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Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 23 2007,14:12) Quote (Cult Buster @ April 22 2007,12:14) t8
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.t8. If you don't believe that “THE LORD” is referring to Jehovah (Jesus) examine the Hebrew.
Jer 23:5 Behold,2009 the days3117 come,935 saith5002 the LORD3068 that I will raise6965 unto David1732 a righteous6662 Branch,6780 and a King4428 shall reign4427 and prosper,7919 and shall execute6213 judgment4941 and justice6666 in the earth.776
Jer 23:6 In his days3117 Judah3063 shall be saved,3467 and Israel3478 shall dwell7931 safely:983 and this2088 is his name8034 whereby834 he shall be called,7121 THE LORD3068 OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.6664H3068
yeh-ho-vaw'
(the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: – Jehovah, the Lord.Don't get upset at me t8. Check out the Hebrew for yourself. Jeremiah 23:5-6 is referring to Jesus as Jehovah. …
So using your logic, CB
The city of Jerusalem is Almighty GOD as well!!
(Jer 33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
It is exactly the same identical Hebrew!! (Well at least the underlined portion!) Hmmm.
Hopefully you will then realize that just as Jeremiah is NOT identifying the city of Jerusalem as YAHWEH GOD Himself;
in like manner he is NOT identifying the Messiah, the human king of Israel as YAHWEH GOD Himself!Remember CB, the Hebrew is identical.
Ask yourself, is the city of Jerusalem, Almighty GOD Himself??
Adam Pastor.Let us have a closer look at Jeremiah 33:16.
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
First point. The words “is the name” which are in italics, were supplied by the translators and were not part of the original Hebrew.
Second point the comma after “called” and the colon were also supplied and do not belong. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew without punctuation marks.
By removing these non inspired words and punctuation, this verse can thus take on a very different meaning. For example
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely and this wherewith she shall be
called The LORD our righteousness.If we were to accept an uninspired comma, then why not place it after “shall be”?
This verse is really saying that Jerusalem who was once in Babylonian captivity, and now dwelling safely, in those days will have called out to “The LORD our righteousness”
Read from the same chapter.
Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
Jer 33:7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
This verse you quoted with its non inspired additions and variable interpretatations cannot be used to disprove Jeremiah 23:5-6 which obviously refers to Jesus as Lord (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 23:5 Behold the days come saith the LORD that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch and a King shall reign and prosper and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely and this his name whereby he shall be called THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSNo Adam. The city of Jerusalem is not Almighty God. Jesus is!
WOW!
CB 10 OUT OF 10 FOR ORIGINALITYJer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely and this wherewith she shall be
called The LORD our righteousness.Let's use the same logic … if 'she' in the above refers to Jerusalem
Then the 'he' in the following must refer to Israel!!
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely and this his name
whereby he shall be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSThus, CB, Israel who was once in Babylonian captivity, and now dwelling safely, in those days will have called out the name of “The LORD our righteousness”
Agreed??
PS Just as Jerusalem is not Almighty GOD
neither is Israel!!Adam,
There is no suggestion in the Bible that a city or an entire nation is God. But the Bible explicitly says that the Christ is God (John 1:1). You say this means he's just like Moses or a judge of Israel (because all things were created through Moses, right? And all things are for the judges of Israel, right?)
So given explicit declaration that the Christ is God, verses such as Jeremiah 23:6 provide further confirmation that this is no ordinary human ruler, but God, Jehovah. For the verse declares that the Christ will be Jehovah our righteousness. This means that no one other than Jehovah can be the righteousness of those whom the Christ saves. This principle is further confirmed by references to Jerusalem with Jehovah our Righteousness, for Jehovah is the righteousness of His saints. But 1 Corinthians 1:30 tells us that Jesus is their righteousness. Now unless Paul was contradicting Scripture, He was confirming that Jesus is Jehovah, for Jehovah is the righteousness of His people.
You might also note that in 1 Corinthians Paul says that Jesus is the Rock from whom the Israelites drank. But we know from Isaiah 44:8 that there is no Rock besides Jehovah. Your response to this will no doubt be, akin to your analysis of elohim, that there are in fact many rocks scattered across the face of the earth.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 24 2007,00:20) Adam, There is no suggestion in the Bible that a city or an entire nation is God. But the Bible explicitly says that the Christ is God (John 1:1). You say this means he's just like Moses or a judge of Israel (because all things were created through Moses, right? And all things are for the judges of Israel, right?)
So given explicit declaration that the Christ is God, verses such as Jeremiah 23:6 provide further confirmation that this is no ordinary human ruler, but God, Jehovah. For the verse declares that the Christ will be Jehovah our righteousness. This means that no one other than Jehovah can be the righteousness of those whom the Christ saves. This principle is further confirmed by references to Jerusalem with Jehovah our Righteousness, for Jehovah is the righteousness of His saints. But 1 Corinthians 1:30 tells us that Jesus is their righteousness. Now unless Paul was contradicting Scripture, He was confirming that Jesus is Jehovah, for Jehovah is the righteousness of His people.
You might also note that in 1 Corinthians Paul says that Jesus is the Rock from whom the Israelites drank. But we know from Isaiah 44:8 that there is no Rock besides Jehovah. Your response to this will no doubt be, akin to your analysis of elohim, that there are in fact many rocks scattered across the face of the earth.
Tim
Have another look Adam.
Jer 23:5 Behold the days come saith the LORD that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch and a King shall reign and prosper and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely and this his name whereby he shall be called THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSQ. Who is the LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS?
A. A righteous Branch and a King from the lineage of David, which according to scripture is Jesus.
These verses are not saying that Israel or Judah is Jehovah our righteousness . They are referring to a righteous Branch and a King from the lineage of David whose name is Jehovah Our Righteousness which can only be Jesus.
Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Jesus is THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
I love the way both CB & Tim2 evade Jeremiah 33.16!
Tim2, just as in Jere 33.16 … “There is no suggestion in the Bible that a city or an entire nation is God;” likewise Jere 23.6 is neither stating that Israel nor the king of Israel, is GOD Almighty!
However, just as Jere 33.16 does infer that the city of Jerusalem will represent GOD Almighty likewise Jere 23.6 infers that the man Messiah, the king of Israel [John 1.49] will represent GOD Almighty!
Always remember, the Jewish law of agencyCB, who is the LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS in Jere 33.16?
And what does Jere 33.16 say about the city of Jerusalem in regards to the LORD??Anyways, it has been fun!
Thanks guys for your replies.Adam,
With respect to Jeremiah 33:16, note that the previous verse prophecies the coming of the Christ. If you compare 33:15-16 with 23:5-6, you will see that they are parallel verses and proclaim the coming of the Messiah, as is indicated by the promise of perpetual kingship and priesthood in vv. 33:17-18. Now if 33:16 is talking about the city and not the Messiah, and I don't know enough Hebrew to tell (and this section isn't in the Septuagint), then you still have the problem of 1 Corinthians 1:30. For Jesus is the righteousness of His people. But 33:16 tells us the Jehovah is.
Tim
Adam Pastor – don't say your goodbyes so soon. You're not going anywhere!
I'm enjoying this thread….Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 24 2007,03:40) I love the way both CB & Tim2 evade Jeremiah 33.16! Tim2, just as in Jere 33.16 … “There is no suggestion in the Bible that a city or an entire nation is God;” likewise Jere 23.6 is neither stating that Israel nor the king of Israel, is GOD Almighty!
However, just as Jere 33.16 does infer that the city of Jerusalem will represent GOD Almighty likewise Jere 23.6 infers that the man Messiah, the king of Israel [John 1.49] will represent GOD Almighty!
Always remember, the Jewish law of agencyCB, who is the LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS in Jere 33.16?
And what does Jere 33.16 say about the city of Jerusalem in regards to the LORD??Anyways, it has been fun!
Thanks guys for your replies.
APAnd again.
If you use your logic to say that LORD, YHWH is meaning in this instance “An Agent”, then how do you know when to apply the Hebrew word LORD, YHWH to God?
Simply because you do not understand how Yeshua can be YHWH is no reason to read into the literal interpretation and insiist that your interpretation is Unambiguous.
Seems its a matter of interpretation as again Zech 12 and 14 shows that YHWH is Yeshua.
Evidence points to YHWH being Yeshua especially as Is 1:18 brings out Zech 12.
Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.John 19:33-37
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.John clearly ascribes Zech 12:10 to Yeshua meaning Yeshua is YHWY.
This is the same “who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true”, and this same John recorded John 1:1 and John 20:28.
John obviously knew who this “Unique” Son of God was.
YHWY, Came in the flesh.
Hi W,
God is not the Son of God.
Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.God will pour out blessings.
They will look on him whom they have pierced-Christ the returning king.
They will finally repent and bitterly mourn for the Son of God whom they pierced and killed.
He who called out to his God from the cross.Ps 22
” 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. “
John 19:33-37
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.And you said
“John clearly ascribes Zech 12:10 to Yeshua meaning Yeshua is YHWY.”Nonsense
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2007,08:32) Hi W,
God is not the Son of God.
Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.God will pour out blessings.
They will look on him whom they have pierced-Christ the returning king.
They will finally repent and bitterly mourn for the Son of God whom they pierced and killed.
He who called out to his God from the cross.Ps 22
” 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. “
John 19:33-37
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.And you said
“John clearly ascribes Zech 12:10 to Yeshua meaning Yeshua is YHWY.”Nonsense
Sorry NH!Its clear and you are saying that Johns words in ascribing Zech 12:10 to Yeshua is nonsence.
LOL.
You place yourself above the scriptures and the Apostles and the Eyewitnesses of those things.
Scary!
NH
Why dont you answer these questions that Isaiah had for t8 concerning Zech 12:10.
Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.
Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.
Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,09:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2007,08:32) Hi W,
God is not the Son of God.
Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.God will pour out blessings.
They will look on him whom they have pierced-Christ the returning king.
They will finally repent and bitterly mourn for the Son of God whom they pierced and killed.
He who called out to his God from the cross.Ps 22
” 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. “
John 19:33-37
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.And you said
“John clearly ascribes Zech 12:10 to Yeshua meaning Yeshua is YHWY.”Nonsense
Sorry NH!Its clear and you are saying that Johns words in ascribing Zech 12:10 to Yeshua is nonsence.
LOL.
You place yourself above the scriptures and the Apostles and the Eyewitnesses of those things.
Scary!
Hi w,
Not so.
You offered us inference as “truth” one more time.
Such is the voice of a stranger and we do not listen to strangersNH
No inference.
Answer the questions. Who was John referring to when he ascribed Zech 12:10 to Yeshua saying…
THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.
NH
You say…
Quote
Such is the voice of a stranger and we do not listen to strangersI think that is the problem, you have been listening to the voices of to many strangers.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,09:42) NH No inference.
Answer the questions. Who was John referring to when he ascribed Zech 12:10 to Yeshua saying…
THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.
Hi w,
Indeed they will look on him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2007,21:07) If you use your logic to say that LORD, YHWH is meaning in this instance “An Agent”, then how do you know when to apply the Hebrew word LORD, YHWH to God?
Answer:
It is called context!
First you begin with the most obvious fact that the Messiah is NOT himself, GOD Almighty!
Rather Jesus of Nazareth is GOD's Son; a man made of a woman, begotten by the power of GOD his Father.Plus the Jewish law of agency, which is a biblical principle; explains how OT texts which speak of YHWH are fulfilled through Yeshua the Messiah.
Because Yeshua is GOD's ultimate Agent & Representative; therefore GOD will fulfill texts such as Zech 14; through His Son!
It is that simple! Check the context.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2007,09:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2007,09:42) NH No inference.
Answer the questions. Who was John referring to when he ascribed Zech 12:10 to Yeshua saying…
THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.
Hi w,
Indeed they will look on him.
NHYou cant answer can you?
Zech 12:10 YHWY says…
“that they will look on Me whom they have pierced”
Jn 19:37 says…
And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.Isaiahs questions…
Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.
Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.
Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?
NH. Do you have an answer?
Was John lieing or is this another one of those “oops, that is an error in the translations, it shouldnt even be there.”?
Kind of like John 1:1 and Matt 28:19 etc.
Hi W,
God is not a man and should not be made to be in man's image.
God does not have a body.
God is Spirit.
So how can we look at these verses with such truths in view?Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 24 2007,10:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2007,21:07) If you use your logic to say that LORD, YHWH is meaning in this instance “An Agent”, then how do you know when to apply the Hebrew word LORD, YHWH to God?
Answer:
It is called context!
First you begin with the most obvious fact that the Messiah is NOT himself, GOD Almighty!
Rather Jesus of Nazareth is GOD's Son; a man made of a woman, begotten by the power of GOD his Father.Plus the Jewish law of agency, which is a biblical principle; explains how OT texts which speak of YHWH are fulfilled through Yeshua the Messiah.
Because Yeshua is GOD's ultimate Agent & Representative; therefore GOD will fulfill texts such as Zech 14; through His Son!
It is that simple! Check the context.
APYou are right, it is context. The context in Zech 12 and 14 shows that YHWH speaks of himself.
“His feet” shall stand on the mount of olives”
“that they will “look on Me” whom they have pierced”
The law of agency is no more since YHWH has come in the flesh, for he now is the only agent to the Father.
We have one mediator between God and man the God/Man Jesus Christ.
Look at the context of these scriptures….
Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 and Heb 1:8 and Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; 2:20.
Interpret scripture with scriptures and you see Yeshau is the Lord/YHWH from heaven.
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