Trinity &#8211; t8&#039;s proof text #3

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,18:18)

kejonn. Why did they fall backwards at the words I AM?

John 18:5-6 “They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, I am. And Judas also, the one who betrayed Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”

Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own? The divine name of “I AM”. And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus?

Look again! It's in your face!

Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”

What did Jesus say to them that forced them backward onto the ground. He used the divine name I AM in reference to Himself.

He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.

Then as these words were uttered by Jesus, the vile mob staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. Their wicked hearts filled with terror. They could not for a moment stand upon their feet in the presence of Jesus' Divine Glory, and they fell powerless to the ground.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus said.

John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

I told you why but your eyes seem to glaze over when you read them. I don't need to repeat them because you are blind to the obviosu and only form theology by soundbites. Context is everything in the Bible and you have yet to show that you understand context.

Besides, if they fell back because they TRULY thought Yeshua was God, I would then think they would run away. Would YOU try to capture God Almighty? They seemed to recover from their “fear of the Almighty God” in a hurry.

July 22, 2007 at 11:50 pm#61159

Cult Buster

Participant

kejonn. I think that your eyes may be glazed over.
Why did they fall backwards? Can't you just answer the question!

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,18:18)

kejonn. Why did they fall backwards at the words I AM?

Look again! It's in your face!

Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”

What did Jesus say to them that forced them backward onto the ground. He used the divine name I AM in reference to Himself.

He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus said.

John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

July 23, 2007 at 12:31 am#61176

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,11:50)

kejonn. I think that your eyes may be glazed over.
Why did they fall backwards? Can't you just answer the question!

Because he was/is Jesus Christ.

Is that not enough?

Is the son of God not enough, even though men worshipped angels when they saw them.

July 23, 2007 at 3:22 am#61225

Participant

CB,

I answered the question. The miracle worker of the last three years was being taken into custody. They were scared of a man with so much power. Like I said, show me anywhere in the Bible where men tried to capture God Almighty. These men did it if he is who you say he is. After their initial fear, they made a quick recovery. Would you lose fear in the face of he Almighty God?

July 23, 2007 at 7:53 am#61249

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,07:27)

I read through several pages of this thread but do not have the time to read through all. I noted in the pages I read that no one tackled the Genesis 18 account of an appearance of YHWH. I wanted to take a short stab at this passage.

First off, I note that Is 1:18 only used bits and pieces of the passage and left out very important verses that bring things to light. I can't imagine why no one caught this but let's revisit the passage, or at least some verse that throw things in a new view.

Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

IS left out verse 2 in his original quotation and now everything has come to light. Is God a man?

Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

This already shows that the three men of Genesis 18:2 cannot be God in the flesh, but at least one is a vessel of God carrying his word. So again, Abraham was not seeing God but a vessel of God's word sent to Abraham.

Abraham was visited by the LORD.

Genesis 18:22
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

Would an agent for YHWH say this:

Genesis 18:18-19
“since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.”

It's not uncommon, Kejonn, for OT writers to ascribe the title “man” to beings that are clearly not real men. Look at the very next chapter in Genesis:

1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

cf.

12Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;

July 23, 2007 at 8:26 am#61250

Participant

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Do you know better than John?
What else are we to think from your interpretation?

Surely you must be confused about this.
You must see contradiction.

No man has seen God at any time says John. You say otherwise and then give us your interpretation of some Old Testament verses which is the same as saying John was wrong.

Tell me, shall I believe you over John?
If so, then why did you quote John 1:1 as a proof text if you don't believe John's statement above.

July 23, 2007 at 8:55 am#61252

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28)

From a trinitarian’s perspective, I see two possible scenarios that could account for the contravention between 1 John 4:12 and the passages I cited:

1. It’s true that the Father has never been seen but another, also named YHWH, has.
2.The word theos in 1 John 4:12 does not refer to the Father, but the triune God.

I think both are plausible, but on balance I would favour #1. This is because in consulting passages penned by John of the same basis theme (as 1 John 4:12) it’s explicit that “theos” does refer to the father. These three verses bear this out expressly:

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So on this point let me state that I concur with t8, no one has ever seen the Father, this appears to be the only logical conclusion to draw from John’s writings above. But it’s even more scripturally obvious that men have seen YHWH. Which begs the question – if not he Father, then Who was the person described as YHWH that has been seen? I surmise that the only reasonable candidate is the preincarnate Yeshua.

July 23, 2007 at 9:00 am#61253

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28)

1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14”Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19”For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

T8 would argue that this is not YHWH in view here but a “representative of God”, but that is NOT what the text says. It reads : “The LORD appeared unto him”. There are no grammatical ambiguities here, the language is plain.

In the above text we have the following clearly recorded:

YHWH appeared to Abraham (v1)

YHWH ate with Abraham (v8)

YHWH spoke to Abraham (v13)

YHWH and Abraham negotiated over the Sodom’s fate (v26ff)

YHWH departed from Abraham’s presence (v33)

What’s striking about this narrative is that the person designated YHWH, frequently employed first person singular pronoun “I” when speaking. He also implicitly claimed for Himself sovereign rights that are exclusive to YHWH. For instance, in verse 19 the personage identified in the text as YHWH declared that He has chosen Abraham to be the conduit for Israel’s blessings. Can a non-divine delegate rightly state this? The answer is no. Furthermore, in verse 26 this person negotiated with Abraham over the Sodom’s fate and YHWH conceded that He would spare the whole place on account of 50 righteous men? Does a non-divine appointee of YHWH have the mandate to make a decision on the annihilation of an entire city? Again, it's no. A non-divine messenger would not speak this way at all. He would say something akin to “If the LORD finds in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then He will spare all the place for their sakes”. No messenger can rightly speak as this One spoke, unless it was YHWH that was speaking. What we see in Genesis 18 is multiple instances where Abraham’s visitor speaks as YHWH, not for YHWH. And that’s a key distinction to highlight. So, not only is the visitor explicitly called YHWH in the passage, he is also ascribed the authority/prerogatives that exclusively belong to YHWH. The details in this chapter overwhelmingly affirm that YHWH visited Abraham by the oaks of Mamre.

Despite the overt clarity of the text though, t8 would say it’s impossible for YHWH to do the things ascribed to Him in Genesis 18, to this I’ll counter with the rhetorical question YHWH posed to Abraham in the very same chapter I quoted:

“Is anything too difficult for the LORD?”

YHWH can take the form of a man and enter our time-space continuum. It’s not “too difficult” for YHWH to do anything that does not compromise His Holy nature, and we should not unduly seek to place limitations on the Almighty God that scripture does not place. The personage that visited Abraham really was YHWH, not a minion sent on YHWH’s behalf. But how do we know this for certain? YHWH tells us so in Exodus 6:3.

2. Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty[/b], but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

YHWH appeared to Abraham as God Almighty (el shadday). It cannot be said more plainly, YHWH “appeared” to Abraham not in the form of a non-divine messenger but as YHWH, God Almighty. Should we believe the statement YHWH has made here? I think we should take YHWH at His word.

YHWH also interacted with Moses, speaking to Him “face to face”:

3. Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”

Is it possible to speak with someone “face to face” and not see them? YHWH reiterates this in Numbers 12:6-8, using even more descriptive language:

4. Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “

Here Moses is NOT spoken to in a dream or vision like some of the other prophets but rather “mouth to mouth”, YHWH goes on to say that He allows Moses to behold (look intently at) the form of the LORD. Again, it could not be more plainly stated that Moses saw YHWH.

Moreover, on at least one occasion YHWH was seen by a multitude of people:

5. Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”

Again we have very clear and precise language being used. No one could honestly mistake the meanings of these two phrases:

“they saw the God of Israel”
“they beheld God”

So has YHWH been seen? Evidently so! It’s difficult to discount even one of the above passages, let alone all five of them, and what I annotated is by no means the sum total of passages in the Bible that show YHWH has been seen by men. It’s just a selection of some of them.

So where does this place t8, and his assertion that the Father has not been seen? In a tight spot, as I would see it. He is faced with a glaring contradiction for which he has offered no tenable explanation.

There is no question that YHWH has been seen….

July 23, 2007 at 10:31 am#61254

charity

Participant

Well someones playing with our heads then?

The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, Jesus,
and who is trying to cut Jesus, The tree of life down by the roots?

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

The options are to have Jesus declared Jesus as the Son of God, As being first made from the seed of David, The Son of Man, that the whole purpose is that we also should reach and share in this inheritance, seeing also our way from the corruptible Man to incorruption of the Sons of God but if he is made the whole soul God, who of us earthlings should even think himself to even able to compare our following ,

July 23, 2007 at 11:41 am#61255

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,02:53)

Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,07:27)

Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

IS left out verse 2 in his original quotation and now everything has come to light. Is God a man?

Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Abraham was visited by the LORD.

Genesis 18:22
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

Would an agent for YHWH say this:

It's not uncommon, Kejonn, for OT writers to ascribe the title “man” to beings that are clearly not real men. Look at the very next chapter in Genesis:

1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

cf.

12Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;

Yes, and you just showed more evidence that YHWH sent His Word to speak through angels. God can use anything to speak to His people, even donkeys! But the fact of the matter is, no one has seen the invisible God, the spirit form of God, God in all of His glory. He always has to assume another form or speak through another being via His Holy Spirit because mortals cannot see Him as He truly is.

Exd 33:18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
Exd 33:19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
Exd 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!“
Exd 33:21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
Exd 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
Exd 33:23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

Regardless of all this, as my post after the one responded to stated, I believe when it is said that no one has seen God, it is talking about what we see above in Exodus 33. So, in my opinion, the usage of the “No one has seen God at any time” to say Yeshua is not God is not a very strong defense. We cannot see Yeshua's spirit no more than we can see anyone's else's spirit, and God is Spirit. So this would not be a defense I would take.

JMHO.

July 23, 2007 at 11:52 am#61256

charity

Participant

sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word [was] in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God.

2Sa 23:1 ¶ Now these [be] the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man [who was] raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,

July 23, 2007 at 12:16 pm#61257

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,02:53)

Would an agent for YHWH say this:

Not a good reply for your defense. Would an agent of YHWH say certain things only the YHWH would say? You be the judge.

Gen 16:10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.”
Gen 16:11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
Gen 16:12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.”
Gen 16:13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?
———————————————–
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Gen 22:12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
———————————————–
Gen 22:15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
———————————————–
Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you,
Jdg 2:2 and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.' But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done?
Jdg 2:3 “Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they will become as thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.' “
———————————————–
Jdg 6:12 The angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior.”
Jdg 6:13 Then Gideon said to him, “O my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, 'Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”
Jdg 6:14 The LORD looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?”
Jdg 6:15 He said to Him, “O Lord, how shall I deliver Israel? Behold, my family is the least in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my father's house.”
Jdg 6:16 But the LORD said to him, “Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man.”
———————————————–
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
Zec 3:8 'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you–indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.
Zec 3:9 'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'

Don't you find it amazing that the angel of YHWH pretty much repeated the words your quote from Gen 18 again in Gen 22:17-18?

July 24, 2007 at 2:43 am#61313

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,20:55)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28)

From a trinitarian’s perspective, I see two possible scenarios that could account for the contravention between 1 John 4:12 and the passages I cited:

1. It’s true that the Father has never been seen but another, also named YHWH, has.
2.The word theos in 1 John 4:12 does not refer to the Father, but the triune God.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Amen.

So God is the Father.

So why all the opposition?

There is one God the Father.
The Father is the one true God.

You said it yourself Isaiah.

So:

God is invisible.
The Father is invisible.
The Father is God.
Jesus is visible.
Jesus has a body.
He is the image of God.
He is the son of God.
So you agree now?
Isn't it amazing that once you are cornered it seems only then do you admit certain truths.
Wouldn't it be better to proclaim them on the rooftops, rather than give some ground when you have to?
Theos in the bible is primarily the Father, but is also used to describe the son of God, sons of God, and false gods.
The Father is the Most High Theos.

July 24, 2007 at 2:45 am#61314

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 23 2007,21:00)

There is no question that YHWH has been seen….

So you are saying:

1) God is invisible
2) YHWH has been seen.

Okay each to there own, but I don't think many are going to follow you with this one.

But then again we shouldn't be drawing men away from the truth in the first place.

July 24, 2007 at 2:51 am#61315

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You say it is possible that
“1. It’s true that the Father has never been seen but another, also named YHWH, has.”

If so how many are called by God's name?
Two, three or more?

Jesus came in his Father's name.

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

So did YHWH come in the name of YHWH?

July 24, 2007 at 2:53 am#61316

Participant

Nick,

No. YHWH came in the name of YHWH but ascended and sent YHWH.

July 24, 2007 at 5:36 am#61339

charity

Participant

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,(David) which made a marriage for his son,(Jesus)
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. HIS SEED shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown [by casting it] to the ground.

July 24, 2007 at 7:38 am#61345

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,23:41)

Exd 33:18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
Exd 33:19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
Exd 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!“
Exd 33:21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
Exd 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
Exd 33:23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

JMHO.

Did not Moses see YHWH in the passage you quoted (Ex. 33:23)? Seems to me he did!

Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

As God Almighty…..

Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”

Face to face….

Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “

Mouth to mouth…
Behold the form…

Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”

Saw the God of Israel….
Beheld God….

Difficult to explain these away.

July 24, 2007 at 7:43 am#61346