Trinity – t8's proof text #2

[Cult Buster]

No Nick. There are three.

1.Jehovah the Father.

Christ the Jehovah.

Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jehovah the Holy Spirit.

II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.  (NWT)
    (Even the Arian bible cannot hide the truth)

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You also cannot find one scripture that says God is three and yet you look down on honest searchers.
You too attempt to cobble together several scriptures to make one point,
That has nothing to do with finding scriptural truth.
Listen to the anointed teachers of God.
Do not mess with God's Word.
You mess with God.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

Says CultB who completely ignores the fact that Paul made a clear distinction between God and his son. Hello! I'll say it again, you CultB and also Is 1:18 and WorshippingJesus are conveniently ignoring the fact that 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 speaks of God and his son as two different persons/identities.

Yes t8.   God the Father and God the Son are two different Persons.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The above verse identifies the  existence of two of the three Persons within  the Godhead, thus blowing  Arian doctrine out of the water.

And here is the third Person.

II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.  (NWT)

(The Arian's own bible cannot hide the truth)

Did you count three, Nick and t8? Did you?       HELLO  

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
So you think you have identified a binity God.
Is that all?

You need three as one God in one verse.
Then we will search for support.
I do not hold out much hope.
Do you?

[Tim2]

Nick,

For all your claims to follow Sola Scriptura, your “all truth in one verse” requirement is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

News Flash Nick: the original writers didn't put the verses in! Verses weren't added until the fifteenth century. http://scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=383

But Nick, since you don't argue with the fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, I guess you're a trinitarian now.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Then just find one clear scriptural teaching that God is three and we will go from there.
Personally i think that what both Jesus and the OT stated that God is ONE has a more convincing ring to it.

[Proclaimer]

To WorshippingJesus .

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2007,12:27)

Paul also made a distintion between the Father and the Son here…

Correct.

And the same distinction with God and the son isn't it?

We know that the Father is God, so there is no contradiction and perfect harmony in the scriptures.

So are you now admitting that Paul made a distinction between God and the son?

Just in case the answer is no, I will use these scriptures to help you:

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

&

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

It's so easy that even a child can comprehend that there is one God, who has a son. Therein lies the problem however, not all accept the Kingdom of God like a child.

BTW: If we are Arians which I do not claim to be, then surely that makes you an Athanasian whom I assume you follow.

[Tim2]

t8,

Your translation of 1 Corinthians 15:27 supplies a few words that aren't in the Greek, namely, “God” and “Christ.” The Greek says:

“For all things He subjected under the feet of Him. But when He says that all things have been subjected, [it is] clear that [He is] excepted, the one having subjected to Him all things.”

So where you write, “God Himself,” it actually says “the one.”

But in any event, Trinitarians accept that God placed all things under Christ's feet. This is perfectly consistent with the Trinity. For the Son, who is God, became man and established the rule over creation that God intended man to exercise on His behalf.

Now you say that 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves that the Son is Lord but not God. But WJ has pointed out, and no one has responded to him, that this would mean that the Father is not Lord. But that's absurd. For Jesus calls the Father Lord in Matthew 11:25, and God is repeatedly called “Lord God” in Revelation. And of course, YHWH is transliterated as Lord in the New Testament. So Lord clearly means God. But Paul, a Trinitarian, distinguished between the Father and the Son, so to make himself clear he usually called the Father Theon and the Son Kyrios.

Nick,

Let's cut to the chase. “God is three” is not found in any of the ecumenical creeds. In fact, you'll find “not three” repeated 5 times in the Athanasian Creed, and a further denial of three is found in line 20. Saying “God is three” is an inference that Christians have made from the ecumenical creeds and the Bible. I am personally uncomfortable with it because the Bible always says “God is one,” but I think it's ok for Christians to say because they mean, “God exists in three persons.” Now this is not only a good inference from Scripture, it is the only possible inference from Scripture, because the Scripture testifies that three persons are God.

Now you don't know what to do with the fact that three persons are identified as God in the Scripture. Rather than accept it, you say, “Well, the Bible doesn't say God is three.” But you ignore the Bible saying that three are God. So rather than respond to this post by hyping the fact that the Bible doesn't explicitly say that God is three, why don't you respond to what I'm saying, and what the church is saying in the ecumenical creeds, that the Bible says that three are God.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
You say
“But in any event, Trinitarians accept that God placed all things under Christ's feet. This is perfectly consistent with the Trinity. For the Son, who is God, became man and established the rule over creation that God intended man to exercise on His behalf. “

Which God placed everything under Jesus' feet, the “committee God”, by consensus or our God, the Father?

” it is the only possible inference from Scripture, because the Scripture testifies that three persons are God. “

Scripture never states there are three persons in God. You have winkled out some verses that define by your standards that three are God. You have added from scripture that God is one. Then you have bound it all up by INFERENCE to cook up a trinity God. That is not a proper and sensible approach to the sacred deposit of truthgiven us by God. That is scriptural abuse.

INFERENCE is not sufficient to make doctrine from, dogmas that exclude all who are unconvinced it is true.

Retrace your steps as Christ never walked this way.

He loved scripture

[Cult Buster]

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Here are all the three Persons of the Godhead in one verse.
Now let's ascertain their deity.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Here is Christ (the Word) identified as God. This verse states that there are at least two who are God. This mucks up the Arian doctrine.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Here Christ is also identified as God. And since the Father is speaking, here is more conclusive proof of a Godhead with two of its three Persons mentioned. Another stumper for the Arian cause.

Evidence of Their Deity.

1.     The Father is Jehovah.      Not even the Arians will argue this.

2.      Christ is Jehovah.       See the above John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8. Also

Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit

II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.  (NWT)
  (From the Arian's own bible)

2 Timothy 4:3   For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;  
 4:4   And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.    

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
So if you cannot find any teaching about a trinity in the bible you find verses that may support the idea and put them together and hey presto you have sound teaching?

[Tim2]

Really? Jesus never made any inferences? So it wasn't an inference when He concluded that there would be a resurrection of the dead based on “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?” Granted that was a superb inference, but by your own standards it's still an inference.

For the Scripture is explicit that three are God, and God is one. And you've never refuted this. So I'll repeat it.

There is one God. Deuteronomy 4:35, etc.
The Father is God. John 17:3.
The Son is God. John 1:1
The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:4, 2 Corinthians 3:17

I've been trying to discuss this for the past week. Can we please do that now?

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Find a scripture that says what you believe and we can discuss it.
Finding three verses and manufacturing one “truth” out of them is not valid.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ April 21 2007,17:02)

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Come on CultB.

If a title like “The LORD our righteousness” actually makes one YHWH, then why not take it to it's logical conclusion and say that these names are also YHWH?

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

Come on CultB. If a title like “The LORD our righteousness” actually makes one YHWH, then why not take it to it's logical conclusion and say that these names are also YHWH?

Look again t8!

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

t8. If you don't believe that “THE LORD” is referring to Jehovah (Jesus) examine the Hebrew.

Jer 23:5  Behold,2009 the days3117 come,935 saith5002 the LORD3068  that I will raise6965 unto David1732 a righteous6662 Branch,6780 and a King4428 shall reign4427 and prosper,7919 and shall execute6213 judgment4941 and justice6666 in the earth.776
Jer 23:6  In his days3117 Judah3063 shall be saved,3467 and Israel3478 shall dwell7931 safely:983 and this2088 is his name8034 whereby834 he shall be called,7121 THE LORD3068 OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.6664

H3068
yeh-ho-vaw'
(the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: – Jehovah, the Lord.

Don't get upset at me t8. Check out the Hebrew for yourself. Jeremiah 23:5-6 is referring to Jesus as Jehovah.

Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

These verses are a stumper for the Arians.  

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Did you not know Christ is a vessel for God?
He is not the God but OUR Lord.
The Father is OUR God.

Become one of US united in Christ in God.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Our God is clear in His messages to us. He expects us to enter the kingdom as children. He does not give His teachings in confetti form. We do not have to gather up the pieces in baskets and find foundational doctrines in them. They are shown in Hebrews 6 and there is no trinity found there.

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Come out of her.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Cult Buster @ April 22 2007,12:14)

t8 Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. t8. If you don't believe that “THE LORD” is referring to Jehovah (Jesus) examine the Hebrew. Jer 23:5  Behold,2009 the days3117 come,935 saith5002 the LORD3068  that I will raise6965 unto David1732 a righteous6662 Branch,6780 and a King4428 shall reign4427 and prosper,7919 and shall execute6213 judgment4941 and justice6666 in the earth.776 Jer 23:6  In his days3117 Judah3063 shall be saved,3467 and Israel3478 shall dwell7931 safely:983 and this2088 is his name8034 whereby834 he shall be called,7121 THE LORD3068 OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.6664 H3068 yeh-ho-vaw' (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: – Jehovah, the Lord. Don't get upset at me t8. Check out the Hebrew for yourself. Jeremiah 23:5-6 is referring to Jesus as Jehovah. …

So using your logic, CB
The city of Jerusalem is Almighty GOD as well!!

(Jer 33:16)  In those days shall Judah be saved, Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

It is exactly the same identical Hebrew!! (Well at least the underlined portion!) Hmmm.

Hopefully you will then realize that just as Jeremiah is NOT identifying the city of Jerusalem as YAHWEH GOD Himself;
in like manner he is NOT identifying the Messiah, the human king of Israel as YAHWEH GOD Himself!

Remember CB, the Hebrew is identical.
Ask yourself, is the city of Jerusalem, Almighty GOD Himself??

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 23 2007,10:12)

Quote (Cult Buster @ April 22 2007,12:14) t8 Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. t8. If you don't believe that “THE LORD” is referring to Jehovah (Jesus) examine the Hebrew. Jer 23:5  Behold,2009 the days3117 come,935 saith5002 the LORD3068  that I will raise6965 unto David1732 a righteous6662 Branch,6780 and a King4428 shall reign4427 and prosper,7919 and shall execute6213 judgment4941 and justice6666 in the earth.776 Jer 23:6  In his days3117 Judah3063 shall be saved,3467 and Israel3478 shall dwell7931 safely:983 and this2088 is his name8034 whereby834 he shall be called,7121 THE LORD3068 OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.6664 H3068 yeh-ho-vaw' (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: – Jehovah, the Lord. Don't get upset at me t8. Check out the Hebrew for yourself. Jeremiah 23:5-6 is referring to Jesus as Jehovah. … So using your logic, CB The city of Jerusalem is Almighty GOD as well!! (Jer 33:16)  In those days shall Judah be saved, Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. It is exactly the same identical Hebrew!! (Well at least the underlined portion!) Hmmm. Hopefully you will then realize that just as Jeremiah is NOT identifying the city of Jerusalem as YAHWEH GOD Himself; in like manner he is NOT identifying the Messiah, the human king of Israel as YAHWEH GOD Himself! Remember CB, the Hebrew is identical. Ask yourself, is the city of Jerusalem, Almighty GOD Himself??

AP

Well then, according to your logic how can we be sure “Anytime” the word “LORD”, YHWH, is mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures it is refering to “YAHWEH GOD”?

I think CB makes an excellent point. Yeshua is also shown as “YHWH” in Zech 14 and many other passages in the Hebrew scriptures.

These scriptures also give the Arians trouble!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Not exactly.
You have to wrap your idea up in inference to make it say that.

[Author]

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