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That's very sweet t8.
However, this one verse alone has you stumped.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
But there again, you have your own “another Jesus” (antichrist)
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 05 2007,05:13) Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Hey CB,Did the Roman believers learn the doctrine of Trinity? Show me.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 05 2007,22:11) That's very sweet t8. However, this one verse alone has you stumped.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Tell me this CultB.If Jesus being the mighty el, means that he is YHWH, then is he also the Heavenly Father if he is the everlasting father?
You never argue that he is also the Heavenly Father. Yet your argument to equate mighty el with YHWH, should also equate Heavenly Father with everlasting father.
So you are not consistent.
The conclusion:
You listen to that which tickles your ears and ignore the rest.
Of course I am not arguing that Yeshua is the Heavenly Father, far from it. I am only commenting on your promotion of certain doctrines and ignorance of all else that contradicts it. Even your own wisdom when applied elsewhere creates conclusions that you do not agree with. So your response is to ignore such.
But if your wisdom were from above, it would be lovely and it would agree with the truth in all that it was applied to.
Unfortunately your wisdom is inconsistent.
That is why I say that people should be wary of your leaven.
Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. This is the foundation of the true Church and this foundation is what you attack every time you preach another foundation, namely the Trinity doctrine.
But you or hell will not prevail against this truth.
Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Messiah. He is not part of a Trinity or Babylonian God.
Repent.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 07 2007,21:04) Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 05 2007,22:11) That's very sweet t8. However, this one verse alone has you stumped.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Tell me this CultB.If Jesus being the mighty el, means that he is YHWH, then is he also the Heavenly Father if he is the everlasting father?
You never argue that he is also the Heavenly Father. Yet your argument to equate mighty el with YHWH, should also equate Heavenly Father with everlasting father.
So you are not consistent.
The conclusion:
You listen to that which tickles your ears and ignore the rest.
Of course I am not arguing that Yeshua is the Heavenly Father, far from it. I am only commenting on your promotion of certain doctrines and ignorance of all else that contradicts it. Even your own wisdom when applied elsewhere creates conclusions that you do not agree with. So your response is to ignore such.
But if your wisdom were from above, it would be lovely and it would agree with the truth in all that it was applied to.
Unfortunately your wisdom is inconsistent.
That is why I say that people should be wary of your leaven.
Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. This is the foundation of the true Church and this foundation is what you attack every time you preach another foundation, namely the Trinity doctrine.
But you or hell will not prevail against this truth.
Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Messiah. He is not part of a Trinity or Babylonian God.
Repent.
t8What are you saying?
That Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to Yeshua?
So he has not been given the name “Everlasting father”?
Whats the word you used? Ignorance, Inconsistant.
If you say that Jesus is not an “Everlasting Father” then you have to be consistant t8.
So he has a name “Prince of Peace” but, he is not the “Prince of Peace”?
So he has a name “Wonderful” but, he is not “Wonderful”?
So he has a name “Counsellor” but, he is not “Counsellor”?
Abraham was the Father of Nations.
There is a greater here.
No he is not “The Father” but neverteless he is an “Everlasting Father”, Isa 9:6 says so.
If Abraham and Paul are Fathers, what makes you think Jesus can not be a Father when all things were created by him and for him?
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
1 Cor 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.Let me see what are the words you used…
Ignorance, ignore, not consistant, contradicts, inconsistant, weary of your leaven…
Oh yes and “Repent”.
Dear WJ and CB;
Both of you appear to be in the same camp so I will submit this to both of you. CB you've stated in many posts that Christ is Jehovah. In fairness to WJ, I don't recall you making such a claim. Here goes. God appeared to Moses and said he was the same God that appeared to Abraham, identifying himself as Jehovah and the Almighty. Gabriel appeared to Mary and said her child would be the Son of the Highest. Peter in Acts 2 said that God approved Christ and raised him from the dead and identified God as the same God which David served. Stephen in Acts 7 said that the same God that appeared to Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees raised Christ from the dead. Paul the apostle made the same claims in Acts 13. All of the apostles in Acts simply refer to God as God, but make reference to Moses, Abraham, David, and that the God of the fathers raised up Christ from the dead. So how is it that you believe that Jesus is Jehovah the God of the fathers. Perhaps a better question would be, are you serving another Jehovah? Where do the apostles make any implication in their preaching that Christ was Jehovah God? Remember, if you claim he is Jehovah you are making the claim that he is also the Almighty, the Most High and of course, the Heavenly Father of Himself. Why don't the apostle state God raised up Christ from the seed of Abraham? Why don't the apostles make the grand conclusion that you do in your preaching that God became a man? All references to Christ is that he is the Son of God. Ye do greatly error not knowing the scriptures. Finally, for CB only, if you want to just continue the cut and paste responses, I'll take into consideration that making an actual interpretation based on intelligent thoughts is new to you.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,11:11) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 07 2007,21:04) Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 05 2007,22:11) That's very sweet t8. However, this one verse alone has you stumped.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Tell me this CultB.If Jesus being the mighty el, means that he is YHWH, then is he also the Heavenly Father if he is the everlasting father?
You never argue that he is also the Heavenly Father. Yet your argument to equate mighty el with YHWH, should also equate Heavenly Father with everlasting father.
So you are not consistent.
The conclusion:
You listen to that which tickles your ears and ignore the rest.
Of course I am not arguing that Yeshua is the Heavenly Father, far from it. I am only commenting on your promotion of certain doctrines and ignorance of all else that contradicts it. Even your own wisdom when applied elsewhere creates conclusions that you do not agree with. So your response is to ignore such.
But if your wisdom were from above, it would be lovely and it would agree with the truth in all that it was applied to.
Unfortunately your wisdom is inconsistent.
That is why I say that people should be wary of your leaven.
Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. This is the foundation of the true Church and this foundation is what you attack every time you preach another foundation, namely the Trinity doctrine.
But you or hell will not prevail against this truth.
Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Messiah. He is not part of a Trinity or Babylonian God.
Repent.
t8What are you saying?
That Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to Yeshua?
So he has not been given the name “Everlasting father”?
Whats the word you used? Ignorance, Inconsistant.
If you say that Jesus is not an “Everlasting Father” then you have to be consistant t8.
So he has a name “Prince of Peace” but, he is not the “Prince of Peace”?
So he has a name “Wonderful” but, he is not “Wonderful”?
So he has a name “Counsellor” but, he is not “Counsellor”?
Abraham was the Father of Nations.
There is a greater here.
No he is not “The Father” but neverteless he is an “Everlasting Father”, Isa 9:6 says so.
If Abraham and Paul are Fathers, what makes you think Jesus can not be a Father when all things were created by him and for him?
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
1 Cor 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.Let me see what are the words you used…
Ignorance, ignore, not consistant, contradicts, inconsistant, weary of your leaven…
Oh yes and “Repent”.
Hey WJ,I think I may have asked this of CB before t8 did. The reason I bring up “Eternal Father” is because of the phrase “name shall be called”. A name does not signify you are that being. My name is Kevin, but I am a human. Will I retain my name, Kevin, in heaven (sorry it rhymes)? But my name does not make me who I am. So the fact that “Eternal Father” is in this verse along with the others I think signifies that Yeshua is not these things, but that he is related to these things in some way.
On a side note, here are some verses with the “names” in them. This does not mean i support them as a belief, but that they exist.
Jdg 13:18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”
Act 5:31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Now I don't have anything that matches “Eternal Father” or “Mighty God” but the two may be able to be put together to signify the relationship that was soon to be seen. That is, the one who is prophesied here would have as Father the Mighty God. After all, we don't see many references to “The Father” being used in the OT.
Of course, this is just speculation because I have not good scripture to support it.
T8;
Amen. I've asked CB to try to give an analysis or interpretation along with his cutting and pasting. I have no idea where is coming from. But now I can at least see why he doesn't try arguing in his own words.
Mr. Steve
CB;
All of the names that Christ is called in Isaiah 9:6 were given to him by his Father. Christ said the Father has given to him all things to him and was nothing in himself alone. Do you know why it's just that easy? Because its the truth. Maybe someday you will read the gospel of John and find out for yourself.
Steve,
CB really stands for “Cluster Bomb”. That is, he just “cluster bombs” us with verses and then expects as to suddenly start believing as he does. Hey, I have a Bible too.
Kejonn;
Good one! The scriptures say, How can they hear without a preacher? Someone must interpret before they preach. Maybe CB's translation reads, How can they hear without a manuscript?
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 08 2007,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,11:11) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 07 2007,21:04) Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 05 2007,22:11) That's very sweet t8. However, this one verse alone has you stumped.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Tell me this CultB.If Jesus being the mighty el, means that he is YHWH, then is he also the Heavenly Father if he is the everlasting father?
You never argue that he is also the Heavenly Father. Yet your argument to equate mighty el with YHWH, should also equate Heavenly Father with everlasting father.
So you are not consistent.
The conclusion:
You listen to that which tickles your ears and ignore the rest.
Of course I am not arguing that Yeshua is the Heavenly Father, far from it. I am only commenting on your promotion of certain doctrines and ignorance of all else that contradicts it. Even your own wisdom when applied elsewhere creates conclusions that you do not agree with. So your response is to ignore such.
But if your wisdom were from above, it would be lovely and it would agree with the truth in all that it was applied to.
Unfortunately your wisdom is inconsistent.
That is why I say that people should be wary of your leaven.
Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. This is the foundation of the true Church and this foundation is what you attack every time you preach another foundation, namely the Trinity doctrine.
But you or hell will not prevail against this truth.
Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Messiah. He is not part of a Trinity or Babylonian God.
Repent.
t8What are you saying?
That Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to Yeshua?
So he has not been given the name “Everlasting father”?
Whats the word you used? Ignorance, Inconsistant.
If you say that Jesus is not an “Everlasting Father” then you have to be consistant t8.
So he has a name “Prince of Peace” but, he is not the “Prince of Peace”?
So he has a name “Wonderful” but, he is not “Wonderful”?
So he has a name “Counsellor” but, he is not “Counsellor”?
Abraham was the Father of Nations.
There is a greater here.
No he is not “The Father” but neverteless he is an “Everlasting Father”, Isa 9:6 says so.
If Abraham and Paul are Fathers, what makes you think Jesus can not be a Father when all things were created by him and for him?
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
1 Cor 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.Let me see what are the words you used…
Ignorance, ignore, not consistant, contradicts, inconsistant, weary of your leaven…
Oh yes and “Repent”.
Hey WJ,I think I may have asked this of CB before t8 did. The reason I bring up “Eternal Father” is because of the phrase “name shall be called”. A name does not signify you are that being. My name is Kevin, but I am a human. Will I retain my name, Kevin, in heaven (sorry it rhymes)? But my name does not make me who I am. So the fact that “Eternal Father” is in this verse along with the others I think signifies that Yeshua is not these things, but that he is related to these things in some way.
On a side note, here are some verses with the “names” in them. This does not mean i support them as a belief, but that they exist.
Jdg 13:18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”
Act 5:31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Now I don't have anything that matches “Eternal Father” or “Mighty God” but the two may be able to be put together to signify the relationship that was soon to be seen. That is, the one who is prophesied here would have as Father the Mighty God. After all, we don't see many references to “The Father” being used in the OT.
Of course, this is just speculation because I have not good scripture to support it.
kejonnI dont have much time but thought I would at least respond to your desperate attempt to make Isa 9:6 say something that it does not.
So what are you saying…
Is Jesus the “Prince of Peace” or not?
Is Jesus “Wonderful” or not?
Is Jesus “Councelor” or not?
Is Jesus “Everlasting Father” or not?
If he is then he is the might God!
Jdg 13:18 makes no sense in relation to Isa 9:6.
Acts 5:31 says he “IS” the Prince.
Eph 2:14 says he “IS” our peace.
The above supports that Yeshua is…
- Wonderful
- Councelor
- The mighty God
- The everlasting Father
- The Prince of Peace
You said…
Quote
That is, the one who is prophesied here would have as Father the Mighty God. After all, we don't see many references to “The Father” being used in the OT. Of course, this is just speculation because I have not good scripture to support it.You are right kejonn it is speculation!
Its amazing to me how Trinitarians are accused of taking scripture out of context and or making them say what they want, but what is this.
Isa 9:6 is an unambiguous prophecy of Yeshua and not the Father.
Truly he is the “mighty God” or he is none of the rest!
WJ I have to say something real quick, I too have to go, but if what you are saying is true the scriptures contradicts because of what it says in
Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body, one Spirit, just as you were called in on hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND IN US ALL.
Peace Mrs.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 09 2007,09:50) kejonn I dont have much time but thought I would at least respond to your desperate attempt to make Isa 9:6 say something that it does not.
No I'm not. I'm merely trying to relate it to other scripture. Show me where outside this verse that Yeshua is called “Mighty God”. The way prophecy is fulfilled is that it can be shown to have come true. Since Yeshua is never called “Mighty God” you already have unfulfilled pophecy thus far.Quote Is Jesus the “Prince of Peace” or not?
He is called a Prince in one place, and he is said to bring peace in other places, so combining the two, you can get “Prince of Peace”.Quote Is Jesus “Wonderful” or not?
Yes, he is. Yet, is he ever called wonderful outside of this verse? If not, another piece of unfulfilled prophecy.Quote Is Jesus “Councelor” or not?
Is he? Show me where in scripture this description is used of him outside of thos verse.Quote Is Jesus “Everlasting Father” or not?
Show me where he is called “father” much less “everlasting father” anywhere. In fact, Yeshua set the record straight for usMat 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Since Yeshua said this while on earth, he was referring to his Father in heaven.
Now, as I said, I was trying to relate Is 9:6 to other instances, but you saw at is a denial of Yeshua. Yet, not a single name was given to him in Is 9:6 according to scripture, unless you count the combination of verses to come up with “Prince of Peace”. That is not to say that we will not hear these things said of him sometime in the future, but scripture does not support this claim thus far. If you can show me where, I will thank you.
Yet, we can be fairly certain that the verse applies to Yeshua because of Is 9:7.
But lets' look at “Mighty God”. The phrase in Hebrew is “el gibbowr”. “Mighty” is fine, but according to blueletter.com, “gibbowr” can mean
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
b) angels
c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, powerNot only that, one of the reasons you likely don't see this any part of this verse quoted in the NT is that most of the writers of the NT used the Septuagint and not the Masoretic. Lets see how the Septuagint has Isaiah 9:6
Is 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Quite different wouldn't you say! No “Mighty God” at all, much less “Everlasting Father”.
Finally, the Dead Sea Scrolls had some differences in this verse as well. From http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_selections.html
This verse also has a few differences from the Masoretic text. On the bottom line the underlined word to the right is אלגבור (elgibor). In the Masoretic text this is written as two words – אל גבור (el gibor). The word אל (el) means “God” and גבור (gibor) means “warrior”. Together these words mean “God is a warrior”. Because these two words are written as one in the Dead Sea Scroll it appears that these two words are a name – “elgibor”.
The two underlined words to the left of “elgibor” is אבי עד (aviy ad). The word אבי (aviy) means “father of..” and עד (ad) means “again” or “until”. This word is often used in the phrase לעלם ועד (l'olam v'ed). While this is usually translated as “forever and ever” it literally means “to eternity and again”. The word עד (ad/ed) never means “eternity”. These two words would best be translated as “father of Ad (a name)” as “father of again” or “father of until” makes no sense. In the Masoretic text these two words are written as one indicating a name – Aviyad.
The far left underlined phrase is שר השלום (sar hashalom). In the Masoretic text this phrase is written as שר שלום (sar shalom), the letter ה (ha) meaning “the” is missing. The word שר (sar) means “ruler” and שלום (shalom) means “peace” (or more literally whole or complete). The phrase in the Masoretic text would be translated as “ruler of peace” while in the Dead Sea Scroll it would be “ruler of the peace” or “ruler of the peaceful one”. It is likely the word השלום (hashalom) is again a name – Hashalom (Another name for “Jerusalem”?).
Realizing that this verse is identifying the name of child, it is likely that the final words of this passage would be translated as “Elgibor the father of Ad, ruler of Hashalom”.
Now none of this means a whole hill of beans, but it does show that there may have been some preservation issues. No computers or printing presses back then, just scribes.
So perhaps it will come to pass. Is 9:7 leads one to believe so. But in the meantime, not yet.
Quote If he is then he is the might God. Jdg 13:18 makes no sense in relation to Isa 9:6.
Huh?Jdg 13:8 Then Manoah entreated the LORD and said, “O Lord, please let the man of God whom You have sent come to us again that he may teach us what to do for the boy who is to be born.”
Quote Acts 5:31 says he “IS” the Prince. Eph 2:14 says he “IS” our peace.
Covered above.Quote The above supports that Yeshua is… - Wonderful
- Councelor
- The mighty God
- The everlasting Father
- The Prince of Peace
No, it doesn't.Quote You said… Quote
That is, the one who is prophesied here would have as Father the Mighty God. After all, we don't see many references to “The Father” being used in the OT. Of course, this is just speculation because I have not good scripture to support it.You are right kejonn it is speculation!
Its amazing to me how Trinitarians are accused of taking scripture out of context and or making them say what they want, but what is this.
I said “speculation”. That means “maybe”. Sheesh.Quote Isa 9:6 is an unambiguous prophecy of Yeshua and not the Father. Truly he is the “mighty God” or he is none of the rest!
And we have yet to see where he is any of the rest.Dear WJ;
Much of what I am going to state may sound funny but that is not my intention. Perhaps, the reason why it appears humorous is because it's so elementary. The gospel wasn't intended to be complex. Man has made the gospel confusing but it's not. It becomes confusing when man begins to interject into scripture that which is contrary to scripture.
This should help you distinguish Christ the Son of God from his Father. To preface this post, always be sure your interpretation of who Jesus is does not contradict what Christ taught. That sounds like sarcasim but it's not. You'll see why when you read the following how many of the doctrines of God, including Jesus is the Almighty God, Jehovah, etc., are incorrect. I'm not sure why Christ made this so clear but there must have been a good reason. I'm beginning to see why. Who do men say I am?
At a glance, no real harm is done if you claim that Christ is the Almighty God. It's believed by some that unless you believe that Christ is God then you are not saved. I don't know if that's your belief. Christ said you must believe that he is the Son of God to have eternal life, not that he was God. That is the essence of the gospel message. So never conclude from an ambiguous statement contrary to what Christ taught. So I make the following plea of truth.
Christ was sent from God. Christ said he came down from heaven. So Christ was not only sent from God but was with God in heaven. Christ does not change. Therefore, he was in heaven with God as the Son of God.
Jesus said many times, perhaps more than any other statement, that he was sent from his Father. There are significant truths to be understood from this statement. Particularly, the Father is greater than the Son, the Father chose not to go personally himself, but in spirit with his Son. Jesus said the Father was with him at all times, but he also said no man hath seen the Father at anytime but him, so the Father was with him spiritually, not in a glorified manner. Therefore, the Father remained in heaven and sent his Son to us.
I contend Christ existed as the Son of God before coming to earth. Christ said he came not of his own will or of himself. In order to have a will you must exist. He also said it was the Father's will, not his, thereby, distinguishing his will from his Father's will, which also distinguishes Christ as a Son of God separate in identity from his Father. Christ does not change so he must have been the Son of God in heaven.
John 6:46 says, No man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Christ stated several truths in a short statement. The Father is God, not Christ. Christ has seen the Father. Therefore, he is distinct in identity. He did not say he was the Father. Christ said that his Father was God.
Christ also taught his Father was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of Abraham revealed himself as the Almighty. If you believe that Christ is the Almighty you are contradicting what Christ taught, even though unintentionally. Christ's Father is the Almighty. If you believe that Christ is the Almighty then you do not believe what Christ taught because he said repeatedly the Father sent him. His Father is the Almighty. Any other doctrine that purports otherwise teaches a mistaken identity doctrine of God and Christ. You are teaching that Christ wasn't sent by God, but that God himself was the same person as Christ, which also contradicts what Christ taught. If Jesus made any issue clear it was that he was distinct from his Father.
When you look at all the names which were given to Christ the Son of God you have to see that the names were given to him. Who gave Christ his names? The Father. Correct, end of issue. Yes, even the names in Revelation.
You contend you are not a modalist, who hold the belief that God just takes different forms at different times, but when you say Christ is the Almighty your doctrine is modalistic, it's not even trinitarian.
I believe you desire to believe the truth, but you have to understand what it is first. I propose that you stay very close to the gospel of John and what Christ taught and then make your interpretation of other books like Revelation upon the truths of the gospel.
Take care,
Steven
Steve,
MIM used to believe in the trinity. Her and her husband no longer do, but they have grown children who do. If I also recall correctly, MIM used to be members of a Catholic church.
Kejonn
You said…
Quote
Not only that, one of the reasons you likely don't see this any part of this verse quoted in the NT is that most of the writers of the NT used the Septuagint and not the Masoretic. Lets see how the Septuagint has Isaiah 9:6Yes kejonn but the writers of the NT also called Jesus God!
There you go again. You oppose every major translation and 100s of scholars in order to support your theory that Isa 9:6 is not a prophetic scripture of Yeshuas and his natural birth.
Not only do you appose the works of all the scholars but you have taken a stand against most commentators of the scriptures.
First lets talk about the “Septuagint”.
As you know the Septuagint is an english translation of the “koine Greek” translation of the Hebrew text.
There is more than one English translation.
For instance the 2001 translation – An American English Bible renders Isa 9:6…
6 A child was born and a son was given to us, upon whose shoulders the kingship will come. His name will be called, Messenger of the Great Decree; The Wonderful Councilor; The Mighty God; The Great Authority; The Prince of Peace; and The Father of the Coming Age. Then I will bring peace to the prince and give him health.
http://www.2001translation.com/Now look at some of the commentators…
Mattew Henrys
1. See him in his humiliation. The same that is the mighty God is a child born; the ancient of days becomes an infant of a span long; the everlasting Father is a Son given. Such was his condescension in taking our nature upon him; thus did he humble and empty himself, to exalt and fill us. He is born into our world. The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. He is given, freely given, to be all that to us which our case, in our fallen state, calls for. God so loved the world that he gave him. He is born to us, he is given to us, us men, and not to the angels that sinned. It is spoken with an air of triumph, and the angel seems to refer to these words in the notice he gives to the shepherds of the Messiah's having come (Luke ii. 11), Unto you is born, this day, a Saviour. Note, Christ's being born and given to us is the great foundation of our hopes, and fountain of our joys, in times of greatest grief and fear.
2. See him in his exaltation. This child, this son, this Son of God, this Son of man, that is given to us, is in a capacity to do us a great deal of kindness; for he is invested with the highest honour and power, so that we cannot but be happy if he be our friend.
(1.) See the dignity he is advanced to, and the name he has above every name. He shall be called (and therefore we are sure he is and shall be) Wonderful, Counsellor, &c. His people shall know him and worship him by these names; and, as one that fully answers them, they shall submit to him and depend upon him. [1.] He is wonderful, counsellor. Justly is he called wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints; in his birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, he was wonderful. A constant series of wonders attended him, and, without controversy, great was the mystery of godliness concerning him.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc4.Is.x.html
John Wesley…
Mighty God – This title can agree to no man but Christ, who was God as well as man, to whom the title of God or Jehovah is given, both in the Old and New Testament. And it is a true observation, that this Hebrew word El is never used in the singular number, of any creature, but only of the almighty God. The father – The father of eternity. Who, though as man he was then unborn, yet was and is from everlasting to everlasting.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Comment….ter=009The Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 6. The government shall be upon his shoulder
That is, the ensign of government; the sceptre, the sword, the key, or the like, which was borne upon or hung from the shoulder. See Clarke on Isaiah 22:22.
And his name shall be called
El gibbor, the prevailing or conquering God.
The everlasting Father-“The Father of the everlasting age”Or Abi ad, the Father of eternity. The Septuagint have μεγαληςβουληςαγγελος, “the Messenger of the Great Counsel.” But instead of Abi ad, a MS. of De Rossi has Abezer, the helping Father; **evidently the corruption of some Jew, who did not like such an evidence in favour of the Christian Messiah**.
Prince of Peace
sar shalom, the Prince of prosperity, the Giver of all blessings.
A MS. of the thirteenth century in Kennicott's collection has a remarkable addition here. “He shall be a stumbling-block, ; the government is on his shoulder.” This reading is nowhere else acknowledged, as far as I know.
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible
and of counsel and might, rests: the mighty God;
or “God the mighty One” F18; as some read the words with a comma; but if read together, the sense is the same; Christ is God, truly and properly so; as appears from his name Jehovah, which is peculiar to the most High; from his nature and perfections, being the same with his Father's: from the works performed by him, as those of creation, providence, miracles, redemption, resurrection from the dead, &c.; and from the worship given him, which only belongs to God; also he is called our God, your God, their God, my God, by which epithets those that are not truly God are never called; he is said to be God manifest in the flesh; God over all, blessed for ever; the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and he is “the mighty One” as appears by the works he did, previous to his incarnation; as the creation of all things out of nothing; the upholding of all things by the word or his power;
http://www.studylight.org/com….verse=6David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible
h. The Messiah is Mighty God: The God of all creation and glory, the LORD who reigns in heaven, the One worthy of our worship and praise.
i. Can there be a more straightforward declaration of the deity of the Messiah? Yet some groups (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) try to make a distinction between Mighty God and Almighty God. Scripturally, there is no distinction, because both titles are used of Jesus and Yahweh specifically (Almighty is applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:8).
ii. In Isaiah 10:21, the prophet uses the exact same phrase to refer to Yahweh: The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. Therefore, this is a clear statement of absolute deity
iii. “And indeed, if Christ had not been God, it would have been unlawful to glory in him; for it is written, Cursed be he that trusteth in man. (Jeremiah 17:5)” (Calvin)
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
name . . . called–His essential characteristics shall be.
Wonderful–(See on Isa 8:18; Jud 1
3:18, Margin; 1Ti 3:16).
Counsellor– (Ps 16:7; Ro 11:33, 34; 1Co 1:24; Col 2:3).
mighty God– (Isa 10:21; Ps 24:8; Tit 2:13) HORSLEY translates: “God the mighty man.” “Unto us . . . God” is equivalent to “Immanuel” (Isa 7:14).
everlasting Father–This marks Him as “Wonderful,” that He is “a child,” yet the “everlasting Father” (Joh 10:30; 14:9). Earthly kings leave their people after a short reign; He will reign over and bless them for ever [HENGSTENBERG].
Prince of Peace–(See on Isa 9:5; Ge 49:10; Shiloh, “The Tranquillizer”). Finally (Ho 2:18). Even already He is “our peace” (Lu 2:14; Eph 2:14).
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6Now lets look at the credible English Translations of Isa 9:6.
NASB:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (NASB ©1995)
GWT:
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.(GOD'S WORD®)
KJV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
ASV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
BBE:
For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.
DBY:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
ERV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
JPS:
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
WBS:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
WEB:
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
YLT:
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.NKJV
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NLT
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.ESV
For to us a child is born ,to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon [fn4] his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NIV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [fn2] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.RSV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”HNV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Shalom.Even the NWT translates it as such…
NWT
6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.You see kejonn, the 100s of translators had access to tens of thousands of works and ancient copys of the scriptures as well as the Septuagint yet the vast majority renders Isa 9:6 as you read it now in the AV. I believe the translators knew more than we.
You being a Baptist for 20 years continue to cast shadows on the written scriptures that we have!
Truly, Jesus is the “Mighty God”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 10 2007,02:15) Kejonn You said…
Quote
Not only that, one of the reasons you likely don't see this any part of this verse quoted in the NT is that most of the writers of the NT used the Septuagint and not the Masoretic. Lets see how the Septuagint has Isaiah 9:6Yes kejonn but the writers of the NT also called Jesus God!
There you go again. You oppose every major translation and 100s of scholars in order to support your theory that Isa 9:6 is not a prophetic scripture of Yeshuas and his natural birth.
Nope. When I do these things I merely show that there IS a potential difference. So it makes things questionable. And yes, he was called God by Thomas and perhaps in a few places (but many of them deny the proper use of good English to get there), but never “Mighty God”. And none of the others either unless you piece together verses to come up with the phrases.Quote Not only do you appose the works of all the scholars but you have taken a stand against most commentators of the scriptures.
I read the comments on bible.cc. Almost all of it was implication and very apologetic sounding. I used to believe in Apologetics until I started paying attention. Now I see that the majority of Apologetics uses vague speech and heavy implication with strong eisegesis.Quote First lets talk about the “Septuagint”. As you know the Septuagint is an english translation of the “koine Greek” translation of the Hebrew text.
There is more than one English translation.
For instance the 2001 translation – An American English Bible renders Isa 9:6…
6 A child was born and a son was given to us, upon whose shoulders the kingship will come. His name will be called, Messenger of the Great Decree; The Wonderful Councilor; The Mighty God; The Great Authority; The Prince of Peace; and The Father of the Coming Age. Then I will bring peace to the prince and give him health.
http://www.2001translation.com/
Thanks! I looked for awhile to find something else because I was troubled that the verse was so different. The Septuagint isn't usually that different. And “the Father of the Coming Age” makes much more sense that “Everlasting Father” although the Septuagint version makes the Masoretic one clearer.Quote Now look at some of the commentators… Mattew Henrys
1. See him in his humiliation. The same that is the mighty God is a child born; the ancient of days becomes an infant of a span long; the everlasting Father is a Son given. Such was his condescension in taking our nature upon him; thus did he humble and empty himself, to exalt and fill us. He is born into our world. The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. He is given, freely given, to be all that to us which our case, in our fallen state, calls for. God so loved the world that he gave him. He is born to us, he is given to us, us men, and not to the angels that sinned. It is spoken with an air of triumph, and the angel seems to refer to these words in the notice he gives to the shepherds of the Messiah's having come (Luke ii. 11), Unto you is born, this day, a Saviour. Note, Christ's being born and given to us is the great foundation of our hopes, and fountain of our joys, in times of greatest grief and fear.
2. See him in his exaltation. This child, this son, this Son of God, this Son of man, that is given to us, is in a capacity to do us a great deal of kindness; for he is invested with the highest honour and power, so that we cannot but be happy if he be our friend.
(1.) See the dignity he is advanced to, and the name he has above every name. He shall be called (and therefore we are sure he is and shall be) Wonderful, Counsellor, &c. His people shall know him and worship him by these names; and, as one that fully answers them, they shall submit to him and depend upon him. [1.] He is wonderful, counsellor. Justly is he called wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints; in his birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, he was wonderful. A constant series of wonders attended him, and, without controversy, great was the mystery of godliness concerning him.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc4.Is.x.htmlExactly what I said above. Implication and no strong solid evidence. Commentary is no good without strong evidence to support it. “Justly is he called wonderful, for he is both God and man”. Trinitarian statement. So I'm automatically supposed to support it? Bias. But it has no support just because he says “this is why he is called wonderful although he is never called such in scripture”.
Quote
John Wesley…
Mighty God – This title can agree to no man but Christ, who was God as well as man, to whom the title of God or Jehovah is given, both in the Old and New Testament. And it is a true observation, that this Hebrew word El is never used in the singular number, of any creature, but only of the almighty God. The father – The father of eternity. Who, though as man he was then unborn, yet was and is from everlasting to everlasting.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Comment….ter=009
Again, bias. Hercules was supposed to be the child of a god and man, but he was never called “fully god, fully man”. Of course Hercules is just a myth but I've yet to see one scripture that supports “fully God, fully Man”. One cannot be both if he is born of man. And if he is “fully God”, can we ever even hope to be “Christlike” knowing he had every advantage we will never have? Again, people shun Christianity for this because they believe in obtainable goals.Quote The Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 6. The government shall be upon his shoulder
That is, the ensign of government; the sceptre, the sword, the key, or the like, which was borne upon or hung from the shoulder. See Clarke on Isaiah 22:22.
And his name shall be called
El gibbor, the prevailing or conquering God.
The everlasting Father-“The Father of the everlasting age”
Do you know that Martin Luther used the title “divine hero” in his translation? Why is his title any less applicable than what the above commentators try to read into
the verse? And James Moffatt supported this title.Quote Or Abi ad, the Father of eternity. The Septuagint have μεγαληςβουληςαγγελος, “the Messenger of the Great Counsel.” But instead of Abi ad, a MS. of De Rossi has Abezer, the helping Father; **evidently the corruption of some Jew, who did not like such an evidence in favour of the Christian Messiah**.
Speculation, and not proof. Just as what I supplied is speculation.Quote Prince of Peace
sar shalom, the Prince of prosperity, the Giver of all blessings.
A MS. of the thirteenth century in Kennicott's collection has a remarkable addition here. “He shall be a stumbling-block, ; the government is on his shoulder.” This reading is nowhere else acknowledged, as far as I know.
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6
Why was this listed? To show that people have added or taken away from the various manuscripts? Sure, the KJV is full of such examples.Quote The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible
and of counsel and might, rests: the mighty God;
or “God the mighty One” F18; as some read the words with a comma; but if read together, the sense is the same; Christ is God, truly and properly so; as appears from his name Jehovah, which is peculiar to the most High; from his nature and perfections, being the same with his Father's: from the works performed by him, as those of creation, providence, miracles, redemption, resurrection from the dead, &c.; and from the worship given him, which only belongs to God; also he is called our God, your God, their God, my God, by which epithets those that are not truly God are never called; he is said to be God manifest in the flesh; God over all, blessed for ever; the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and he is “the mighty One” as appears by the works he did, previous to his incarnation; as the creation of all things out of nothing; the upholding of all things by the word or his power;
http://www.studylight.org/com….verse=6
Again, bias as this guy says he is “Jehovah”. So who is the Father? Some unknown background character who shows up in the New Testament? That's what I dislike about the Trinity — it makes Yeshua out to be in the forefront and people stick the father in their back pocket. Strange how this goes against all that Yeshua taught.Quote David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible
h. The Messiah is Mighty God: The God of all creation and glory, the LORD who reigns in heaven, the One worthy of our worship and praise.
i. Can there be a more straightforward declaration of the deity of the Messiah? Yet some groups (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) try to make a distinction between Mighty God and Almighty God. Scripturally, there is no distinction, because both titles are used of Jesus and Yahweh specifically (Almighty is applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:8).
ii. In Isaiah 10:21, the prophet uses the exact same phrase to refer to Yahweh: The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. Therefore, this is a clear statement of absolute deity
iii. “And indeed, if Christ had not been God, it would have been unlawful to glory in him; for it is written, Cursed be he that trusteth in man. (Jeremiah 17:5)” (Calvin)
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6
See above. The Father is not mentioned. Either this guy is a modalist or he too puts the Father in his back pocket. Are you not seeign the serious danger in the Trinity yet? Use to be Father now its all about His Son. Who will the true worshipers worship according to your God? See my tagline for clues. At least Yeshua had the proper perspective.Quote Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
name . . . called–His essential characteristics shall be.
Wonderful–(See on Isa 8:18; Jud 13:18, Margin; 1Ti 3:16).
Counsellor– (Ps 16:7; Ro 11:33, 34; 1Co 1:24; Col 2:3).
mighty God– (Isa 10:21; Ps 24:8; Tit 2:13) HORSLEY translates: “God the mighty man.” “Unto us . . . God” is equivalent to “Immanuel” (Isa 7:14).
everlasting Father–This marks Him as “Wonderful,” that He is “a child,” yet the “everlasting Father” (Joh 10:30; 14:9). Earthly kings leave their people after a short reign; He will reign over and bless them for ever [HENGSTENBERG].
Prince of Peace–(See on Isa 9:5; Ge 49:10; Shiloh, “The Tranquillizer”). Finally (Ho 2:18). Even already He is “our peace” (Lu 2:14; Eph 2:14).
http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa9_6
The Tranquilizer? So is theis guy saying Yeshua is like a drug? I've heard some weird things before….you really should look more closely at what you post.Quote Now lets look at the credible English Translations of Isa 9:6. NASB:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (NASB ©1995)
GWT:
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.(GOD'S WORD®)
KJV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
ASV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
BBE:
For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.
DBY:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
ERV:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
JPS:
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name
is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
WBS:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
WEB:
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
YLT:
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.NKJV
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NLT
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.ESV
For to us a child is born ,to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon [fn4] his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NIV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [fn2] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.RSV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”HNV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Shalom.Even the NWT translates it as such…
NWT
6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.You see kejonn, the 100s of translators had access to tens of thousands of works and ancient copys of the scriptures as well as the Septuagint yet the vast majority renders Isa 9:6 as you read it now in the AV. I believe the translators knew more than we.
Well, duh. As if I've never seen them. But beyond your biased commentators who are either modalists or they've forgotten there is a Father in heaven, I see no scriptural support. Commentators are not scripture, they are men who read their own meaning into scripture so they will feel good about their own beliefs.Quote You being a Baptist for 20 years continue to cast shadows on the written scriptures that we have!
Nope, just the way people apply them AND I'm not dumb enough to believe that some corruption, whether intentional or not, has creeped in because of men. If you believe this has not happened you are living under a rock.Quote Truly, Jesus is the “Mighty God”.
To you, yes he is. To me he is someone I can follow and pattern my life after because he didn't have every advantage over me. His whole life showed me what we could be if we would only do the Father's will. You know, the same Father that Yeshua so often honored? The one that the Trinitarians seem to have lost focus of? Again, compare your user name to what Yeshua said:Jhn 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Jhn 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Hmmm, note the context. v23 says to worship the Father in spirit and truth. And then he repeats it with the word “God”. Hard to refute the words of Yeshua. Yet you cling to the words of people like Thomas over those of the one you worship. Makes absolutely no sense to me.Jhn 20:17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
Words of the one you worship again. Yet you take Thomas' word over his.
Mar 15:34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which is translated, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
In the throes of death, and yet Yeshua tells us who his God is. Why is he not yours?
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