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Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 17 2007,21:55) There is also a predicate linked with “Ego eimi” in this verse. It is not reasonable to draw a parallel between this verse and John 8:58 (which lacks a predicate). So t8 you are quite correct when he state “Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.”. But that's because you failed to come up with a passage that parallels the grammar in Exodus 3:14 (or John 8:58).
Look again.In John 18:4-6
3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”
5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.He was simply declaring or affirming that he was indeed Jesus of Nazareth. It is simple and not some kind of hidden code. He wasn't answering the question “Are you YHWH”?
Even the translators didn't capitilise “I AM”, (not that this proves that it is right, as we know that translators can get it wrong), but you seem to put a lot of trust in their interpretations, so why not this time? Do you think that if the Trinitarian translators had the possibility of translating “I am he” as “I Am” that they wouldn't jump at that chance?
Honestly Isaiah, your Trinity lenses are so thick that you can see the Trinity anywhere you want. But that is not really an honest approach. An honest approach to anything requires that you observe and from that you deduce that which you have seen or been shown.
If you deduce from your own understanding and then observe to see if you are right, then you run the chance of being delusional.
Have you ever looked in the clouds and seen animal shapes and then realised that you can think of an animal and then see it if you try hard enough. Well if you try too hard with your own interpretations and understanding, you can see whatever you want. A persons mind can play tricks on them as it is a tool for what is in the heart and what is in the heart is not always true.
The world is full of people who have delusions. Why else do men fly planes into buildings and spend their precious lives locked up in cults?
The traditions of men are prisons for the mind. Let the truth set you free.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Before you start with the “honest approaches” rhetoric t8 you should first come out of the glass house you are in and stop throwing stones…..
Quote (t8 @ July 18 2007,02:58) In John 18:4-6
3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”
5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.He was simply declaring or affirming that he was indeed Jesus of Nazareth. It is simple and not some kind of hidden code. He wasn't answering the question “Are you YHWH”?
Look more closely at verses 5 and 6 t8.The word “he” is in italics in many versions, meaning that it was supplied by the translators and does not belong.
This is the correct translation from the MKJV without the addition.
Joh 18:5 They answered Him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said to them, I AM! And Judas who betrayed Him also stood with them.
Joh 18:6 Then as soon as He had said to them, I AM, they went backward and fell to the ground.If you follow Christ, then you should heed His words.
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins. (MKJV)
Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
These children of the Watchtower have got themselves another Jesus, another spirit as well as another gospel.
Is that you CultB?
Whatever you do, don't answer “I am”.
Think about your answer CultB. Be very careful.Actually I bet I could find in one of your posts somewhere where you said “I am” regarding yourself. If no, I bet you have said “I am” at sometime in your life.
By your own wisdom, that makes you God.
Hehe, the stretches that Trinitarians have to take to “prove” their doctrine. Simple scripture does not teach it, so they have to imply meanings into scripture. This is “eisegesis” BTW.
Jhn 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
Jhn 18:5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
Jhn 18:6 So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
Jhn 18:7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
Jhn 18:8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”What they did say (paraphrased):
Jesus: “Who are you looking for?”
Roman Officers: “Jesus the Nazarene”
Jesus: “I am”What they did NOT say:
Jesus: “Who are you looking for?”
Roman Officers: “God of the Israelites”
Jesus: “I am”I'm guessing that most 1st-8th graders would understand the English here. And as to why they fell to the ground, many had heard of the miracles of Jesus by now, so they knew he had some power of sorts. When they understood it was him, they might have been scared that he would do something to them. After all, they were coming under heavy guard to take Jesus, they must have felt he was dangerous. You must also understand the common people where not that well versed in scripture and would not know what “I am” signified since it was used very little in the OT. They probably knew YHWH, but not “I am”. This band of men was made up of common people, soldiers.
It amazing how some people must ignore context to support their doctrines.
Hi kejonn.
Quote It amazing how some people must ignore context to support their doctrines.
When you are brainwashed or have bias, then everything is distorted. It is often called delusional. I have met people who are biased toward other races or sexes and their judgements in these matters are indeed unbalanced. It is no different with scripture.BTW kejonn the above was a general statement. No directed at you in any way. It was in support of you.
I read it again and it looked to me that it could have been misconstrued.
I read through several pages of this thread but do not have the time to read through all. I noted in the pages I read that no one tackled the Genesis 18 account of an appearance of YHWH. I wanted to take a short stab at this passage.
First off, I note that Is 1:18 only used bits and pieces of the passage and left out very important verses that bring things to light. I can't imagine why no one caught this but let's revisit the passage, or at least some verse that throw things in a new view.
Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,IS left out verse 2 in his original quotation and now everything has come to light. Is God a man?
Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
This already shows that the three men of Genesis 18:2 cannot be God in the flesh, but at least one is a vessel of God carrying his word. So again, Abraham was not seeing God but a vessel of God's word sent to Abraham.
In any case, I think the verses that speak of no one seeing God refers to his spiritual form. Can you see spirit? We know that the Holy Spirit descended upon Yeshua in the form of a dove, but there really is no indication that is was the Spirit alone that was being seen. The shape was formed so that JTB could witness the anointing and know that this was the Messiah he was baptizing:
Jhn 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
Therefore, God is invisible but He can and does use His Holy Spirit to take several forms, including the occupation of humans. So when Yeshua says no one has seen God, all scripture would come together to indicate that no one has seen God in pure spirit.
Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,07:27) I read through several pages of this thread but do not have the time to read through all. I noted in the pages I read that no one tackled the Genesis 18 account of an appearance of YHWH. I wanted to take a short stab at this passage. First off, I note that Is 1:18 only used bits and pieces of the passage and left out very important verses that bring things to light. I can't imagine why no one caught this but let's revisit the passage, or at least some verse that throw things in a new view.
Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,IS left out verse 2 in his original quotation and now everything has come to light. Is God a man?
Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
This already shows that the three men of Genesis 18:2 cannot be God in the flesh, but at least one is a vessel of God carrying his word. So again, Abraham was not seeing God but a vessel of God's word sent to Abraham.
Hi KJ,
Yes God uses vessels be they angels or men such as the prophets, the apostles or Jesus himself. Sadly the theologians can never grasp this.kejonn
Quote Jhn 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
Jhn 18:5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
Jhn 18:6 So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
Jhn 18:7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
Jhn 18:8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”Kejonn. You need to dig deeper into the word of God instead of being a surface reader.
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
If you notice that the word he is in italics in many Bibles which means that it was supplied by the translaters and do not belong in the original scripture.
But there again you Watchtower folk have your own scripture with “another gospel” “another Jesus” and “another spirit”
So Jesus was referring to Himself as “I AM”. He was using the name of Jehovah God as His own. He did this because He is Jehovah God, not the “another Jesus” that you follow.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Hi CB,
So there is a deeper magic in scripture that only mystics can know?
Sounds like the Da Vinci code.
No the truth is for kiddies.Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,16:37)
Kejonn. You need to dig deeper into the word of God instead of being a surface reader.Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
If you notice that the word he is in italics in many Bibles which means that it was supplied by the translaters and do not belong in the original scripture.
But there again you Watchtower folk have your own scripture with “another gospel” “another Jesus” and “another spirit”
So Jesus was referring to Himself as “I AM”. He was using the name of Jehovah God as His own. He did this because He is Jehovah God, not the “another Jesus” that you follow.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
First, you need to get your sniffer fixed. You are barking up the wrong tree. I don't know that I've ever even seen a Watchtower. Your absolute obsession with JWs is noted. Did a JW steal your girlfriend or something?Yes, the word “he” is not present. So what of it? How many times was “I AM” used of YHWH in the OT? The men who had come to capture Yeshua were common men, and probably knew very little of scripture. All they knew was that they were coming to capture a man who was well known in the area for performing miracles that none other could do. That they did know. If you were to try to capture such a person, would you not be frightened? So when Yeshua acknowledged who he was (Jesus the Nazarene), they fell back in fear of this “dangerous” man.
Not only this, but the Jews prior to this had accused Yeshua of having a demon and casting out demons in the name of the ruler of demons. The Jews were likely telling these soldiers the same stories so they expected a man who had power from demons. Would you not be scared of such a man?
Note that their fear soon went away. They could see in Yeshua's next actions that he would come peacefully and not use his “power” to resist them.
Pull the whole of the gospels in, not just a verse here or there that “supports” your theology. The context of Exodus 3 never matches Yeshua's use of “I am”.
Exd 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
Exd 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “In the account above of Yeshua's capture, it was not “Who are you?” It was “Who do you seek” – “Jesus the Nazarene” – “I am”. Yes, he quite plainly stated he was Jesus the Nazarene.
kejonn. Why did they fall backwards at the words I AM?
John 18:5-6 “They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, I am. And Judas also, the one who betrayed Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own? The divine name of “I AM”. And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus?
Look again! It's in your face!
Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
What did Jesus say to them that forced them backward onto the ground. He used the divine name I AM in reference to Himself.
He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.
Then as these words were uttered by Jesus, the vile mob staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. Their wicked hearts filled with terror. They could not for a moment stand upon their feet in the presence of Jesus' Divine Glory, and they fell powerless to the ground.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus said.
John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,11:18) kejonn. Why did they fall backwards at the words I AM?
To CultB.Why did prophets prostrate themselves when they saw an angel? Because they were God?
Is not the son greater than all angels?
If you think that falling backwards makes someone God, then your qualification of who God is must be faulty.
Also have you ever said “I am” in your life?
Were you claiming to be God when you said it?God gave you the ability to think for a reason. That reason was so you could reason. So why not start reasoning? God didn't make you a robot.
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