Trinity – t8's proof text #2

[Proclaimer]

To WorshippingJesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2007,05:03)

t8 No my point is not silly. The Oneness that we have with Jesus is not the same oneness that he shares with the Father and you know it.

Is that right?

Not the same oneness?

Explain this:

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

You see scripture says clearly that we too can be in God and God in us and in Christ and Christ in us. We can all be one. This was never meant to be taken as being the same God as you teach regarding the one God, the Father and his son.

This same oneness is actually extended to us. Who is us?

Those who believe that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

This is what I believe and teach. We can be one with the one God (the Father) and we can be one with the one lord, the lord Jesus Christ.

Of course it appears that you deny this. That is your choice and you are responsible for your own choices.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

Those who believe that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The above says that there is but one God the Father. (There are no commas in the Greek)

There is also but one God the Son

There is also but one God the Holy Spirit.

It also says  “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,”

Do you believe that the Father is also Lord?

Did I hear yes?

Likewise Jesus is also God.

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
“It also says “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,”

Do you believe that the Father is also Lord?”

There is for US one Lord.
You should not use logic to add to what is written.

[Proclaimer]

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

There are 2 kinds of people here. Us and them. Us believe what is written above wholeheartedly and them believe as CultB believes the following:

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, Lord Father, and Lord Spirit, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

See what happens when men meddle with what is written.

CultB teaches against Paul. Paul specifically said that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't say that there were 3 Gods or 3 Lords like CultB said above or that there are 3 who are God and 3 who are Lord. Paul says that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what he says.

Also CultB doesn't seem to understand that the word 'lord' here is not the same as the word 'LORD' in the Old Testament. The word LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH. They are 2 completely different words and are not related.

So he mixes up these words which fits well with his doctrine and teaching. But that is not what the truth is.

There are those who read scripture for what it is and learn from it and those who change scripture to suit their philosophy. CultB has demonstrated aptly that he is the latter.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

Also CultB doesn't seem to understand that the word 'lord' here is not the same as the word 'LORD' in the Old Testament. The word LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH. They are 2 completely different words and are not related.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

       (NWT) The Holy Spirit is Jehovah
                     His Divinity is Stated

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Cor. 3:17).

Notice who the Spirit is according to the New World Translation:

“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.”    
2 Cor 3:17 New World Translation).

“…exactly as done by Jehovah the Spirit” (2 Cor. 3:18, New World Translation).

(It seems that the arian's own bible cannot hide the truth.)

Just include God the Father with the above distinguished company and you have the three Persons of the Godhead.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2007,10:03)

Quote (t8 @ May 05 2007,22:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2007,11:43) t8 And you can be One flesh with your wife, so I guess that means that all of humanity is one flesh with your wife!!!     Honestly WorshippingJesus shame on you. What a silly thing to say. It is scripture that teaches that we can be one with each other and with the Father and son. It is obvious that it is talking about one in spirit. You then go on about my wife and God knows how you made that connection. One in spirit is not one in flesh. Although perhaps you say such a silly thing because you believe that God and Jesus are one in substance and then somehow correlate that with the oneness of a husband and wife. Like I said God knows. Anyway it just reinforces to me that you have no idea what 'one' really means regarding being one with God and the oneness that the Father and son have. It is another proof of your lack of understanding in such matters. You should pray to God for wisdom. t8 No my point is not silly. The Oneness that we have with Jesus is not the same oneness that he shares with the Father and you know it. Or else we would be dwelling in each other. And the Spirit would be proceeding from our being as it proceeds from the Father and the Son. Also we would be “The Spirit” which the Lord “Yeshau” is. And we could drink each others Spirit. Jesus is one being, one Spirit with the Father and we are united in them by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, one Spirit. We are not united by our own Spirit. Since you claim to have such oneness with the Father t8, you should be saying like Yeshua… Jn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*. Jn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water *that I shall give him shall never thirst*; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Or maybe you also should make this claim since you make your unity with the Father the same as Jesus… Jn 16:15 *All things that the Father hath are mine*: therefore said I, that *he (the Father) shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you. And I suppose that men should worship you as well, since you share the same oneness that Yeshua shares with the Father. So as you can see t8, it is not I that gets the Oneness of the Father and the Son and the Spirit mixed up with the oneness we share in unity with them. It is you that shows the falacy of your carnal, fleshly, human logic, which is puffed up without the Spirit. Each time you expound on your human logic to bring down the Son to your image, it only shows that you have no revelation of the truth but deny the very truth and the Lord God our Saviour. You posted on one thread concerning early church Fathers and how they denied the Trinitarian view. Which none of the Fathers wrote anything that even remotely said “The Trinity is False. But you failed to mention those writings that show they supported the Trinitarian view and actually condemn those who didnt hold to the view. Heres what Ignatius the desciple of the Beloved John also wrote… For “there is also,” saith, *one Spirit since* “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” *There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete.* Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, *commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit* not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, *but into three [persons]* possessed of equal honour [one name]. and For some are in the habit of *carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile*, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, *even Jesus Christ our Lord*. (To the Philippians, II). And *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches. 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples, 1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did. As you can see here the Trinitarian view existed long before Constantine which you and many claim the Church fabricated centurys later which is a lie!!! Yeshua truly is the “Lord” from heaven and has a oneness with the Father and the Spirit which you apparently know nothing about or even deny. One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

Quote (t8 @ May 06 2007,23:56)

To WorshippingJesus. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2007,05:03) t8 No my point is not silly. The Oneness that we have with Jesus is not the same oneness that he shares with the Father and you know it. Is that right? Not the same oneness? Explain this: John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. You see scripture says clearly that we too can be in God and God in us and in Christ and Christ in us. We can all be one. This was never meant to be taken as being the same God as you teach regarding the one God, the Father and his son. This same oneness is actually extended to us. Who is us? Those who believe that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. This is what I believe and teach. We can be one with the one God (the Father) and we can be one with the one lord, the lord  Jesus Christ. Of course it appears that you deny this. That is your choice and you are responsible for your own choices.

t8

So let me see if I understand.

You think that we share Deity with the Father and the Word/God the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God?

So we are all (Monogenes) Sons?

John 17:21
*that all of them may be one*, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. *May they also be in us* so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Notice the “In Us” t8? Notice the “all of them may be one”?

Yeshua and the Father is in us and we are in “Them”.

Ring a bell?

Gen 1:26
And God said, *Let us* make man *in our image, after our likeness*: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There is the Father and Yeshua, and there is the us!

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus never mentioned in his prayer that knowing us would be Eternal life did he?

And as far as I know there was no born again Son of God present in the creation, was there?

Now if this Oneness that you say we have is the same as the Father and the Son, then it would mean the “us” would be in each other.

Yeshua is the “Exact representation of his substance”, we are not.

Can we ever make that claim? If we could we would be God.

Yeshua is deity, we are not. Yeshua lives in us, we dont live in each other.

Do we have the exact representation of his substance?

Then being one with him and sharing his divine nature is not the same as being deity of which Yeshua is.

t8, do you believe we are equal to the Son in being?

[942767]

Hi WJ:

You say:

Yeshua lives in us, we dont live in each other. (If Yeshua lives in “us”, that would mean that we are obeying the same Word of God, and so, the “we” should be the Word of God that we are applying to our daily lives, therefore, yes, we do live in each other in that sense)

Ga 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ( Obviously, we are not quite there yet)

If we are born again believers we are Sons of God by the spirit of adoption and Jesus is our brother.

Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.  
2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,  
2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.  
2:13
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.  
2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

God Bless

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi WJ: You say: Yeshua lives in us, we dont live in each other. (If Yeshua lives in “us”, that would mean that we are obeying the same Word of God, and so, the “we” should be the Word of God that we are applying to our daily lives, therefore, yes, we do live in each other in that sense)

94

To far out for me Bro!

[Proclaimer]

Quote

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. There are 2 kinds of people here. Us and them. Us believe what is written above wholeheartedly and them believe as CultB believes the following: yet for us there is but one God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, Lord Father, and Lord Spirit, through whom all things came and through whom we live. See what happens when men meddle with what is written. CultB teaches against Paul. Paul specifically said that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't say that there were 3 Gods or 3 Lords like CultB said above or that there are 3 who are God and 3 who are Lord. Paul says that there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what he says. Also CultB doesn't seem to understand that the word 'lord' here is not the same as the word 'LORD' in the Old Testament. The word LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH. They are 2 completely different words and are not related. So he mixes up these words which fits well with his doctrine and teaching. But that is not what the truth is. There are those who read scripture for what it is and learn from it and those who change scripture to suit their philosophy. CultB has demonstrated aptly that he is the latter.

Quote (Cult Buster @ May 08 2007,19:03)

t8 Quote Also CultB doesn't seem to understand that the word 'lord' here is not the same as the word 'LORD' in the Old Testament. The word LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH. They are 2 completely different words and are not related. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (NWT) The Holy Spirit is Jehovah His Divinity is Stated “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Cor. 3:17). Notice who the Spirit is according to the New World Translation: “Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.” 2 Cor 3:17 New World Translation). “…exactly as done by Jehovah the Spirit” (2 Cor. 3:18, New World Translation). (It seems that the arian's own bible cannot hide the truth.) Just include God the Father with the above distinguished company and you have the three Persons of the Godhead. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

In other words CultB, your defense is against 1 Corinthians 8:6 are these other scriptures and you obviously have no answer for 1 Corinthians 8:6 contradicting your teaching.

Doesn't that bother you? Surely there must be at least a little niggle in your conscience regarding this? How can you nullify a scripture by using other ones? All scripture is truth. If you understand the truth, then no scripture will contradict what you believe.

YET 1 Corinthians 8:6 CONTRADICTS YOUR TEACHING.

So who/what needs to change? You or 1 Corinthians 8:6?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19)

t8 So let me see if I understand. You think that we share Deity with the Father and the Word/God the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God? So we are all (Monogenes) Sons?

To WJ.

I say what scripture says. That we can be one with God and with his son. We can be in them and they in us.

I also say as scripture says, that we can share in divine nature.

You can call me what you like or ridicule what I am saying here, but I only repeat that which is written.

As far as your question, “So we are all (Monogenes) Sons?”.

The answer is self evident. The first one is.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

[Proclaimer]

To WJ.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19)

Yeshua and the Father is in us and we are in “Them”. Ring a bell? Gen 1:26 And God said, *Let us* make man *in our image, after our likeness*: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. There is the Father and Yeshua, and there is the us!

Yes it rings a bell.

If it is indeed plural then it is simply God talking to Christ.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ding ding

[Proclaimer]

To WJ.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19)

Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent. Jesus never mentioned in his prayer that knowing us would be Eternal life did he?

I am not saying this. I am simply pointing out that if the Father and the son are one, that is not meant to be taken as 'one being'. It is your logic that would say this because scripture also says that we can be one with the Father and the son.

So it is your view that leads to such a conclusion not mine.

That is the point WJ. Do you understand now?

I will say it again in case you don't get it.

If the Father and the son are one, yet we can also be one with them, then it cannot mean one being because if it did, we would be God. Of course I do not believe this, but it is the logical conclusion for those who say that the Father and the son are one means that they are one being.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) t8 So let me see if I understand. You think that we share Deity with the Father and the Word/God the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God? So we are all (Monogenes) Sons? To WJ. I say what scripture says. That we can be one with God and with his son. We can be in them and they in us. I also say as scripture says, that we can share in divine nature. You can call me what you like or ridicule what I am saying here, but I only repeat that which is written. As far as your question, “So we are all (Monogenes) Sons?”. The answer is self evident. The first one is. Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

t8

There is only one “monogenes” “Unique” Son.

Which is the Word/God in the flesh!

We shall share in his nature, but we will not share in his divinity!

[Proclaimer]

I agree. Yes indeed there is one firstborn son (prototype) and there are many sons.

As far as divine nature goes: have you not read that we will partake in divine nature?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:18)

To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) Yeshua and the Father is in us and we are in “Them”. Ring a bell? Gen 1:26 And God said, *Let us* make man *in our image, after our likeness*: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. There is the Father and Yeshua, and there is the us! Yes it rings a bell. God was talking to Christ. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ding ding.

t8

Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Again t8.

If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures…

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, *I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad *the earth by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

And if Yeshua is not YHWH/God in the flesh you also contradict these Hebrew scriptures..

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

How do you explain this?

Also, you still have not given me your take on John 1:1 and John 20:28.

I will assume if you dont answer then you dont have an answer.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:23)

To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent. Jesus never mentioned in his prayer that knowing us would be Eternal life did he? I am not saying this. I am simply pointing out that if the Father and the son are one, that is not meant to be taken as 'one being'. It is your logic that would say this because scripture also says that we can be one with the Father and the son. So it is your view that leads to such a conclusion not mine. That is the point WJ. Do you understand now? I will say it again in case you don't get it. If the Father and the son are one, yet we can also be one with them, then it cannot mean one being because if it did, we would be God. Of course I do not believe this, but it is the logical conclusion for those who say that the Father and the son are one means that they are one being.

t8

Exactly!

I am glad that you see that being one with God does not mean that we will be God or share in his divinity!

So, now we just have to reconcile the scriptures that says Yeshua is “Theos”.

So again, can you give me your take on Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,17:01)

I agree. Yes indeed there is one firstborn son (prototype) and there are many sons. As far as divine nature goes: have you not read that we will partake in divine nature?

t8

Maybe I should have been more precise.

We will not share his Deity!

[Cult Buster]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,21:41)

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:23) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and Jesus Christ*, whom thou hast sent. Jesus never mentioned in his prayer that knowing us would be Eternal life did he? I am not saying this. I am simply pointing out that if the Father and the son are one, that is not meant to be taken as 'one being'. It is your logic that would say this because scripture also says that we can be one with the Father and the son. So it is your view that leads to such a conclusion not mine. That is the point WJ. Do you understand now? I will say it again in case you don't get it. If the Father and the son are one, yet we can also be one with them, then it cannot mean one being because if it did, we would be God. Of course I do not believe this, but it is the logical conclusion for those who say that the Father and the son are one means that they are one being. t8 Exactly! I am glad that you see that being one with God does not mean that we will be God or share in his divinity! So, now we just have to reconcile the scriptures that says Yeshua is “Theos”. So again, can you give me your take on Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

I'm not sure if you will get a response from t8 on this one. He is a bit evasive these days like Nick.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

What's happened to t8 and the debate? Has he conceded or something? Or are we putting too much pressure on the poor fella?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,17:29)

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:18) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) Yeshua and the Father is in us and we are in “Them”. Ring a bell? Gen 1:26 And God said, *Let us* make man *in our image, after our likeness*: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. There is the Father and Yeshua, and there is the us! Yes it rings a bell. God was talking to Christ. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ding ding. t8 Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Again t8. If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures… Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, *I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad *the earth by myself*; Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*. And if Yeshua is not YHWH/God in the flesh you also contradict these Hebrew scriptures.. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*. Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*. Hsa 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*. How do you explain this? Also, you still have not given me your take on John 1:1 and John 20:28. I will assume if you dont answer then you dont have an answer.

Hi W,
God is the saviour, the ultimate source of salvation, but now for us this is only accessible through our appointed saviour and appointed Lord, His Son Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,17:43)

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,17:01) I agree. Yes indeed there is one firstborn son (prototype) and there are many sons. As far as divine nature goes: have you not read that we will partake in divine nature? t8 Maybe I should have been more precise. We will not share his Deity!

Hi W,
There is for us only one deity, one God and we should not appoint more for ourselves.
The fullness of that deity is in our appointed Lord, His Son Jesus Christ.
That God also wishes to dwell in us, by His Spirit.
One in the Spirit in Christ and in God.

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