all that the angel of the LORD was YHWH, representatives Who are not YHWH can not rightly speak the way the “angel of the Lord” did. They unequivocally would not use first person, singular pronouns (myself, I) when making proclamations that only YHWH can rightly make and bring about. They simply do not have this right.

Scripture to back this assertion up is now needed. I've seen this from you before but all we have is your assertion and no scriptural evidence. An angel is not a mortal man but a supernatural creation of God. So please back this assertion up with scripture.

Thanks!

July 24, 2007 at 11:52 am#61406

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,19:49)

Yes. Both of these statements are scriptural.

1. No one has seen the Father of Yeshua.
2. YHWH has been seen by men.

How you reconcile them is up to you.

God isn't YHWH is the only logical way to reconcile this, if you hold to both statements. Problem is that it happens to be incorrect and a contradiction, so according to your understanding the bible contradicts.

John and Paul TEACH that NO man can see God and have never seen him. However, scripture is clear that we can see God's glory, we just can't see his form.

But I can see where you are coming from. You believe that Jesus is YHWH that much that you are willing to say that YHWH is a visible being (at times), even when you are faced with the complication of not going against John and Paul when they say that no man has ever seen God. But it is more likely that Christ was the messenger or an angel, but not God because God isn't a messenger. God is the supreme ruler and he delegates.

I believe John and I believe Paul. I also believe Paul when he says that there is one God the Father and God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Do you still oppose me for believing and teaching such things?

July 24, 2007 at 11:55 am#61408

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,02:49)

Yes. Both of these statements are scriptural.

1. No one has seen the Father of Yeshua.

1Jo 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

This verse says nothing about the Father. God with no qualifiers. How do you reconcile this with your statement?

Quote

2. YHWH has been seen by men.

How you reconcile them is up to you.

According to 1 John 4:12 we have a contradiction in scripture then. If you cannot accept that that God is spirit and God is invisible and that men can only see God in a manifestation, then you just have to live with the contradiction. I'm prepared to accept God at His word when the Bible says “No one has seen God at any time”. I cannot help that you struggle with it.

July 24, 2007 at 6:54 pm#61419

Participant

Seen…. the perception of sight
Seen …the accomplished eye witness
are we all co inheritors with Christ of the Invisible spirit of God; Seen by perception of Sight first,
for what is only a perception first, then may be a seen to accomplished, Manifested in the transformed Nature, which then becomes a visible seen of by others,As Christ in the flesh
that God has installed in the creatures, that the whole of the creation are waiting with expectations for the Sons of God to appear, with a view, then to be unrefused, that Kingdom should appear visiable on earth by their obedience.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

To perceive Good merchandise, first of how Christ inherited the invisible spirit of God
That we also maybe adapted to adoption wit, having seen before what was manifested to the eyes in the flesh, his life being the spirit of prophecy first, accomplished in its time

July 24, 2007 at 8:54 pm#61426

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“You can't have read my opening post too thoroughly kejonn, in it I affirmed that the angel of the LORD is the LORD….”

You state what scripture does not do? That would make you greater than scripture.

The implications are astounding too.

If the Lord God is an angel then we are greater than God as to us in Christ they are ministering spirits.[Heb 1.14]. Surely you would not suggest this. Angel, though greater than men[2Peter 2.11] are messengers and God never says He is a messenger for Himself.

Your God is far too small.

July 24, 2007 at 10:06 pm#61435

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28)

1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14”Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19”For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

T8 would argue that this is not YHWH in view here but a “representative of God”, but that is NOT what the text says. It reads : “The LORD appeared unto him”. There are no grammatical ambiguities here, the language is plain.

In the above text we have the following clearly recorded:

YHWH appeared to Abraham (v1)

YHWH ate with Abraham (v8)

YHWH spoke to Abraham (v13)

YHWH and Abraham negotiated over the Sodom’s fate (v26ff)

YHWH departed from Abraham’s presence (v33)

What’s striking about this narrative is that the person designated YHWH, frequently employed first person singular pronoun “I” when speaking. He also implicitly claimed for Himself sovereign rights that are exclusive to YHWH. For instance, in verse 19 the personage identified in the text as YHWH declared that He has chosen Abraham to be the conduit for Israel’s blessings. Can a non-divine delegate rightly state this? The answer is no. Furthermore, in verse 26 this person negotiated with Abraham over the Sodom’s fate and YHWH conceded that He would spare the whole place on account of 50 righteous men? Does a non-divine appointee of YHWH have the mandate to make a decision on the annihilation of an entire city? Again, it's no. A non-divine messenger would not speak this way at all. He would say something akin to “If the LORD finds in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then He will spare all the place for their sakes”. No messenger can rightly speak as this One spoke, unless it was YHWH that was speaking. What we see in Genesis 18 is multiple instances where Abraham’s visitor speaks as YHWH, not for YHWH. And that’s a key distinction to highlight. So, not only is the visitor explicitly called YHWH in the passage, he is also ascribed the authority/prerogatives that exclusively belong to YHWH. The details in this chapter overwhelmingly affirm that YHWH visited Abraham by the oaks of Mamre.

Despite the overt clarity of the text though, t8 would say it’s impossible for YHWH to do the things ascribed to Him in Genesis 18, to this I’ll counter with the rhetorical question YHWH posed to Abraham in the very same chapter I quoted:

“Is anything too difficult for the LORD?”

YHWH can take the form of a man and enter our time-space continuum. It’s not “too difficult” for YHWH to do anything that does not compromise His Holy nature, and we should not unduly seek to place limitations on the Almighty God that scripture does not place. The personage that visited Abraham really was YHWH, not a minion sent on YHWH’s behalf. But how do we know this for certain? YHWH tells us so in Exodus 6:3.

2. Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty[/b], but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

YHWH appeared to Abraham as God Almighty (el shadday). It cannot be said more plainly, YHWH “appeared” to Abraham not in the form of a non-divine messenger but as YHWH, God Almighty. Should we believe the statement YHWH has made here? I think we should take YHWH at His word.

YHWH also interacted with Moses, speaking to Him “face to face”:

3. Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”

Is it possible to speak with someone “face to face” and not see them? YHWH reiterates this in Numbers 12:6-8, using even more descriptive language:

4. Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “

Here Moses is NOT spoken to in a dream or vision like some of the other prophets but rather “mouth to mouth”, YHWH goes on to say that He allows Moses to behold (look intently at) the form of the LORD. Again, it could not be more plainly stated that Moses saw YHWH.

Moreover, on at least one occasion YHWH was seen by a multitude of people:

5. Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”

Again we have very clear and precise language being used. No one could honestly mistake the meanings of these two phrases:

“they saw the God of Israel”
“they beheld God”

So has YHWH been seen? Evidently so! It’s difficult to discount even one of the above passages, let alone all five of them, and what I annotated is by no means the sum total of passages in the Bible that show YHWH has been seen by men. It’s just a selection of some of them.

So where does this place t8, and his assertion that the Father has not been seen? In a tight spot, as I would see it. He is faced with a glaring contradiction for which he has offered no tenable explanation.

There is no question that YHWH has been seen….

1s 1:18

Quote

Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses an
d said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

As God Almighty…..

Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”

Face to face….

Mouth to mouth…
Behold the form…

Saw the God of Israel….
Beheld God….

Difficult to explain these away.

Well presented Bro. Isaiah. They cannot explain away these Bible verses but they still try, because they are under the strong delusion mention in 2 Thessalonians. The problem is that they do not love the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

July 24, 2007 at 10:13 pm#61437

Participant

Hi CB,
Not many here acknowledge you as a brother because you teach of three gods.
You should submit to the one true God, the Father of Jesus.
Why oppose Him Who holds your life in His hands?

July 25, 2007 at 1:10 pm#61485

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,17:13)

Hi CB,
Not many here acknowledge you as a brother because you teach of three gods.
You should submit to the one true God, the Father of Jesus.
Why oppose Him Who holds your life in His hands?

Nick,

While CB and I look at things differently — he being a modalist and me not believing in the Trinity or modalism — us not referring to him as brother means little. I'm certain there are others in his own home circle who do. I'm sure he has the same feelings about us :;): .

July 27, 2007 at 10:43 pm#61857

Mr. Steve

Participant

Hello everyone;

I've been very busy this week and haven't had time to post, but I would like your feedback on some thoughts I've I had this week.

It’s interesting to note the phrase “In the beginning…” I’ve come to realize a very important precept in the phrase. The phrase “in the beginning” is used in Genesis, The Gospel of John, and the Epistle of First John. The phrase implies an origin, or the origin of a certain thing, generally a truth about a very important issue required for our understanding. It is, in essence, the factual information upon which God intends us to establish our doctrine. When God says in the beginning, He's saying this is the truth marker, no doctrine shall go beyond this boundary. Virtually all the requisite truth necessary for our understanding that God intended for us originates in the beginning and goes forward to our present time in the New Testament. We can only speculate on truth before the beginning. Consequently, whatever God said was the truth in the beginning was the truth God intended for us to know to establish our doctrine. Therefore, since Christ was in the beginning with the Father (and even before) and he created the world under the authority of the Father (Hebrews 1: 2 …by whom he made the worlds.), it is sound doctrine to declare Christ is the eternal Son of God. In another place, the Lord hath sworn and will not repent, “thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” Paul said that includes a priest-hood without beginning of days or end of life. It is expressly eternal. He is not the Father, but he is the Son forever in deity according to the facts that we have been given to us in scripture.

However, this does not mean that Christ is equal with the Father as the masses have swallowed hook, line, and sinker. In Matthew 4 we see some very insightful truths regarding Christ relationship to his Father that knock out the trinity notion of eternal equality within the Godhead. The devil offered Christ the kingdoms of the world in exchange for his worship. Christ response was thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only. That's right, Christ worships the Father as his Lord and God. He lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of “God”. Moreover, Christ said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. In this one chapter Christ makes it clear he lives by God, he worships God, and he will not tempt God.

There is a definite order within the Godhead. However, since there is no time in scripture when Christ did not exist with the Father, not as an angel, but as creator with the Father, it is sound doctrine to declare that Christ is eternal. There is simply to place within the scriptural telescope where Christ did not exist with the Father. Therefore, I declare unto you that Christ is the eternal Son of God, yet subject to the Father in deity.

Take care,

Mr. Steve

July 27, 2007 at 11:37 pm#61863