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Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,16:57) WJ wrote: Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?
***********************The Father and his Son have (each) their own spirits; that is, WHO they are. Just like you have a spirit, and I have a spirit.
The Father's spirit is “the Holy Spirit of God,” which is talked about in scriptures. It is the spirit that fills us, and by whom we live and have our being. When we speak of the One Spirit – this is the spirit of which we speak.
The Son's spirit is “the spirit of Christ,” which is given to us by the Father when he “qualified” us to share in the inheritence of his son. God says this:
Col. 1:12, 13
“…..giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of th Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
How are we “qualified” to share in the kingdom of his Son?
Gal 4:4-7 in part
“But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a women…under law….to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” SO YOU ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE, but a son……”We are “qualified” by God to be a son (and not a slave), BECAUSE God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts. God did not send us “another” spirit other than his own. Oh! What did I just say? It sounds lke I'm contradicting myself. But, wait. Hear me out. What “spirit” did Jesus have “in” him? Answer: God's Holy spirit. What spirit of Jesus annointed with? Answer: God's Holy Spirit. For me, that does not mean the third person of God. It means the Father only – just for clarification there.
So if Jesus had God's Holy spirit inside of him, that is the spirit that I have inside of me. Jesus was sharing the spirit of SONSHIP with us. Not actually another “spirit.” Does this make sense? I believe that is what the verses in Galations are trying to show us.
Not3in1No. I am still confused. It dosnt make sense.
If you say that Jesus has a Spirit and God has a Spirit then that is 2 Spirits. So if the Spirit of the Son is in you or as the scriptures say Jesus is in you and yet you say Gods Spirit is in you then that means you have both Jesus Spirit and Gods Spirit in you.
So is this what you mean?
Does Jesus live in you and does God live in you?
Please explain these verses…
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
By asking you this question, it may help me answer you better:
Do you believe that God has a spirit, and Jesus has a different spirit? Or do they SHARE the One spirit?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,22:22) By asking you this question, it may help me answer you better: Do you believe that God has a spirit, and Jesus has a different spirit? Or do they SHARE the One spirit?
Not3in1I am not shure how me answering your question will help you answer mine but, I have said many times…
God is Spirit. There is One Spirit, Three persons, One God.
This is scriptural.
Jesus spoke of the three…
Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:One Name, Three persons, all with the definate article.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,16:57) WJ wrote: Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?
***********************The Father and his Son have (each) their own spirits; that is, WHO they are. Just like you have a spirit, and I have a spirit.
The Father's spirit is “the Holy Spirit of God,” which is talked about in scriptures. It is the spirit that fills us, and by whom we live and have our being. When we speak of the One Spirit – this is the spirit of which we speak.
The Son's spirit is “the spirit of Christ,” which is given to us by the Father when he “qualified” us to share in the inheritence of his son. God says this:
Col. 1:12, 13
“…..giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of th Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
How are we “qualified” to share in the kingdom of his Son?
Gal 4:4-7 in part
“But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a women…under law….to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” SO YOU ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE, but a son……”We are “qualified” by God to be a son (and not a slave), BECAUSE God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts. God did not send us “another” spirit other than his own. Oh! What did I just say? It sounds lke I'm contradicting myself. But, wait. Hear me out. What “spirit” did Jesus have “in” him? Answer: God's Holy spirit. What spirit of Jesus annointed with? Answer: God's Holy Spirit. For me, that does not mean the third person of God. It means the Father only – just for clarification there.
So if Jesus had God's Holy spirit inside of him, that is the spirit that I have inside of me. Jesus was sharing the spirit of SONSHIP with us. Not actually another “spirit.” Does this make sense? I believe that is what the verses in Galations are trying to show us.
Hi Not3in1Either you made perfect sense to me there or our minds are thinking alike. And I would like to say the same to Tim as well.
However, though, the scripture John 1:1 throws this concept out of proportion. I must read some more into this.
But first I must mention. Last night I explained to the elders of SDA my feelings about the Trinity. Although they explained their understanding of it I had to let them know that is the same understanding I have. So I explained them what some Trinitarians believe the Trinity means… that 1) God came down to be Jesus. Or 2) that God separated a portion of himself to come down and become Jesus. They disagreed with both notions but still agree with the Trinity. So, obviously there are heaps of ways in seeing this trinity LOL. Anyway, the subject got changed. And when this happens it tells me they dont want to discuss the matter anymore. Fair enough.
We are studying the book of Mark at the moment and we were up to Chapter 10 last night. And we came across the verse…18″Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I just sat there and kept my mouth shut and waited to see if anyone in the group wouldnt mention anything about that. But no one did! So, yeah… as much as i love these people the Trinity is the only thing that separates me from them. And that is exactly how i felt last night.
Another story i was told by a woman (whom isnt an SDA) and she was explaining to me about the Trinity, was that there was a bee in her house and she didnt want to kill it but try and shoo it out the window or door. She said that whatever she did was not working and at that instance she thought to herself…'if only I could become a bee to be able to guide it out the door'. I have read another story pretty much similar to this before as well.
So can you imagine how my head feels? LOL. No wonder it is screaming WTF?
But…my heart just wont let me accept the Trinity. And I dont understand why other peoples hearts dont feel the same. Which is why i wanted to discuss this with the elders to find out if their hearts had the same. One of them said that she had a hard time understanding it herself when she was younger. But now she understands. She is in her 60's now I think and she was raised with the church. So… maybe they all had doubts in their hearts years ago but maybe years of constantly being told there is a Trinity (brainwashing?) has now been set in their minds.
I dont know. I dont want to speculate or accuse. They really are wonderful people. Just a shame that one little separation comes between us.
And I have waffled on enough
Hugs
PhoenixEdit: I forgot to mention too that the elders pointed out the John 1:1 scripture to me. So yeah, as usual i was a bit lost for words.
Thanks for sharing your heart P,
Once you are entangled by trinity as I was it seems it has some clinging tentacles around your feet and legs. Your mindset is trained to use it as a basis of everything so changing that mindset seems to challenge everything else of faith.Actually, you didn't answer my question. But I understand why you cannot. These two questions, asked side-by-side, force you to look at Jesus as a seperate person from God, and that you cannot do, and still be a Trinitarian. If God has a spirit, and Jesus has a spirit, that makes “them” two individuals (not One God). Do you see?
If not, then it is impossible for me to explain to you any further than I already have what I believe about the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of God. It seems to be clear to others, so I apologize that it has not been made clear to you. I doubt that either one of us will abandoned our faith, but there is always hope that one of us may be able to explain something to the other one and clarify a topic. That is what I was hoping would happen. But, at last we have come to this again. You cannot see my belief, and I cannot see yours. We both tried, didn't we?
Phoenix – hang in there, sister! It was hard for me, too, when I denounced the so-called triune God. But remember that Jesus told us we would be persecuted. We would be hated. All because he was hated first. We are in Christ, and so we can go directly to the Father and ask for wisdom, and comfort.
What is an “SDA?”
Hi Not3in1
Seventh Day Adventist *looks at Nick*
Just a quick note too Not.. im am still going to get this editting thing done for you. Just havent got around to it yet.
Hugs
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,23:15) Actually, you didn't answer my question. But I understand why you cannot. These two questions, asked side-by-side, force you to look at Jesus as a seperate person from God, and that you cannot do, and still be a Trinitarian. If God has a spirit, and Jesus has a spirit, that makes “them” two individuals (not One God). Do you see? If not, then it is impossible for me to explain to you any further than I already have what I believe about the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of God. It seems to be clear to others, so I apologize that it has not been made clear to you. I doubt that either one of us will abandoned our faith, but there is always hope that one of us may be able to explain something to the other one and clarify a topic. That is what I was hoping would happen. But, at last we have come to this again. You cannot see my belief, and I cannot see yours. We both tried, didn't we?
not3in1Thats ok you have ansered my question. You believe there is two Spirits that live in you and not one, because you believe that the Word/God yeshua is not God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
To you Jesus is a man. But not deity. Therefore Gods Spirit is in you and Jesus the mans spirit is in you. Is that right?
BTW Jesus is a seperate person from the Father but not seperate in his nature or class of being.
Thanks
Hi W,
You say
“BTW Jesus is a seperate person from the Father but not seperate in his nature or class of being.”
Not UNIQUE then?
So when did this separate PERSON become ONE with GOD?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2007,00:11) Hi W,
You say
“BTW Jesus is a seperate person from the Father but not seperate in his nature or class of being.”
Not UNIQUE then?
So when did this separate PERSON become ONE with GOD?
NHHe became “Unique” when he took on the likeness of flesh and was born the “Unique” Son of God!
The second person the Word/God is from eternity.
He has always been the Word/God who was with God!
Therefore he has always been one with the Father!
Some choose not to believe “all” of the scriptures, they must carry whiteout with them when they go to their Bibles.
I choose to believe them all.
How about you?
Hi W,
So being from eternity to you means he had no origins
and there were always two…or is it three?WJ wrote:
BTW Jesus is a seperate person from the Father but not seperate in his nature or class of being.****************************
Even when I was a Trinitarian, this explaination of Jesus was always lacking for me. The reason is this: Jesus is a man. In fact, he is so much of a man that he called himself my brother! But God is NOT a man. How can the two be one, then? How can they share the same “being?”
WJ wrote:
To you Jesus is a man. But not deity. Therefore Gods Spirit is in you and Jesus the mans spirit is in you. Is that right?****************************************************
Jesus is a divine man. Because of Christ, we can also partake of this divine nature.
We must remember that the spirit that lives in Christ is of God. Christ is of God, and we are of Christ. We all (including Christ) share the same, One spirit (which is God the Father).
So, no – I do not have two spirits in me.
Thanks for this great discussion. I have seriously pondered some new things through this thread.
When we receive the holy spirit we become part of the body. Jesus is the head of the body. If we are part of the body then we have Jesus as our head.
Good point, Ken.
I always ask my husband to pray for things I need a quick answer to……..he only has to go through one head…..I have to go through two!
Man is the head of women – Christ is the head of man – God is the head of Christ
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 29 2007,23:32) So, no – I do not have two spirits in me.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.Aside from God's Spirit that dwells in his children, do we not have our own spirit?
What do others think?
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,17:47) Hi Not3in1 Either you made perfect sense to me there or our minds are thinking alike. And I would like to say the same to Tim as well.
However, though, the scripture John 1:1 throws this concept out of proportion. I must read some more into this.
But first I must mention. Last night I explained to the elders of SDA my feelings about the Trinity. Although they explained their understanding of it I had to let them know that is the same understanding I have. So I explained them what some Trinitarians believe the Trinity means… that 1) God came down to be Jesus. Or 2) that God separated a portion of himself to come down and become Jesus. They disagreed with both notions but still agree with the Trinity. So, obviously there are heaps of ways in seeing this trinity LOL. Anyway, the subject got changed. And when this happens it tells me they dont want to discuss the matter anymore. Fair enough.
We are studying the book of Mark at the moment and we were up to Chapter 10 last night. And we came across the verse…18″Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I just sat there and kept my mouth shut and waited to see if anyone in the group wouldnt mention anything about that. But no one did! So, yeah… as much as i love these people the Trinity is the only thing that separates me from them. And that is exactly how i felt last night.
Another story i was told by a woman (whom isnt an SDA) and she was explaining to me about the Trinity, was that there was a bee in her house and she didnt want to kill it but try and shoo it out the window or door. She said that whatever she did was not working and at that instance she thought to herself…'if only I could become a bee to be able to guide it out the door'. I have read another story pretty much similar to this before as well.
So can you imagine how my head feels? LOL. No wonder it is screaming WTF?
But…my heart just wont let me accept the Trinity. And I dont understand why other peoples hearts dont feel the same. Which is why i wanted to discuss this with the elders to find out if their hearts had the same. One of them said that she had a hard time understanding it herself when she was younger. But now she understands. She is in her 60's now I think and she was raised with the church. So… maybe they all had doubts in their hearts years ago but maybe years of constantly being told there is a Trinity (brainwashing?) has now been set in their minds.
I dont know. I dont want to speculate or accuse. They really are wonderful people. Just a shame that one little separation comes between us.
And I have waffled on enough
Hugs
PhoenixEdit: I forgot to mention too that the elders pointed out the John 1:1 scripture to me. So yeah, as usual i was a bit lost for words.
Hi Phoenix.The Trinity doctrine is probably what started or got denominations going in the first place, so it is highly unlikely that the true answer would be found in the system that it spawned.
Once Rome made that doctrine the official one, it was then enforced and it created one of the first (if not the first) denomination. From there many people broke away from that Roman Church afterward, but kept the Trinity foundation and those churches became the daughters of the mother by reason of the same foundation. That is not to say that truth wasn't discovered on the way, but the foundation remained.
So if we go to a denomination that is founded on this foundation, it would be extremely unlikely that you would be able to challenge that doctrine with them because in doing so you would be questioning their very foundation and such an act would be frowned upon and seen as an attack, even an act of treason.
Therefore if people like us do not challenge the doctrine it probably will never be challenged.
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