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Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2007,14:41) I missed this, where is quote showing Ignatius' warning?
Ignatius, who is Theophorus, to the Church which has received grace through the greatness of the Father Most High. (Third Epistle).I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,19:02) Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Who did the devil depart from. He departed from Christ who he was tempting.
The truth of Luke 4:1-13 is that it was Jesus “the Lord thy God” who was being tempted. This battle at the highest level is between God and Satan. Christ and Satan.
Jesus is The Lord Thy God. Worship Him!
Nice job of removing context again. I know what is going on here: you were a JW before, weren't you? Let's list the verses in context, lest some would see what you seeLuk 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness
Luk 4:2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry.
Luk 4:3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”Really, such a lame attempt is appalling.
Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,16:43) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,19:02) Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Who did the devil depart from. He departed from Christ who he was tempting.
The truth of Luke 4:1-13 is that it was Jesus “the Lord thy God” who was being tempted. This battle at the highest level is between God and Satan. Christ and Satan.
Jesus is The Lord Thy God. Worship Him!
Nice job of removing context again. I know what is going on here: you were a JW before, weren't you? Let's list the verses in context, lest some would see what you seeLuk 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness
Luk 4:2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry.
Luk 4:3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”Really, such a lame attempt is appalling.
kejonn. You still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus is The Lord Thy God. All you've done is created a diversion.
Try again!
Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Who did the devil depart from. He departed from Christ who he was tempting.
The truth of Luke 4:1-13 is that it was Jesus “the Lord thy God” who was being tempted. This battle at the highest level is between God and Satan. Christ and Satan.
Jesus is The Lord Thy God. Worship Him!
In case you are still not sure who the Son of God is.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
To CultB
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,13:00) Try again! Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Luke 4:1
1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,
2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil.Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and was being led by the Holy Spirit and while being led he is tempted by the Devil. This is why he said “It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”. So if he was tempted and he was being led by the Spirit and the Spirit was in him, then the Devil was tempting God. The Devil versus the Spirit.
Jesus was the vessel for God and he didn't come in his own name either, he came in his Father's name.
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.t8
Quote Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and was being led by the Holy Spirit and while being led he is tempted by the Devil. This is why he said “It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”. So if he was tempted and he was being led by the Spirit and the Spirit was in him, then the Devil was tempting God. The Devil versus the Spirit. t8. So what you just said is that the Holy Spirit is God.
You are putting the “twist” on scripture and by doing so, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
I prefer the clear Word of God.
Try again!
Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God..
Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Who did the devil depart from. He departed from Christ who he was tempting.
The truth of Luke 4:1-13 is that it was Jesus “the Lord thy God” who was being tempted. This battle at the highest level is between God and Satan. Christ and Satan.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,14:12) t8. So what you just said is that the Holy Spirit is God.
Correct. What's so funny about that?The LORD is the Spirit. It is God's Spirit. All good comes from God. He is also the Father of all spirits, (but isn't the blame for bad spirits).
He isn't a third member of a Triune God.
There isn't 2 or 3 Spirits that are God/YHWH. There are spirits that come from him. E.g., Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.Hi CB,
You preach a strange multipersonality God that is not in the bible.
So what is this clarity in the Word of God that you prefer?Those who preach Babylonian doctrine do it because of pride in their own understanding.
Those who are led by the Spirit will be set free from such.
CB,
You have some serious context problems with your theology. I showed you Luke 4:3, but let's just deal with the verses around 4:12 so you can (finally) see the context. Though I doubt you will (or will admit to it).
Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk 4:11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.In v9, again Satan calls him Son of God.
In v10-11, Satan does not refer to Yeshua as the one who shall give angels charge over Yeshua, but uses the pronoun “he”. This verse refers back to Psalm 91:11 and refers to YHWH. So Satan is saying to Yeshua that YHWH, the Father, will give His angels charge over Yeshua if he jumps. This is what he meant in v9 — if you are the Son of God, God will give His angels charge over Yeshua to rescue him.
in v12 Yeshua responds to the direct quote: Satan shall not tempt YHWH, a quote from Dt. 6:16.
Where do you live CB? If you live in the US, check your local neighborhood churches. There may be some vacation Bible schools going on. You could learn alot by attending one of those.
Quote (kejonn @ July 21 2007,15:59) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2007,14:06)
Okay, I see your point of view now. Thanks for explaining. I actually agree with you that He did not inherit the title “God”. He always was (John 1:1c), is (John 20:28) and always will be “God” (Zech 14; Heb 1:8-12; Rev 1:17, 2:9, 22:13). I don't believe “being God” is something that one can inherit anyway, you either are God (from eternity) or you are not. And there is only One.
Yep, only one. Now it depends what you mean by “one”
. Hehe, I note how you deftly left out the whole “title”. I'll show you the versesDeu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Jos 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Not just “God” but “God of gods”. That belongs to YHWH alone.
Interesting. Alright Kejonn, prove that these all refer to the Father of Yeshua.Quote Yes, just one God. Then again, its either one God (YHWH) and one Lord (Yeshua) or one God (F,S,HS). Depends on your view, eh? I'm choosing the former.
I'll go with the later, makes sense of a lot more scripture….Quote Are you becoming a Binitarian?
No.Quote Ah, now we'll be getting into a new realm. If the Holy Spirit is a “person”, what makes you think it (he, she) is equal in all aspects to God and/or Yeshua? Now that will be fun to see you prove. That is one of the aspects of Trinity. I'll let you pass on being equal in substance since God is a spirit (but Yeshua is flesh and spirit), but the rest will have to be shown.
John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”Quote No disagreement here. But you'll still have to show where the Holy Spirit is God since it is not God's personal spirit.
Okay.Acts 5:3-4
3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4″While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.It's a no brainer, the Holy Spirit is God….
Quote I can handle 3 different entities. I just don't think they are equal to each other. And I have not been shown why anyone would consider the Holy Spirit “God”.
Equal in what sense? You never seem to offer specifics when you write that. Acts 5:3-4, 1 Cor 3:16-17 and Eph 4:6 all show that the Holy Spirit is God IMO.Quote Actually none. I'll freely admit that. But we don't have a clear indication of what is happening in this whole relationship either. The men that wrote the Bible were inspired, not super geniuses.
Thanks for being so candid. I agree that the identity/nature of the Holy Spirit is difficult to figure out. But I think that by comparing scripture with scripture it becomes clear.Quote You are correct. I'll be upfront and say I am still fine-tuning my theology. I think that is acceptable because it allows me to be open to the leading of the Spirit in my life. I had been on “cruise-control” for too much of my Christian life so here are still many things I will need to nail down. The Holy Spirit is more complex than some would think. But I know I have the essentials for my salvation. The rest is just knowing mre about God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. When I get a point where I know as much as I can while on earth about these, there is still a ton of stuff to learn.
Amen.Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
Did you not know the Spirit is the Spirit of God?
Do you know of any other beings whio are not ever one with their spirit?Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 24 2007,03:29) Quote (kejonn @ July 21 2007,15:59) Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Jos 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Not just “God” but “God of gods”. That belongs to YHWH alone.
Interesting. Alright Kejonn, prove that these all refer to the Father of Yeshua.
No definitive proof since the Son of God was never mentioned per se in a relationship to God in the OT. Show me anywhere in the OT where it says that the Messiah was to be the only begotten Son of God. Yet we see where Yeshua inherited the title “Lord of lords” and was given a new one, “King of kings”. However, if he is part of the Triune God, why is he never referred to as “God of gods”?Deu 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
1Ti 6:15 which He [Yeshua] will bring about at the proper time–He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.“See, “Lord of lords” but no “God of gods”. Methinks he cannot inherit this title because….well, you know doncha?
Quote Acts 5:3-4
3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4″While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Too simple, not enough evidence. It is well known among all, Trinitarians and non-Ts alike, that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians to help us communicate with God. Whatever the Holy Spirit knows, God knows.1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Rom 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
Besides, why is the separation necessary here if the Holy Spirit is God? Would the following not hold true for all of God?
Mat 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Quote 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
What is this verse supposed to tell us? This does not show anything except that our bodies house the Holy Spirit as well as our own.Quote Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.[/color]It's a no brainer, the Holy Spirit is God….
Are you saying that the one God, the Father of all, is Yeshua, the Father, and the HS? I knew the Father was the Father, but now Yeshua is the Father? The Holy Spirit is the Father?For Trinitarians, its a numb-brainer. In other words, numb the brain so you can accept that God Himself dwells within us. Again, why all the hub-bub about sending one personality to put a flesh tent to death only to send another personality of God? Why didn't God just bypass all of this and give us freely of His own personal spirit? He can do all things.
Quote Quote I can handle 3 different entities. I just don't think they are equal to each other. And I have not been shown why anyone would consider the Holy Spirit “God”.
Equal in what sense? You never seem to offer specifics when you write that. Acts 5:3-4, 1 Cor 3:16-17 and Eph 4:6 all show that the Holy Spirit is God IMO.
Not IMO. Those verses only convince those who are already convinced.Hi KJ,
You say
“No definitive proof since the Son of God was never mentioned per se in a relationship to God in the OT.”Ps2
Prov30
2 sam?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2007,14:20) Hi KJ,
You say
“No definitive proof since the Son of God was never mentioned per se in a relationship to God in the OT.”Ps2
Prov30
2 sam?
Nick,Those are “hindsight” passages. They do not really put forth a clear picture of who exactly the Son was to be. Not IMO anyway. But thanks!
Hi KJ,
Others tell me Ps 2 is prophetic.
Either way the Son is identified as the messiah king and the Jews would have been aware of that as the frequent use by the apostles, for various reasons, shows.Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,19:18) CB, You have some serious context problems with your theology. I showed you Luke 4:3, but let's just deal with the verses around 4:12 so you can (finally) see the context. Though I doubt you will (or will admit to it).
Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk 4:11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.In v9, again Satan calls him Son of God.
In v10-11, Satan does not refer to Yeshua as the one who shall give angels charge over Yeshua, but uses the pronoun “he”. This verse refers back to Psalm 91:11 and refers to YHWH. So Satan is saying to Yeshua that YHWH, the Father, will give His angels charge over Yeshua if he jumps. This is what he meant in v9 — if you are the Son of God, God will give His angels charge over Yeshua to rescue him.
in v12 Yeshua responds to the direct quote: Satan shall not tempt YHWH, a quote from Dt. 6:16.
Where do you live CB? If you live in the US, check your local neighborhood churches. There may be some vacation Bible schools going on. You could learn alot by attending one of those.
kejonn. It seems that you are way out of context.The Lord God Jehovah in Massah was the Lord God Jesus Christ, so back to the drawing board again for you.
The LORD (Jehovah) who led the Israelites through the wilderness, was Jesus who sent fiery serpents to bite the people because they tempted Him.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God
Yes! Jesus is the Lord Thy God who was tempted. Worship Him
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 29 2007,09:31) Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,19:18) CB, You have some serious context problems with your theology. I showed you Luke 4:3, but let's just deal with the verses around 4:12 so you can (finally) see the context. Though I doubt you will (or will admit to it).
Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk 4:11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.In v9, again Satan calls him Son of God.
In v10-11, Satan does not refer to Yeshua as the one who shall give angels charge over Yeshua, but uses the pronoun “he”. This verse refers back to Psalm 91:11 and refers to YHWH. So Satan is saying to Yeshua that YHWH, the Father, will give His angels charge over Yeshua if he jumps. This is what he meant in v9 — if you are the Son of God, God will give His angels charge over Yeshua to rescue him.
in v12 Yeshua responds to the direct quote: Satan shall not tempt YHWH, a quote from Dt. 6:16.
Where do you live CB? If you live in the US, check your local neighborhood churches. There may be some vacation Bible schools going on. You could learn alot by attending one of those.
kejonn. It seems that you are way out of context.The Lord God Jehovah in Massah was the Lord God Jesus Christ, so back to the drawing board again for you.
Show me once instance of “Lord God Jesus Christ” in the Bible and I will believe in the Trinity. Until then, you have just made your own title.Quote The LORD (Jehovah) who led the Israelites through the wilderness, was Jesus who sent fiery serpents to bite the people because they tempted Him. 1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Some manuscripts have “Christos” and some have “kyrios”. So this verse is already in question for application to Trinitarian thinking.As far as “Lord”, this is not the first time that “Lord” in the NT was confused with “LORD” in the OT. In fact, the Septaugint uses “Lord” instead of “LORD” as used in the Masoretic to replace YHWH in English. So we can not be certain that “Lord” here is referring to Yeshua in 1 Cor or YHWH. Since it was a reference to an OT event, it leans towards YHWH. So this is a very vague passage when you try to use it in defense of the Trinity.
Quote Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God
Yes! Jesus is the Lord Thy God who was tempted. Worship Him
Yes, Yeshua was tempted. But if he was speaking of himself here, why did he not quote this upon the first instance of temptation? Or the 2nd? No, he did not do so until Satan mentioned OT scripture that mentions YHWH (“He” in Luke 4:10).Also, look at these verses:
Luk 4:6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
Luk 4:7 “Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.”
Luk 4:8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' “Two things here. 1) If Yeshua was God, and not just the Son of God, why would Satan offer this? 2) If Yeshua was God, and not the Son of God, why would he not demand that Satan worship him (Yeshua)? Instead, Yeshua showed his allegiance in verse 8 — that he would not worship Satan but the “LORD your God”.
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