Trinity – t8's proof text #2

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2007,10:26)

Hi W, God is not a man and should not be made to be in man's image. God does not have a body. God is Spirit. So how can we look at these verses with such truths in view?

NH

Obviously by the carnal mind and carnal logic, blinded with Arian teaching you cant look at the truth as it plainly shows.

You are still bound with the belief that “its not possible” for YHWH to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh, because Jesus is just a man to you.

So you simply cast aside scriptures that contradict your faith and chalk them up as null and void.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Jesus is the son of God.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2007,23:29)

The law of agency is no more since YHWH has come in the flesh, for he now is the only agent to the Father.

I have heard it all now!
YHWH is His own agent!! LOL
Thanks WJ
Like I said, its been fun!

Personally I'll stick with the simplicity of Scripture.
The man Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son, GOD's Messiah; is the Agent of the ONE GOD, The Father!

Adieu

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 24 2007,16:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2007,23:29) The law of agency is no more since YHWH has come in the flesh, for he now is the only agent to the Father. I have heard it all now! YHWH is His own agent!! LOL Thanks WJ Like I said, its been fun! Personally I'll stick with the simplicity of Scripture. The man Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son, GOD's Messiah; is the Agent of the ONE GOD, The Father! Adieu

AP

Thanks!

I didnt think you would believe me.

By the way what is your take on Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,16:49)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 24 2007,16:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2007,23:29) The law of agency is no more since YHWH has come in the flesh, for he now is the only agent to the Father. I have heard it all now! YHWH is His own agent!! LOL Thanks WJ Like I said, its been fun! Personally I'll stick with the simplicity of Scripture. The man Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son, GOD's Messiah; is the Agent of the ONE GOD, The Father! Adieu AP Thanks! I didnt think you would believe me. By the way what is your take on Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

AP

Oh and by the way. Dont you believe it is possible for YHWY to be his own agent? Is not the God of the Universe capable of doing this?

Is he not true to his own words, or did he change his mind?

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*[/U].

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Did God not send His son then?

[Cult Buster]

Adam Pastor

Quote

I love the way both CB & Tim2 evade Jeremiah 33.16! Tim2, just as in Jere 33.16 … “There is no suggestion in the Bible that a city or an entire nation is God;” likewise Jere 23.6 is neither stating that Israel nor the king of Israel, is GOD Almighty! However, just as Jere 33.16 does infer that the city of Jerusalem will represent GOD Almighty likewise Jere 23.6 infers that the man Messiah, the king of Israel [John 1.49] will represent GOD Almighty! Always remember, the Jewish law of agency CB, who is the LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS in Jere 33.16? And what does Jere 33.16 say about the city of Jerusalem in regards to the LORD?? Anyways, it has been fun! Thanks guys for your replies.

Pastor Adam.  Neither Tim 2 nor myself have been evading Jeremiah 33:16.

As previously discussed, some non inspired words have been wrongly added by the translators. These words in italics 'is the name' were inserted to justify the translators interpretation of the verse. Likewise some of the Hebrew words have several meanings.

For example, the word “called”. Let us take a closer look and see whether the translators have used the correct translation.

Jer 33:15  In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called , (qara) The LORD our righteousness.

H7121
קרא
qârâ'
kaw-raw'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met); to call out to (that is, properly address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications): – bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

As you can see Adam, the primary meaning of “qârâ'” is to call out to, or to cry unto.

So it seems that the translators, as well as adding non inspired words and punctuation, have misinterpreted the word “qârâ'”.

Let us now apply the correct translation of qârâ' to these verses and observe its true meaning. I will include the previous verse because it refers to the Messiah Jesus, the Branch of righteousness, from the lineage of David.

Jer 33:15-16  In those days and at that time will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land
 In those days shall Judah be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely and this wherewith she shall be crying unto The LORD our righteousness

Judah and Jerusalem who were in Babylonian captivity were to be crying unto the LORD Jehovah our righteousness.

The city of Jerusalem is not Jehovah; that is absurd!

There you are Adam. It is now settled.  Jesus the Branch of righteousness. is the LORD Jehovah our righteousness.  

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,06:01)

Oh and by the way. Dont you believe it is possible for YHWY to be his own agent? Is not the God of the Universe capable of doing this?

WJ

Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the GOD of the Universe to lie?

• (Titus 1:2)  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
• (Heb 6:18)  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the eternal, immortal GOD of the Universe to die?

• (Hab. 1:12) Are you not from of old, O LORD [YHWH] my God, my Holy One? You shall not die. … [New Revised Standard Version]
• (Hab. 1:12) Art not, thou, from of old, O Yahweh, my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not! … [J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible]
• (Isa 57:15)  For thus says the high and exalted One
  Who lives forever, whose name is Holy … [New American Standard Bible]
• (1 Tim 6:16)  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
• (1 Tim 1:17)  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

WJ, once you have honestly answered these 2 questions; than you would have answered your own question!!

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Cult Buster @ April 24 2007,12:08)

For example, the word “called”. Let us take a closer look and see whether the translators have used the correct translation. Jer 33:15  In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called , (qara) The LORD our righteousness. H7121 קרא qârâ' kaw-raw' A primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met); to call out to (that is, properly address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications): – bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say. As you can see Adam, the primary meaning of “qârâ'” is to call out to, or to cry unto. So it seems that the translators, as well as adding non inspired words and punctuation, have misinterpreted the word “qârâ'”. Let us now apply the correct translation of qârâ' to these verses and observe its true meaning. I will include the previous verse because it refers to the Messiah Jesus, the Branch of righteousness, from the lineage of David. Jer 33:15-16  In those days and at that time will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land  In those days shall Judah be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely and this wherewith she shall be crying unto The LORD our righteousness Judah and Jerusalem who were in Babylonian captivity were to be crying unto the LORD Jehovah our righteousness. The city of Jerusalem is not Jehovah; that is absurd! There you are Adam. It is now settled.  Jesus the Branch of righteousness. is the LORD Jehovah our righteousness.

OK! Therefore Jere 23.5-6 can equally be translated :-
(Jer 23:5-6)  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be crying unto , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

So, Jesus the Branch of righteousness, will be crying (or calling) unto the LORD Jehovah our righteousness.
(Or equally could be interpreted as Israel calling unto that name!)

Amen! That makes sense. Wouldn't be the first time that the Messiah calls upon YAHWEH His GOD.

Thanks for that CB!

[Cult Buster]

H7121
קרא
qârâ'
kaw-raw'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met); to call out to (that is, properly address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications): – bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

Adam. Have another look at “qara”.

qara =  “proclaimed” “pronounced” “called” “preached” etc.

Adam. Always look at the context of scripture.

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called,(proclaimed or pronounced or preached) THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

…Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness…  1Co 1:30  

Christ Jesus, who of God, the righteous Branch, and a King, from the lineage of David, is THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS  

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
you quote
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

So was he OF GOD or GOD?

[Tim2]

Nick,

Read the Nicene Creed. Jesus is God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
In which part of the bible will I find it written?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 25 2007,00:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,06:01) Oh and by the way. Dont you believe it is possible for YHWY to be his own agent? Is not the God of the Universe capable of doing this? WJ Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the GOD of the Universe to lie? (Titus 1:2)  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Heb 6:18)  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the eternal, immortal GOD of the Universe to die? (Hab. 1:12) Are you not from of old, O LORD [YHWH] my God, my Holy One? You shall not die. … [New Revised Standard Version] (Hab. 1:12) Art not, thou, from of old, O Yahweh, my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not! … [J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible] (Isa 57:15)  For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy … [New American Standard Bible] (1 Tim 6:16)  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 1:17)  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. WJ, once you have honestly answered these 2 questions; than you would have answered your own question!!

Did you happen to see my previous post?

I said…

Quote

AP Thanks! I didnt think you would believe me. By the way what is your take on Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

If you have some insight on these scriputers I would appreciate it.

Now, You say…

Quote

WJ Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the GOD of the Universe to lie? (Titus 1:2)  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Heb 6:18)  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Exactly my point.

We know Yeshua is our “Only Saviour and lord”, the mediator by whom we approach the Father through his flesh right.

Yet we read..
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

Since we know that scriptures declare that there is *None beside him* (YHWH), and yet Yeshua is our Saviour, then we only have three possible scenarios,

1. God lied

2. The scriputers contradict themselves

3. YWHY is the only Saviour and there is none beside him.

Now in light of Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 and Heb 1:8 and Heb 1:10
and (Zech 12:10 & Jn 19:37) and Zech 14 and Acts 20:28 and many more, option #3 is the only way to reconcile the scriputers without making God a liar or having contradictions in scripures and the scriptures being broken.

You say…

Quote

Is it possible, is it capable for YHWH, the eternal, immortal GOD of the Universe to die? (Hab. 1:12) Are you not from of old, O LORD [YHWH] my God, my Holy One? You shall not die. … [New Revised Standard Version] (Hab. 1:12) Art not, thou, from of old, O Yahweh, my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not! … [J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible] (Isa 57:15)  For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy … [New American Standard Bible] (1 Tim 6:16)  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 1:17)  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This is another one of those straws against the tinity.

Whos says if the Word/God takes on the likeness of sinful flesh that his Eternal Spirit had to die?

Jn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me *shall never die.* Believest thou this?

When a believer is born again he “Has eternal life”.

Jn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, *hath eternal life*; and I will raise him up (his Body) at the last day.

James 2:26
For as *the body without the spirit is dead*, so faith without works is dead also.

When we die our bodys die, our Spirits go to be with the Lord.

2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yeshua was and is the resurection and the life. His Eternal Spirit didnt die, he gave up the breath (Ghost) that was in his body.

Lev 17:11
*For the life of the flesh is in the blood*: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The broken Body and spilled blood of Jesus was the only requirement in the law for remission of sins not his Eternal Spirit.

Heb 10:
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Body of Yeshua/YHWY is the Body of God.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the*church of God*, which he hath purchased with his own blood
.

If Jesus Eternal Spirit died then how did he spend three days in the center of the earth preaching?

Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.  

Acts 2:27
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, *being put to death in the flesh*, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Jesus was/is the Resurection and the life. His Spirit didnt die.

How could he raise himself from the dead?

Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I* will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

His Temple was his body. He raised it up.

So do we have another contradiction? Jesus says “I” will raise it up.

And yet we read…

Acts 13:37
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Absolutly not a contradiction, because Yeshua is one with the Father the Word/God who was with God and was God that was tabernacled among us, YHWH in the flesh, the Lord from heaven, who gave his body as a living sacrifice, the Manna from heaven the bread of life that whoever would drink of his Eternal Spirit, his blood and eat of his flesh would have Eternal life.

Thomas knew that Yeshua had claimed to raise himself from the dead and cried out “My Lord and my God”.

So yes the prophesys were the fulfillment of YHWH coming in the flesh to fulfill all that was written of him.

The only way to harmonize all scriptures is with a Trinitarian view.

Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The scriptures are a biography of God. Yet Jesus takes claim to them.

You say…

Quote

WJ, once you have honestly answered these 2 questions; than you would have answered your own question!!

I have answered your questions now maybe you can answer mine?

Based on the following scriptures and knowing that Yeshua is the only Saviour…

1. Did God lie?

2. Do the scriptures contradict themselves?

3. How do you reconcile these in light of Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28?

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

Blessings  

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Did you think there was another saviour besides God?
No only servants through whom who God saves.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,09:16)

Hi W, Did you think there was another saviour besides God? No only servants through whom who God saves.

NH

I am glad to see that you believe that *only God* is our Saviour!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God indeed is the Saviour,
Christ is a servant who administers the kingdom of God.
However he is given to be the way and for us there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

You must know the name of the Son of God and come to the Lord.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,09:51)

Hi W, God indeed is the Saviour, Christ is a servant who administers the kingdom of God. However he is given to be the way and for us there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. You must know the name of the Son of God and come to the Lord.

NH

Ahh, so there is another agent other than God?

This contradicts the Hebrew scriptures.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“Ahh, so there is another agent other than God?”
Is God an agent of a greater being?
No.
The Son is.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Have you not yet known the salvation of God?
It is found in the Son.

[Author]

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