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WJ,
Thanks for your post.
You write below:
GW put it very well and all she got was scorn without any one challenging the substance of her words in the following…“The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
***************************************I prefer this paraphrased edition of Heb. 1:3 –
Jesus Christ is the reflection of God's power. He is the extraordinary Man whose appearance attracts attention. He radiates the character of God to the world, being the exact impression of God's heart. The invisible God is the unseen foundation upon which Jesus Christ built his life. God is the Author of the master plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ is the Agent who is carrying it out. [Quoted from the book: One God and One Lord – Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith]
However, I will revisit my notes on this subject from a few years ago and see what I thought then compared to what I believe about the one Savior (and Jesus also being called our Savior) now. I do believe that God is our Savior and Jesus Christ is his Son (Savior in his stead, so to speak.).
You write:
These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is “None like him”.
**************************No one is like God. No “one” can ever be like God – not even Jesus. As shocking as that may sound, I believe it's true. Jesus is God's Son, but he was born of a women. God is not a man.
Quote (t8 @ May 18 2007,15:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,07:27) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2007,12:12) So WorshippingJesus. From what you have said, I take that you hold to the view that Jesus created all things and that the he created all these things through himself.
Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
t8Is that all the response that you have?
Rom 11:36
[/I]For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[/I]Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;According to the above scriptures t8 did God create everything through himself?
Why dont you address this scriptures that I post t8?
How can Yeshua have anything to do with the creation if he is not God in light of the scriptures I post.
WJ.It is hard to understand what your stand is.
I cannot figure out from your own explanations to your understanding and teaching whether:
- God created all things through Christ Jesus;
- Jesus created all things through himself;
- Jesus created all things through no one;
- or some other explanation.
If someone asked you who created the universe, I guess your answer would be Jesus.
But what if someone asked you “Who did God create the universe through?”
What would your answer be then?
I think if you teach here, then you should at least make it clear as to that which you teach.
We should be able to give an answer to that which we believe and especially that which we teach. Making everything mysterious can be a hiding place for someone who is confused and lacks understanding.
t8I think it is very clear. You refuse to believe it though.
Instead of just responding to the scriptures that I clearly show that says “ONLY God” created the heavens and the earth. You say you dont understand me.
No t8. According to the scriptures I gave you, God created all things by himself.
You want to say through Jesus. Fine.
I gave you the analogy. Jesus is the contractor the builder.
Romans chapter 11 Paul in context is speaking of God!
Romans 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.Really t8 thats not to hard to understand, and it is consistant with the Hebrew scriptures and with what Jesus said.
t8. The key to understanding the relationship between the Father and the Son is this…
John 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, *The Son can do nothing of himself*, but what *he seeth the Father do*: for what things soever he doeth, *these also doeth the Son likewise*.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and *sheweth him all things that himself doeth*: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; *even so the Son quickeneth whom he will*.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That *all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father*. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.This is an astounding statement by Jesus. He says the Father shows him “all things that he does” and Jesus does them.
You cant seperate the rays from the sun t8. Without the sun there is no rays and without the rays there is no sun.
The same atomic structure that makes the sun is the same as the rays.
You cant seperate the bone and the marrow. Scientist with all our knowledge and telescopes can not tell when bone becomes marrow or when marrow becomes bone.
Only the living Word can seperate the two.
Many scriptures bear out that God is plural and yet one. Again, the creation itself bears this out and declares the Glory of God.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Do we have a contradiction t8?
No we dont. And the Apostles understood this.
This is why the Apostles speaks of Jesus the way they do and why they grabbed his ankles and worshiped him.
They were eye witnesses and heard the authority and the power in his words.
They seen him raise himself from the dead, they even witnessed nature itself, the winds and the seas obey him.
Thomas said unto him “My Lord and my God”.
They knew who he was.
Did Jesus create the universe? You bet ya. Hebrews 1:10 bears that out.
Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, *My Father worketh hitherto, and I work*.Jn 10:
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 *But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works*: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2007,17:41) WJ, Thanks for your post.
You write below:
GW put it very well and all she got was scorn without any one challenging the substance of her words in the following…“The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
***************************************I prefer this paraphrased edition of Heb. 1:3 –
Jesus Christ is the reflection of God's power. He is the extraordinary Man whose appearance attracts attention. He radiates the character of God to the world, being the exact impression of God's heart. The invisible God is the unseen foundation upon which Jesus Christ built his life. God is the Author of the master plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ is the Agent who is carrying it out. [Quoted from the book: One God and One Lord – Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith]
However, I will revisit my notes on this subject from a few years ago and see what I thought then compared to what I believe about the one Savior (and Jesus also being called our Savior) now. I do believe that God is our Savior and Jesus Christ is his Son (Savior in his stead, so to speak.).
You write:
These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is “None like him”.
**************************No one is like God. No “one” can ever be like God – not even Jesus. As shocking as that may sound, I believe it's true. Jesus is God's Son, but he was born of a women. God is not a man.
Not3Do you pray to the Father through Jesus?
Do you pray to Jesus.
If Jesus is not God and you do, according to the 1st and 2nd commandment you have commited Idolatry!
You cant seperate the rays from the sun t8. Without the sun there is no rays and without the rays there is no sun.
*********************
What about during an eclipse?WJ,
I pray to the Father as Jesus instructed. But prior to denouncing the Trinity, I prayed to Jesus. At least I'm not praying to Saints, huh?
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2007,18:08) You cant seperate the rays from the sun t8. Without the sun there is no rays and without the rays there is no sun.
*********************
What about during an eclipse?
not3Do you think the Son stops shinning during an eclipse?
WJ,
This is interesting in that no matter what you try to use to describe your triune God, it is very difficult to graps (i.e.; egg having three parts, water being ice/steam, three leaf clover and so on). I believe the sun and it's rays are another example that falls short.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,08:28) WJ, This is interesting in that no matter what you try to use to describe your triune God, it is very difficult to graps (i.e.; egg having three parts, water being ice/steam, three leaf clover and so on). I believe the sun and it's rays are another example that falls short.
not3It is more difficult for me to grasp how anyone can have a Saviour who is their Lord and their Master and yet they cant talk (pray) to him because the scriptures says if they do that would be against Gods commandments!
I am not trying to be contentious. But I think I have a harder time understanding the logic of the anti-Trinitarians than they have a hard time trying to understand the trinity.
WJ,
I think “praying” might be the hang-up here. We are to pray to the Father. However, we have fellowship on with another, and with God and his Son. Fellowship is relationship. Fellowship doesn't have to mean prayer.
WJ, no one can make sense of the Trinity. It is nonsense. When something offends your mind and the God-given reason and logic we are equiped with – it goes beyond not being able to understand it. It goes into the mystic realm where Jesus is not.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,10:49) WJ, I think “praying” might be the hang-up here. We are to pray to the Father. However, we have fellowship on with another, and with God and his Son. Fellowship is relationship. Fellowship doesn't have to mean prayer.
Not3I disagree!
Prayer is talking to a being you can not see.
If you are fellowshipping with Jesus and talking to him you are praying to him.
What is the difference in this and prayer?
Isnt it prayer when someone calls on the name of Jesus?
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,10:52) WJ, no one can make sense of the Trinity. It is nonsense. When something offends your mind and the God-given reason and logic we are equiped with – it goes beyond not being able to understand it. It goes into the mystic realm where Jesus is not.
not3The trinity makes perfect sense to me.
If you look closely at my recent post here you will see what I am saying in light of scriptures!
Hi w,
Perfect sense?
That arrogant human concoction?
It is indefensible by scriptural standards.And in your heart you know it.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,10:49) WJ, I think “praying” might be the hang-up here. We are to pray to the Father. However, we have fellowship on with another, and with God and his Son. Fellowship is relationship. Fellowship doesn't have to mean prayer.
Hi again N4,
I'm interested to know how your relationship with Yeshua is facilitated if prayer is excluded. Exactly how do you have a relationship with someone you refuse to speak to?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2007,11:57) Hi w,
Perfect sense?
That arrogant human concoction?
It is indefensible by scriptural standards.And in your heart you know it.
NHThanks!
WJ,
I'll think about this some more over dinner – praying to Jesus versus having fellowship through the spirit. I'll post later tonight. Ponder, ponder……WJ writes:
Prayer is talking to a being you can not see.
*****************Prayer is technically an earnest request or addressing a divinity. God encourages us to bring all our requests to him, for it is God that can facilitate the answer to our prayers. Jesus taught us to pray to God for this reason.
1 Cor. 1:9
God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.So it is God who gave us the commandments, and it is God who calls us to fellowship with his Son. Prayer to God is very different from the fellowship we are called to.
Fellowship is companionship. Companionship is friendship. Friendship is not prayer.
With all due respect, WJ and Isaiah, I think you are making prayer too easy a thing by saying it is merely “talking” to Jesus; and in so doing, you are making him God.
If Jesus told me to pray to God – this will I do. If God says that Jesus is my friend – then what a friend I have in Jesus!
Hi not3,
All they say here is always designed is to manipulate you, using the precious words of God, to accepting their false doctrine of trinity
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