Trinity – t8's proof text #2

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,18:28)

To the Jews and God-fearing Gentiles of the day, there was only One God, and that God was the FATHER of Abraham. Being the good Jew that Thomas was, if he referred to Jesus as “God,” then he was calling him the God of Abraham!  He was calling him the Father. Wow, I can see how the oneness doctrine got started now…..

not3

And how is it that you think you know more about the God of Abraham than Jesus, John or Thomas?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:34)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,18:28) To the Jews and God-fearing Gentiles of the day, there was only One God, and that God was the FATHER of Abraham. Being the good Jew that Thomas was, if he referred to Jesus as “God,” then he was calling him the God of Abraham!  He was calling him the Father. Wow, I can see how the oneness doctrine got started now….. not3 And how is it that you think you know more about the God of Abraham than Jesus, John or Thomas?

What? Good grief, I don't know more than anyone else. I'm sharing my opinion and what I believe is true. Isn't that what you are doing as well?

Listen, it's confusing OK. You cannot have it both ways. Either you want Jesus to be God or you don't. To Thomas, “God” meant the Father. He was a Jew, and there are no records ANYWHERE of Jews believing that Jesus was God (meaning, the Father). If you know of such a record, please direct me to it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,18:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,18:28) To the Jews and God-fearing Gentiles of the day, there was only One God, and that God was the FATHER of Abraham. Being the good Jew that Thomas was, if he referred to Jesus as “God,” then he was calling him the God of Abraham!  He was calling him the Father. Wow, I can see how the oneness doctrine got started now….. not3 And how is it that you think you know more about the God of Abraham than Jesus, John or Thomas? What?  Good grief, I don't know more than anyone else.  I'm sharing my opinion and what I believe is true.  Isn't that what you are doing as well? Listen, it's confusing OK.  You cannot have it both ways.  Either you want Jesus to be God or you don't.  To Thomas, “God” meant the Father.  He was a Jew, and there are no records ANYWHERE of Jews believing that Jesus was God (meaning, the Father).  If you know of such a record, please direct me to it.

not3

You are reading the most trusted and sure record there is that Jews believed that Jesus is God and yet not the Father.

They believed Jesus is YHWH.

Did Thomas make a mistake?

Did Jesus or John correct him?

John a devout Jew wrote John 1:1 and this passage!

Others like Paul and Luke who wrote most of the NT claimed Jesus is God.

So when I said…

Quote

And how is it that you think you know more about the God of Abraham than Jesus, John or Thomas?

I am trying to say if you put your understanding above what is written or the testimony of the witnesses then you cast shadow on the most trusted record of God that we have.

Who will you believe not3?

The scriptures or your own understanding?

In Love!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,18:22) Hi W, Listen to Jesus teaching Thomas. Jn 14 ” 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NH The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he? Listen again… Jn 20: 28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…

“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?

Listen again…

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.

If I was one I would be stressed to.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,18:22) Hi W, Listen to Jesus teaching Thomas. Jn 14 ” 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NH The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he? Listen again… Jn 20: 28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

Hi w,
Read again
“Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves”
Jn 20
“17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “
Jn 8
” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: “
Still confused?

[Worshipping Jesus]

The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…

“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?

Listen again…

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.

If I was one I would be stressed to.

You say…

Quote

Still confused?

Your inference again NH!

Can't you just believe the scriptures for what they say?

You are saying Thomas is calling Jesus the “Father”…

*said unto him*, He didnt say “said unto them“!

You are the one confused!

Zech 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and Jesus told us when they saw him they saw the Father too, then why do you think Thomas would not have addressed Jesus, the vessel of God when he said this?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:54)

You are reading the most trusted and sure record there is that Jews believed that Jesus is God and yet not the Father.

WJ,
Humor me, just for a moment.

Because there is no other record in the Bible of a Jew believing anyone else but the Father is God….and because Thomas supposedly called Jesus God (which no one else did), can you for certain (100% sure), tell me that there is no other way to interpret what Thomas said?

[Cult Buster]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2007,13:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:54) You are reading the most trusted and sure record there is that Jews believed that Jesus is God and yet not the Father. WJ, Humor me, just for a moment. Because there is no other record in the Bible of a Jew believing anyone else but the Father is God….and because Thomas supposedly called Jesus God (which no one else did), can you for certain (100% sure), tell me that there is no other way to interpret what Thomas said?

Worshipping Jesus

Quote

The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he? Listen again… Jn 20: 28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God. This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians. If I was one I would be stressed to.

It is obvious that Thomas was speaking to Jesus when he exclaimed “My Lord and my God”

I'm glad that I'm not a Unitarian, Henotheist or Arian. It must be very stressful for them on this forum having to always put the twist on scripture.

Zec 7:11  But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.    

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“You are reading the most trusted and sure record there is that Jews believed that Jesus is God and yet not the Father.

They believed Jesus is YHWH.”

God is not multipartite.
God is one.

They knew that.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
“It is obvious that Thomas was speaking to Jesus when he exclaimed “My Lord and my God””
2Cor 5
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”

[Not3in1]

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 15 2007,22:04)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2007,13:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:54) You are reading the most trusted and sure record there is that Jews believed that Jesus is God and yet not the Father. WJ, Humor me, just for a moment. Because there is no other record in the Bible of a Jew believing anyone else but the Father is God….and because Thomas supposedly called Jesus God (which no one else did), can you for certain (100% sure), tell me that there is no other way to interpret what Thomas said? Worshipping Jesus Quote The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he? Listen again… Jn 20: 28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God. This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians. If I was one I would be stressed to. It is obvious that Thomas was speaking to Jesus when he exclaimed “My Lord and my God” I'm glad that I'm not a Unitarian, Henotheist or Arian. It must be very stressful for them on this forum having to always put the twist on scripture. Zec 7:11  But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

CB, if you will notice, it is WJ who needs to stress his points with different colored fonts and capital letters. We are simply asking reasonable questions.

The fact of the matter is – you weren't there when Thomas made the so-called claim of calling Jesus God. You cannot know for sure what he meant. Therefore I would think it quite stressful for you to make Thomas your poster child when you are not 100% certain what he claims.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Not3,
I think what WJ and CB are arguing here is that there are natural interpretations (i.e those supported by the grammar and context of the passage), and then there are those that are forced (i.e. made to conform to doctrinal axioms, in spite of the grammar and context). With regard to the John 20:28 declaration it's quite apparent from the grammar/context that Thomas was addressing Yeshua personally. That he was calling Him his God.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Only if you did not understand his teaching to Thomas in Jn 14.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 16 2007,11:14)

Hi Not3, I think what WJ and CB are arguing here is that there are natural interpretations (i.e those supported by the grammar and context of the passage), and then there are those that are forced (i.e. made to conform to doctrinal axioms, in spite of the grammar and context). With regard to the John 20:28 declaration it's quite apparent from the grammar/context that Thomas was addressing Yeshua personally. That he was calling Him his God.

Isaiah,

OK. Like I was saying to WJ – OK, so Thomas called Jesus God. Gotcha. But wait! Thomas was a good Jew. Jew's only believed that the Father was God. No Jew believed otherwise!!

So if Thomas was calling Jesus God – then he was calling Jesus the Father.

God=Father

“My Lord, and my Father!”

No? Why?

All WJ could do was use different colors and bold and cap his text – saying the same thing over and over again. Do you have a different answer to my sincere question?

[Anonymous]

Not3in1

Quote

OK.  Like I was saying to WJ – OK, so Thomas called Jesus God.  Gotcha.  But wait!  Thomas was a good Jew.  Jew's only believed that the Father was God.  No Jew believed otherwise!!

How do you know? That's not what the Bible says.

Mar 14:61  But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63  Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64  Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Even the Jews understood that the Christ, the Son of the Blessed was God, that is why they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of the Blessed, whom the Jews understood to be God. The high priest accused Jesus of blasphemy, because He claimed to be the Christ, the Son of the Blessed.  When a man claims to be God it is blasphemy (John 10:33).

Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus could have said to the high priest, “I wasn't blaspheming, you misunderstood me, I am not claiming to be God.” But He didn't correct the high priest because Jesus was in fact asserting His deity.

Jesus was accused many times of blasphemy, of making Himself God, but never once did He try to change their perception of Him claiming deity. Jesus was and is the self existent and eternal Jehovah God.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[Anonymous]

not3in1

Quote

Listen, it's confusing OK.  You cannot have it both ways.  Either you want Jesus to be God or you don't.  To Thomas, “God” meant the Father.  He was a Jew, and there are no records ANYWHERE of Jews believing that Jesus was God (meaning, the Father).  If you know of such a record, please direct me to it.

Hello not3in1. Where in the bible does it say that Thomas believed that God meant the Father?Apostle John believed that Jesus is God. Of course he didn't believe that Jesus was the Father. He just believed that Jesus is God.John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John was a Jew, and he believed that Jesus was God.What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,06:25)

Hi W, If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and Jesus told us when they saw him they saw the Father too, then why do you think Thomas would not have addressed Jesus, the vessel of God when he said this?

Hello Nick. If Jesus was just a vessel,don.t you think that Jesus would have rebuked Thomas for taking God's name in vain? If you were just a vessel for God's representation,would you feel comfortable if someone called you “my Lord and my God'? Did the disciple really see the Father physically or did they see the Father's character represented by Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
“Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus could have said to the high priest, “I wasn't blaspheming, you misunderstood me, I am not claiming to be God.” But He didn't correct the high priest because Jesus was in fact asserting His deity.

Jesus was accused many times of blasphemy, of making Himself God, but never once did He try to change their perception of Him claiming deity. Jesus was and is the self existent and eternal Jehovah God.”

You forget that in the same chapter, in the same context he did correct them.
He told them he was rather the SON of God.

Jn 10
” 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? “

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 16 2007,23:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,06:25) Hi W, If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and Jesus told us when they saw him they saw the Father too, then why do you think Thomas would not have addressed Jesus, the vessel of God when he said this? Hello Nick. If Jesus was just a vessel,don.t you think that Jesus would have rebuked Thomas for taking God's name in vain? If you were just a vessel for God's representation,would you feel comfortable if someone called you “my Lord and my God'? Did the disciple really see the Father physically or did they see the Father's character represented by Jesus?

Hi G,
What is to correct?
He had taught Thomas the truth.
Thomas had listened as you should too.
Jn 14

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

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