Trinity &#8211; t8&#039;s proof text #2

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 23 2007,09:10)

Quote

If you think the God in this verse is Jesus, then Stephen ignored the Father completely.

I know you don't believe that, t8, for whoever sees Jesus sees the Father, and the Father and Jesus are one, etc.

And don't forget Tim2, that we can also be one with God and God can be in us. We can also partake of divine nature.

So are we God, if we are seated at the right hand of Christ who is at the right hand of God? After all, we can be one with God too.

I think I have made it clear that the attributes/postion/priviledge you speak of that makes Christ God to you, also refer to us (believers/followers of Christ).

So your argument doesn't hold water does it?

God, Christ, and us can be one and we know for sure that we are not God, so how can that same understanding make Christ, God? It cannot. It is not the wisdom from above.

Here is what is written regarding being one with God. You will notice that it includes those who belong to God too.

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Can you accept this?

May 22, 2007 at 5:25 pm#52874

Not3in1

Participant

See also the literal translation. (LITV)
*************
Thanks, CB, I'll check this one out too!

May 22, 2007 at 7:30 pm#52889

Tim2

Participant

Hi t8,

My point was that praying to Jesus alone doesn't exclude the Father, and I don't see how you can say that it does.

Quote

I think I have made it clear that the attributes/postion/priviledge you speak of that makes Christ God to you, also refer to us (believers/followers of Christ).

Your evidence is:

Quote

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

First of all, the attributes of Christ that believers do not possess have been listed many times on this website. He is Theos, Lord, Savior, Rock, First and Last, the image of God, the Wisdom and Power of God, the Radiance of God, the Word of God, the only begotten Son of God, the exact representation of His person, the Truth, the Life, the true Light, the true God, the Lord of Glory, Lord of all, the Christ over all, the Author of Life, our Lord and our God, He had glory with the Father before the world was, He sanctifies Himself, He sends the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit receives of Him, He is before all things, all things were made through Him and for Him, and all things are through Him. (To name just a few.) None of these “attributes/position/privileges” of Jesus are given to the church. I can't believe that these glorious praises would be given to anyone other than YHWH Himself.

Quote

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Note that it doesn't directly say, “You are in the Father,” but that Jesus is the link, as He is everywhere in the Bible. Now if we are united to God through Christ, in the course of time, that is clear proof that we are not God, for we have to be taken from our natural state, outside of God, and be united to Him through the Son. But if the Son has always been one with the Father, from all eternity, that is clear proof that the Son is God, for what creature can be one with God, when even the seraphim shield their face from Him (Isaiah 6:2)? But I know you don't believe the Son is a creature, but rather that He is of the substance of the Father, just inferior to Him, which I would like you to explain, whenever you can.

Quote

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Again, the first thing to note is that the Father and the Son are one eternally, whereas believers have to be united to Them through the work of the Son; which shows that the Son is of the nature of the Father, but believers are not, and can only have union with the Father through the One who is of the Father's nature, the Son. This much I know you agree with from your website, but you still say the Son is inferior to the Father, although they are of the same substance, and I would like you please to explain how this can be.

Tim

May 22, 2007 at 10:16 pm#52898

Participant

Hi Tim2,
You say
'First of all, the attributes of Christ that believers do not possess have been listed many times on this website. He is Theos, Lord, Savior, Rock, First and Last, the image of God, the Wisdom and Power of God, the Radiance of God, the Word of God, the only begotten Son of God, the exact representation of His person, the Truth, the Life, the true Light, the true God, the Lord of Glory, Lord of all, the Christ over all, the Author of Life, our Lord and our God, He had glory with the Father before the world was, He sanctifies Himself, He sends the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit receives of Him, He is before all things, all things were made through Him and for Him, and all things are through Him. (To name just a few.) None of these “attributes/position/privileges” of Jesus are given to the church.”

Then you lapse into human LOGIC and ADD

' I can't believe that these glorious praises would be given to anyone other than YHWH Himself.”

By whose authority can you make the Son the same as the Father?

May 22, 2007 at 11:15 pm#52901

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 24 2007,02:30)

Hi t8,

My point was that praying to Jesus alone doesn't exclude the Father, and I don't see how you can say that it does.

Hi Tim2.

I didn't say that it did.

I said that if Jesus is one with God, then that shouldn't be taken to mean that he is God. A man can be one with his wife, but that doesn't make the man the wife. In fact saying that you are one with another is an admission that there is more than one person/identity.

Being one means unity, it doesn't mean unit.

In addition to this fact, Stephen called upon God and then spoke to Jesus who was at the right hand of God.

It is not complicated and we don't need the Trinity doctrine to understand this. It is straightforward. Stephen called upon God and spoke to Christ who was at his right hand side.

That is what is written.

No need to put on Trinity glasses for this one either.

May 23, 2007 at 12:46 am#52908

Tim2

Participant

Hi t8,

Quote

Stephen called upon God and then spoke to Jesus who was at the right hand of God.

Well, I don't see “He called on God and then Jesus” anywhere in the text; but everyone can see that just by reading it. I'd rather discuss the other stuff we've brought up, if you're willing?

Quote

Well this supports the Trinity, except for the denial that Jesus is God. You say more there is more than one person in marriage, and you are right, just as there is more than one person in the Godhead! Marriage is the image of the Trinity: multiple persons and one flesh, just as God is multiple persons and one Divine substance. You may say there are only two persons in one marriage, but we all know that when man and woman become one flesh, there proceeds a third person from their love.

Would you like to respond to the rest of what I wrote above, please?

Tim

May 23, 2007 at 1:42 am#52914

Participant

Hi Tim2,
Speaking of offensive doctrine the comparison of Father and Son producing a Spirit comes close.

May 23, 2007 at 6:31 am#52951

Participant

Is 1:18

How True. Just shows the arrogance and the fallacy of the Arian followers and to what extreme they will go to reject the Deity of our Lord and God.

I wonder how they even got saved apart from praying to Jesus.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that *whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved*.

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that *by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth*, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 *This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.*
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for *there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved*.

1 Cor 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all * in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lordboth theirs and ours*

Its quite amazing how that the Apostles went everywhere preaching Jesus who was crucified and risen from the dead, how they could not have mentioned once “Father”, or given us an example of someone getting saved by praying to the Father in Jesus name, or by performing a miracle or any work by praying to the Father in Jesus name?

So we are to assume according to the unbelievers that they didn’t pray? I think not.

Tell me unbelievers how Jesus was preached, and his resurrection, and that he was alive, that men would not call out to the one who is being preached?

Now If Jesus was still dead. Yep, we shouldn’t pray to him.

But “No Man” can be saved apart from calling on the name of Jesus!!! You sugarcoat it if you want, but “Calling on Jesus” is prayer.

Men claim to follow Jesus but do not even obey the Fathers commands…

Jn 5:
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Honour Greek “timao”, which means

1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate

How can you “revere”, “venerate”, fix value upon. Or highly esteem, or call him your Lord and Master, and not speak to him?

Is he just an image in your head. Or is he a real person who according to 2 Cor 13:15 who lives inside of you…

2 Cor 13:15
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates*?

How can you develop an intimate relationship with the one who is supposed to be your husband, and you his bride?

2 Cor 11:
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have *espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ*.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as *the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ*.
4 For if he that cometh *preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted*, ye might well bear with him.

Have you since Christ came into you life, become reprobate?
Have you received another Jesus?
Have you received another Spirit?

The simplicity of the Gospel is “Christ” in us the hope of Glory! He is our husband. We are espoused to him. We are his body. His bride.

Do you “Dishonour” your husband by not speaking to him?

Does he call your name and you not respond to him?

Does he give you direction and help and wisdom and Love and encouragement and strength and truth and hope and healing and prosperity, and you do not “thank him”?

You cannot go to the Father nor have a relationship with the Father apart from the Son.

He that hath the Son hath the Father.

Hear the word of the Father O ye unbelievers…

Jn 6:37
All that the *Father giveth me shall come to me*; and him that *cometh to me I will in no wise cast out*.

Tell me if the Father means we are to come to the Son and not talk nor pray to him?

Is this what you believe the Father means?

Jn 6:
44 *No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him*: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me*.

Surely, you don’t mean we are to come to our Lord and Savior and sit at his feet to be taught of him, and yet not speak to him. The Father draws us to Jesus, can you see that?

Is this what the Arianistic teaching would have us believe?

Jn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that *no man can come unto me*, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, *If a man love me, he will keep my words*: and my Father will love him, and *we will come unto him, and make our abode with him*.

Jesus said…
Matt 11:
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 *Come unto me*, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and *I will give you rest*.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and *learn of me*; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Tell me O Arians, why did not Jesus in context of the verses, say go to the Father in my name, all ye that…?

Those of you who do not talk to the one who the Father says you are to go to. How do you explain this?

Truly our fellowship is with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…

1 Jn 1:3
*That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship (koinonia) with us: and truly our fellowship (koinonia) is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ*.

koinonia Greek; which means…

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
a) the share which one has in anything, participation
b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

Do you see anything in this verse that makes fellowshipping with the Father any different than with the Son?

Or in the following verse speaking of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

2 Cor 13:14
*The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion (koinonia) of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen*

How do you have this kind of fellowship without prayer?

May 23, 2007 at 6:36 am#52956

Participant

Hi w,
You say
“How can you develop an intimate relationship with the one who is supposed to be your husband, and you his bride”
Then you say
“How do you have this kind of fellowship without prayer?”
Do brides pray to their husbands?

May 23, 2007 at 6:39 am#52958

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2007,18:36)

You are lying to yourself if you believe that talking to Jesus who is unseen is not prayer!

May 23, 2007 at 7:06 am#52959

Participant

Hi W,
Is that prayer -according to the teaching of Jesus?

May 23, 2007 at 8:12 am#52962

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,13:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2007,18:36)

You are lying to yourself if you believe that talking to Jesus who is unseen is not prayer!

On this issue I would like to say that many people when they saw Christ spoke to him. If that is called prayer, then I guess the disciples prayed to him every time they spoke to him.

Stephen saw Christ. If I saw Christ, I would probably say something too. I personally wouldn't consider that prayer. It would be direct communication or conversation. The same kind of thing I do everyday with many people.

I don't think we need to caught up in whether this is how God taught us to pray, it obviously isn't. Stephen spoke to Christ from what I can see. I don't think it is anymore complicated than the text describes.

That is my humble opinion anyway.

May 23, 2007 at 8:19 am#52963

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ May 22 2007,19:31)

Arianism is blasphemous. Repent!

Which is worse. Arianism or Athanasiusism?

I don't hold to either, but you come across as a follower of Athanasius.

Maybe you need to repent Cult B?

What do you think?

May 23, 2007 at 10:14 am#52967

Cult Buster

Participant

Nick

Quote

Hi Cb,
Is that what you call prayer and worship?

Nick. If the following scripture is not describing worship, then what is worship?

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus.

Look again!

From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.

See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)

Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.

Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:

Jesus is Yahweh God

May 23, 2007 at 10:26 am#52970

Participant

Quote

Jesus is Yahweh God

CultB, you didn't give a book and verse number. So I couldn't find that one.

May 23, 2007 at 3:32 pm#52983

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2007,19:06)

Hi W,
Is that prayer -according to the teaching of Jesus?

Then you give me the definition of prayer!

Tell me what is the difference in “talking to”, the Father and “praying to” the Father?

Please elaborate!

May 23, 2007 at 4:25 pm#52984

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ May 23 2007,07:30)

Hi t8,

My point was that praying to Jesus alone doesn't exclude the Father, and I don't see how you can say that it does.

Quote

I think I have made it clear that the attributes/postion/priviledge you speak of that makes Christ God to you, also refer to us (believers/followers of Christ).

Your evidence is:

Quote

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Quote

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Quote

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Tim

Excellent points!

May 23, 2007 at 4:29 pm#52985

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:30)

Quote (t8 @ May 20 2007,20:19)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:03)

For me it's more straight forward than that. I talk to Him.

Hi Is 1:18.

Don't forget the others too.

When Trinitarians pray to YHWH, they pray to a HIM and yet can talk to three persons.

The ironic thing here is that they should pray to THEM if they wish to be grammatically correct. Otherwise I can only conclude that they pray to the one substance, which seems rather odd don't you think?

Surely, when we talk to a person (human), we talk to them and not their substance or nature. So if we talk to God, should we talk to his substance? If not, then I think you should at least refer to the Trinity as THEM, because they are after all 3 so-called persons.

That would to me be more honest, than praying to 3 and addressing them as 1 which seems designed to appeal to the language found in scripture about God being one and God being a HIM.

It actually comes across as deceptive to me. God is triune, but we will address him as HIM so that we are not accused of polytheism.

The only excuse I can see for calling God HIM from a Trinitarian perspective is that they address the substance. But that seems very odd as I said before and it also seems to border on New Age philosophy in that God is a substance or energy.

T8,
No body prays to a substance. Kindly cease and desist from constantly using the straw man fallacy. It's childish and impresses no one. Be a grown up t8.

Is 1:18

Amen.

Foolish logic of an Arian.

Definition of Arian… “one who does not believes Jesus is God in the flesh.

May 23, 2007 at 4:50 pm#52986

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ May 21 2007,02:53)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:11)

Not3,
There is a bigger picture to consider here. Yeshua wants a relationship with substance.

Matthew 7:21-23
21″Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22″Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23″And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I hope you will reconsider your stance on prayer to Yeshua. I'm sure He wants to hear from you.

Jesus said He would deny those who work lawlessness. You did read that right IS.

The ony thing I know is that Jesus said to pray to the our Father who is in heaven.
If you pray to Jesus then you are NOT doing the will of the Father praying to the Son.

Where in God's word does it say to pray to the SON?

OH! That's one of the Harlot's ideas :laugh:

Sorry it just amazes me how you can use the very scripture that points to your error. The deception of the Harlot!

I know I have read the bible for years then the same scripture all of a sudden opens my eyes as I read it again for the first time.

I know you are sincere IS. God bless you!

IHN&L,

Ken

You say…

Quote

Where in God's word does it say to pray to the SON?

1 Cor 1:2 KJV
*Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:*

NIV
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ–their Lord and ours:

NASB
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Paul says those who are “sanctified” and called to be saints call on Jesus.

I would assume that those who are “not sanctified” and called do not call on Jesus!

May 23, 2007 at 4:53 pm#52987