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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:03) For me it's more straight forward than that. I talk to Him.
Hi Is 1:18.Don't forget the others too.
When Trinitarians pray to YHWH, they pray to a HIM and yet can talk to three persons.
The ironic thing here is that they should pray to THEM if they wish to be grammatically correct. Otherwise I can only conclude that they pray to the one substance, which seems rather odd don't you think?
Surely, when we talk to a person (human), we talk to them and not their substance or nature. So if we talk to God, should we talk to his substance? If not, then I think you should at least refer to the Trinity as THEM, because they are after all 3 so-called persons.
That would to me be more honest, than praying to 3 and addressing them as 1 which seems designed to appeal to the language found in scripture about God being one and God being a HIM.
It actually comes across as deceptive to me. God is triune, but we will address him as HIM so that we are not accused of polytheism.
The only excuse I can see for calling God HIM from a Trinitarian perspective is that they address the substance. But that seems very odd as I said before and it also seems to border on New Age philosophy in that God is a substance or energy.
Quote (t8 @ May 20 2007,20:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:03) For me it's more straight forward than that. I talk to Him.
Hi Is 1:18.Don't forget the others too.
When Trinitarians pray to YHWH, they pray to a HIM and yet can talk to three persons.
The ironic thing here is that they should pray to THEM if they wish to be grammatically correct. Otherwise I can only conclude that they pray to the one substance, which seems rather odd don't you think?
Surely, when we talk to a person (human), we talk to them and not their substance or nature. So if we talk to God, should we talk to his substance? If not, then I think you should at least refer to the Trinity as THEM, because they are after all 3 so-called persons.
That would to me be more honest, than praying to 3 and addressing them as 1 which seems designed to appeal to the language found in scripture about God being one and God being a HIM.
It actually comes across as deceptive to me. God is triune, but we will address him as HIM so that we are not accused of polytheism.
The only excuse I can see for calling God HIM from a Trinitarian perspective is that they address the substance. But that seems very odd as I said before and it also seems to border on New Age philosophy in that God is a substance or energy.
T8,
No body prays to a substance. Kindly cease and desist from constantly using the straw man fallacy. It's childish and impresses no one. Be a grown up t8.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:16) Yes. But what was the point you were trying to make when you wrote: Quote “You highlight a difference between Christ and His Father.
While of God it is said that he is not far from anyone [ Acts 17] Christ is only manifest in his branches.
He only mediates for US.”and how does it relate to:
Quote The body of Christ is the manifestation of Christ on earth.
Few are in the body of Christ.
and;Quote There are two and the angels in heaven?
Father and Son.
Great.
Hi Is 1.18,
God is in heaven, and yet manifest here as His Spirit, close to everyone.[Acts 17]
Christ is in heaven as the head of the body and the rest of his body is on earth made up of many human parts-sons and daughters of God. He is manifest here as the Spirit of Christ, given of God, in that body. Christ is only manifest on earth in that body and when two or three are gathered together in his name indeed he is among them.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:30) T8,
No body prays to a substance. Kindly cease and desist from constantly using the straw man fallacy. It's childish and impresses no one. Be a grown up t8.
Thank you Is. This then brings me to this.It is grammatically incorrect when praying to a Trinitarian God to refer to the 3 persons as HIM, rather it should be THEY.
No one refers to a married couple for example as HIM do they? And yet they are one flesh. So if God is one substance and three persons, why is God called HIM in scripture?
The answer is simple. You can't call the Trinity, HIM. The Trinity Doctrine is not true and scripture is correct when it says that God is one God. Paul also says “for us there is one God the Father. If we accept that, we can call God, HIM.
As you and anyone else can plainly see, (if you are willing to), God is the Father. HE is the God of the Lord Jesus Christ. HE is quite accurately a HIM.
You see God is a HIM and Jesus is a HIM too. Now we have 2 HIMS. If you say they are both the Most High God, then you are a Polytheist even if you don't realise it, because you now have 2 who are the Most High. Funny how your own accusations come back to you.
God being a HIM doesn't make sense with the teaching you bring here. Your teaching is false Is.
BTW: I am not trying to impress anyone. I am simply testing your teaching in the fire and it just burnt to stubble. Your teaching has burned down before with other tests, but you couldn't see it (or admit it) because you are convinced in your own mind that you are right on this one.
As it is written: they have eyes but cannot see and ears but cannot hear.
We should all be very careful with our doctrine and if we harden our heart, then God cannot graciously shape us anymore.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:11) Not3,
There is a bigger picture to consider here. Yeshua wants a relationship with substance.Matthew 7:21-23
21″Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22″Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23″And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'I hope you will reconsider your stance on prayer to Yeshua. I'm sure He wants to hear from you.
Jesus said He would deny those who work lawlessness. You did read that right IS.The ony thing I know is that Jesus said to pray to the our Father who is in heaven.
If you pray to Jesus then you are NOT doing the will of the Father praying to the Son.Where in God's word does it say to pray to the SON?
OH! That's one of the Harlot's ideas
Sorry it just amazes me how you can use the very scripture that points to your error. The deception of the Harlot!
I know I have read the bible for years then the same scripture all of a sudden opens my eyes as I read it again for the first time.
I know you are sincere IS. God bless you!
IHN&L,
Ken
It seems that Stephen prayed to Jesus.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Quote (Cult Buster @ May 21 2007,03:09) It seems that Stephen prayed to Jesus. Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Hi CB,
Is this your concept of prayer?
Is it a scriptural concept of prayer?
It seems to bear little resemblance to how Jesus told us to pray.
Mt6
” 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: “
Isaiah writes:
Matthew 7:21-23
21″Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22″Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23″And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'I hope you will reconsider your stance on prayer to Yeshua. I'm sure He wants to hear from you
************************************Hi Isaiah, it's interesting that you would use this passage of scripture to encourage me to pray to Jesus. The reason I find it interesting is to me, it sounds like Jesus is talking to those who DO pray to him saying, “Lord, Lord….” and then Jesus goes on to tell them that just calling on me and doing these works will not save you; indeed, based on these things doesn't guarentee that I will know you. But then Jesus goes on to talk about those whom he finds approved —— those who do the will of the Father. I believe that I try to do just that with all of my heart. God knows our hearts. And I thank you for your concern for me. But my relationship with Jesus is a tight one. He guides me daily, and I count on him to show me the way to the Father.
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 21 2007,22:09) It seems that Stephen prayed to Jesus. Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
CultB.If you loved the truth, you would have seen that Jesus was at the right hand of God. Instead of admitting that, you continue to ignore simple things like this, and push the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. In other words:
Ignore everything except anything that can be twisted toward the Trinity doctrine.
This is but 1 example of what you have consistently done when you come here.
The truth is (for the benefit of those who have ears) is that Stephen called upon God, obviously in the name of Jesus. Of course Jesus is the mediator between God and man, so when we pray to God it goes via our intercessor and high priest, Christ. Of course it must also be mentioned that Stephen saw Christ, and if it were me, I would probably call out to him too. But it wouldn't be an admission that he was God, rather God's anointed.
This text cannot be used to prove a Trinity. It can only be twisted that way.
Conclusion:
CultB you cannot admit something as simple as Jesus being at the right hand of God. You are so full of the Trinity doctrine (wisdom of men) that no matter what you read, the Trinity doctrine comes out.Of course that is exactly what you see in any cult. Twisted meanings to prove a doctrine of man and/or devil.
CultB, you continue to promote the biggest cult of all. The Catholic faith as described by the Roman Catholics. For proof, you can read their creed.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance…
More…t8. Open your eyes. Stephen was praying directly to Jesus.
Look again. This time with your eyes open!Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Stephen kneeled down (not fell down) and prayed directly to Jesus.
Arianism is blasphemous. Repent!
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
The right hand of power is metaphor meaning that all authority belongs to Christ. That is all authority. Can you imagine the Godhead relinquishing all their authority to a created being? Of course not! Look what happened to Lucifer.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus is Yahweh God!
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Can you imagine the Godhead relinquishing all their authority to a created being? Of course not! Look what happened to Lucifer.
**************
Lucifer was not the only begotten of God.Also, the authority that the Father has given to his beloved Son will be given back to the Father by the Son in the end. Why? So that the Father can be all in all. Why would Jesus, being the “second person” of God, give back authority to the “first person” of God? Seems a little ridiculous to me.
CB, my bible reads a little different then yours:
Acts 7:59, 60 ESV
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And FALLING to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not……”*So other versions do not have Stephen calling out to God and then addressing Jesus.
*Other versions show that Stephen did fall down to his knees.Just when you think that something is only written the way you want it to be, along come other interpretations of the very same scriptures that either prove the opposite or are neutral.
You have to wonder why Stephen “called out” (not prayer) to Jesus in the first place? Do you think it was because he had just seen the vision of Jesus in heaven? Maybe he thought he was seeing something in *real time* and thought Jesus could hear him way up there?
Hi not3
Acts 7.59 YLT
59and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'60and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
My bible shows that”calling on the lord” was added by translators for coherency.
Youngs literal gives the true understanding of the Textus Receptus.YLT – I don't have that one! Sounds like a good version to have around. I'll see if I can't find one today! Thanks
Hi not3,
It is on this site.
RUQ top of page go to heaven net, then BIBLE LOOKUP-it is one of the options. It is based on the same manuscripts as the KJV so only gives a more accurate view of their meanings.Right on! You just saved me $35! I didn't realize that this site had so many tools. I better have a look around…..
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 22 2007,19:31) t8. Open your eyes. Stephen was praying directly to Jesus.
Look again. This time with your eyes open!
CultB.What you are really saying is “Look again. This time with your Trinity glasses on, like me”.
The fact is, Jesus is at the right hand of God. You haven't admitted this yet. He also see Jesus. He calls upon God and speaks to Christ too.
It is not hard to see that is what the verse is saying in English.
Of course whether the translation is correct is another point. But as it stand in English, he called out to God and spoke to Christ too.
If you think the God in this verse is Jesus, then Stephen ignored the Father completely.
Quote If you think the God in this verse is Jesus, then Stephen ignored the Father completely. I know you don't believe that, t8, for whoever sees Jesus sees the Father, and the Father and Jesus are one, etc.
See also the literal translation. (LITV)
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God:
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