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Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) Look at the way this verse is worded. Yeshua's spirit is not indwelling us in this instance but communicating to our spirit via the Holy Spirit to exclaim “Abba Father”. Its a specific action, and a one of praise from Father to Son. Yeshua is showing us one of the many ways to honor his Father.
riiiight…so when Paul wrote “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts” He didn't mean the literal Spirit of God's literal Son into our literal hearts? I see.
Hi Is 1.18,
You say
'The designation “Jesus Christ” just makes it plainer still that Yeshua's personal Spirit really is IN us. In fact if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).'
The personal spirit of Christ left him at Calvary.There is only one Holy Spirit
Are you proposing there is three or four with one spirit being one of the “persons in God”Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,15:59) Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) First off, you starting out with a false assumption. You said “why is the Holy Spirit called”. In these verse, the Holy Spirit is not being called Christ. I see no reference to this at all, how do you? In fact, this is but a continuance of the verse I quoted earlier Jhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
This happens via the indwelliing of the Holy Spirit.
Noting carefully the underlined words, compare these passages:Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.….with this one:
John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.Do you see it kejonn?
Yes, I saw the underlined words. I will reciprocateJhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Jhn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
I know what you are getting at. The Spirit is the Spirit of God as in the triune God, right? By you assertion, John 17:21 says we are part of the Trinity: “that they also may be in Us“, as does John 14:20, “you in Me“.
What denomination believes that we will be gods?
The Holy Spirit is our common connection with God and Yeshua. Our spirits communicate with the spirits of God and Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,16:28) Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) Look at the way this verse is worded. Yeshua's spirit is not indwelling us in this instance but communicating to our spirit via the Holy Spirit to exclaim “Abba Father”. Its a specific action, and a one of praise from Father to Son. Yeshua is showing us one of the many ways to honor his Father.
riiiight…so when Paul wrote “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts” He didn't mean the literal Spirit of God's literal Son into our literal hearts? I see.
See my prior post. Riiiighhht…
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,16:19) Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) Ditto. Did you think Jesus Christ was different from just Christ above?
Obviously not. What a silly question that was. The designation “Jesus Christ” just makes it plainer still that Yeshua's personal Spirit really is IN us. In fact if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).
Isaiah,Because there is only one Spirit, and you are saying that that Spirit is the Spirit of Christ…….am I to believe that the “Spirit of Christ” and the “Spirit of God” are one and the same? Sorry if this question has been answered somewhere else.
Okay, so when Yeshua proclaimed that the the Spirit of truth “abides with you and will be in you” was He speaking a literal indwelling? And how do you know for certain that when the exact same language is used of the Spirit of Christ it is not meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically?
Kejonn, your view of the Holy Spirit is a little hard to pin down. It almost seems to mirror the Watchtowers “active force” view. Can you tell me exactly what/who the Spirit is in your opinion?
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,17:23) Isaiah, Because there is only one Spirit, and you are saying that that Spirit is the Spirit of Christ…….am I to believe that the “Spirit of Christ” and the “Spirit of God” are one and the same? Sorry if this question has been answered somewhere else.
Hi Not3,
I'll post my thoughts tonight when the kids are in bed (3 hrs time).Cheers
Thanks, Isaiah. That will be about 1:30 a.m. my time – so this kid will be to bed too!
But I will check back tomorrow for your answer.How old are your kids? We have two (ages 9.5 and 8). These are some of the best days of our lives, huh? When we're old, these are the days we'll look back on as the “Good Old Days” I'm convinced.
IS,
The Holy Spirit is really as hard to really figure out as the concept of the Word. I don't think we'll know exactly what it is about until we get home. But your assertions come from a Trinitarian mindset that must believe that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune God. It shares a mutual essence and nature with Yeshua and the Father. If that is the case, what do we do with the verses I listed that spoke about us being in Yeshua in one instance and us being in both of them mutually in another? Like I said, now you have a whole new facet to deal with.
Jhn 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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Rom 1:9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,
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Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
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1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Cr 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
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1Cr 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
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1Cr 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
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1Cr 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
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Phl 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
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Phl 2:1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,Phl 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
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Phl 2:20 For I have no one else of kindred spirit who will genuinely be concerned for your welfare.
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Col 2:5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
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1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while–in person, not in spirit–were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.
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2Ti 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
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1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
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1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
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1Jo 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
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Rev 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.
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Rev 19:10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,17:26) Okay, so when Yeshua proclaimed that the the Spirit of truth “abides with you and will be in you” was He speaking a literal indwelling? And how do you know for certain that when the exact same language is used of the Spirit of Christ it is not meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically? Kejonn, your view of the Holy Spirit is a little hard to pin down. It almost seems to mirror the Watchtowers “active force” view. Can you tell me exactly what/who the Spirit is in your opinion?
The Holy Spirit, in my opinion, is an extension of the Father Himself. It is what allows us to know His leading, the leading of His Son, and it in turn reads our thoughts and desires and communicates them to the Father through the Son. As I've posted earlier, I would view it as the central nervous system of the body of Christ. Remember, we are a body of many parts, with Yeshua as head, but the Father is in turn the head of Yeshua. Well, a body has to have a nervous system to allow the various parts of the body to communicate with the head. And the head does the leading.The hand cannot do anything unless the head tells it to. So we should only act on the leadings of our head, Christ. But a hand cannot guide the head, just as we cannot guide Christ.
The head and nervous system makes sure the body works in beautiful synchronicity. That is why the Bible speaks of unity in the body. If my left leg wants to go right and my left leg wants to go left, no progress. Of course, in a real human body they have no choice, you get the picture. That is why the analogy of the body is so brilliant when speaking of the body of Christ.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,17:40) Thanks, Isaiah. That will be about 1:30 a.m. my time – so this kid will be to bed too! But I will check back tomorrow for your answer.How old are your kids? We have two (ages 9.5 and 8). These are some of the best days of our lives, huh? When we're old, these are the days we'll look back on as the “Good Old Days” I'm convinced.
My kids are 6 yrs, 4 yrs and 5 months, all boys! I'll email you some photos….Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,19:02) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,17:40) Thanks, Isaiah. That will be about 1:30 a.m. my time – so this kid will be to bed too! But I will check back tomorrow for your answer.How old are your kids? We have two (ages 9.5 and 8). These are some of the best days of our lives, huh? When we're old, these are the days we'll look back on as the “Good Old Days” I'm convinced.
My kids are 6 yrs, 4 yrs and 5 months, all boys! I'll email you some photos….
MY THREE SONS! Remember that show? I'm not sure if you are American or Canadian or NZ? But that show was pretty popular when I was growing up.I'm sure you're a great Dad, Isaiah! I'd love to see some pictures. I will also send you some of my darlings.
I'm off to bed…..goodnight all.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,19:10)
I'm sure you're a great Dad, Isaiah!Huh? He's probably a scary dad, what with that scarf over his face, headband, wild grayish white hair, big loop earring and single manacle!
Just a play on the avatar!
Yes, I would wager that IS would be a good dad as well. He is very spiritually discerning judging by his posts, even if we do see the differing sides of the Trinity. Anyone like that would likely be a good, strong but kind spiritual leader in his home.
Kejonn
You say…
Quote
Huh? Ignatius said it, not me. I don't think Yeshua is God. He may be “God” in the sense that Moses was “God” to pharaoh, but he is not the one an only true God, the Father. Even Ignatius said so.Show me where Ignatius says the Father is the “one and only true God” at the exclusion of Jesus.
Besides the fact, what you say about his writings make no sense for Ignatius like John and Paul could have used another word to describe Jesus as “a god” or “a divine being” or a “god to themselves”.
Why didn’t they use one of these words instead of “Theos”…
“chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”
or
“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power.
“theotes, Col 2:9”
or
“theiotes” Rom 1:20″
Instead he uses the word “Theos” which is only ascribed to the living Father and Jesus in a true sense in the New Testament!
You say…
Quote
Scripture please. I've never heard that. He came to show us God by his words and actions, and then to die on the cross for our salvation. Scripture to show that Yeshua is the only mediator between God and man? 
Again, there are no other “Elohims or Theos” found in NT scriptures as mediators between God other than Yeshua! Please show me where. There are no more “Elohims” of the OT that stood between God and man! Therefore “Theos” in a true sense only applys to the living Father and the Son as God in Jn 1:1.
So the question is back at you kejonn, scripture please?
You say…
Quote
Ignatius said as much. But he also said that the Father was the one and only true God, the Almighty. You know, same Almighty as YHWH in the OT. Another one of those fallacious arguments. I am starting to think that you purposely are using subterfuge in your post. Yes Ignatius did say Jesus was God in the flesh, yet you speak of YHWH as if they are not the same. YHWH is often refering to both the Father and Yeshua the Word that was with God and was God.
You have your non-Trinitarian glasses on and seek to spiritualize and explain away the scriptures that clearly show Yeshua as the God of the OT that appeared to Moses and others.
Listen to some of these teachings with an open heart and mind…
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
You never addressed the scriptures in Zech 10 and 14. YHWHs feet shall stand upon the mount of olives. Not to mention John speaks of Yeshua as being the one pierced in Zech 10 and John also speaks of Yeshua as being the Lord who Isaiah saw in Isa 6:1-5.
You should take those filters off and Look at scripture by scripture as a whole, not just Isolated scriptures that you say claims the Father as the true God exclusive of Yeshua.
Look at scripture in the light of scripture.
Example…
In the light of John 1:1-3 and John 20:28 and 1 Tim 3:16 and Titus 2:13, Heb 1:1-3 Heb 1:8-10, Col 1:14-17, Zech 12 and 14, Isa 9:6 Etc Etc..
look at 1 John 5:20…
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.You can read this any way cant you? But not in the light of the rest of scriptures!
How about Titus 2:13 NASB
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,This scripture is Unambiguous! The Grandville Sharp rule confirms it!
I said…
Quote Please show me scripture where any being was considered to be “God” in the flesh! You said…
Quote
None was. No other man was born of the Holy Spirit and called the Son of God. What is your point?Evasive!!!
Refer to above! John used the word “Theos”. Very significant!
I said…
Quote Also while you are at it, how about a New Testament scripture where the word “Theos” in a true or positive sense is ascribed to a “living” being in his time other than the Father and Jesus! You say…
Quote
You are running low on excuses. This is one of the most desperate pleas I've seen from you. There was no more representatives of God in the NT. The Apostles carried out what Yeshua started, they were not prophets or judges. They are as we are today: Christians who had the honor to spread the Gospel.Subterfuge again! !!!Diversion!!! !!!Smoke Screen!!! !!!illusive!!!
You didn’t answer the question again!
BTW Were any of the Apostles that carried out what Yeshua started called “Theos” in any place? How about an Angel? Or a king? Or a Prophet? You say…
Quote
And BTW, show me where the Bible calls Yeshua God in a manner unlike Ignatius. Since Ignatius made these statements “being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son” and “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father“, do so in a manner where “one and only true God” or “one God, the Almighty” is said of Yeshua.You are getting good at subterfuge, for earlier you quoted the first part of Ignatius quote as…
Quote “On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His *Word*, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance *begotten by* divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.679” Then you left the last part of the quote off and put the little article “and” between the other quote…
Quote “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father“, do so in a manner where “one and only true God” or “one God, the Almighty” is said of Yeshua A little slieght of hand there hey chap? Maybe you could show me the source of your verse so I can look at its context.
This is what many do with 1 Cor 8.
Lets look at the antagonist view of their model scripture which is highly distorted…
1 Cor 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, “the Father”, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one “Lord Jesus Christ”, by whom are all things, and we by him.The distorted view of this scripture is obviously the foundational scripture for all Arians.
Even though there is no implication here that Paul is apposed to the deity of Christ.
They think that this scripture is saying there is “one God”, the Father, therefore Jesus is not God.
But lets apply that logic to the whole verse, “there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ” therefore God is not Lord.
This conclusion is ludicrous, since we know that God is Lord, so the invalid inference applied to this verse is evident.
Now lets look at the context…
Corinth was at this time a pagan city. Paganism and polytheism was the order of the day. But the Apostle Paul does an amazing thing in these verses. First he states in vrs 4…
“That there is none other God but one.”
Somehow, those on this sight seem to always leave this one out!
By calling Jesus “a god” but not in the sense that Trinitarians say. Or they allude to John 10, but they cant like Ignatius bring themselves to saying he is a god, or “god” or a divine being and yet they wont say he was just a man. So I ask what is he to them? So they say he is the Son of God! And I say what does that mean we are all Sons! Is he a mere man like us in everyway? If he is why the virgin birth? What is he? I get no answer, just he is not the God he was with!
Makes me wonder if they know Jesus at all?
Then in vrs 5 Paul speaks of “gods many and lords many”. Then emphatically declares “to US there is but one God”.
Then in vrs 6 without hesitation Paul glossed over “God” with the Father, and “Lord” (Kurios) with Jesus Christ, and then in the same breath ascribes a God like attribute to each…
“God” is the Father, “from whom are all things and we to him,” and the “Lord” is Jesus, “through whom are all things and we through him.”
If Paul was defending Unitarianism here against the polytheistic views of the Corinthians who believed in many gods and lords, he wouldn’t have mentioned Jesus as “Kurios” in the same breath, and ascribing a God like attribute to him, “through whom are all things and we through him.” .
Unless of course he knew and believed that Jesus the Word/God is Divinely and Uniqually ONE with the Father.
In fact compare this…
1 Cor 8:6 and one “Lord Jesus Christ”, by whom are all things, and we by him.With Pauls quote in Rom 11:36…
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Look at the context of Romans 8 and tell me who Romans 8:36 is speaking of!
Can you see the language my friend?
Paul as a true Monothiest who called himself a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew that Jesus was God in the flesh.
Or else he would had not introduced Jesus as the Creator the one who laid the foundations of the earth, knowing full well the scriptures he had taught that “God alone created the heavens, by himself, non other beside him.
6 But to us there is but one God, “the Father”, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one “Lord Jesus Christ”, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Hi W,
If Jesus was God in the flesh
who was the One
IN HIM
reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5.19]Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,19:02) My kids are 6 yrs, 4 yrs and 5 months, all boys! I'll email you some photos….
Are your 3 sons, one being?OK, I am just being funny. I have one son but I think another child would be great. We would like to have one more child. I would like a girl, but another boy would be great too.
Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,19:26) Huh? He's probably a scary dad, what with that scarf over his face, headband, wild grayish white hair, big loop earring and single manacle!
It's my best side! I have my moments as a parent, as I'm sure everyone does. Do you have kids kejonn?Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,19:10) MY THREE SONS! Remember that show? I'm not sure if you are American or Canadian or NZ? But that show was pretty popular when I was growing up.
Yeah I vaguely remember that show (in New Zealand).Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 20 2007,17:28) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,17:23) Isaiah, Because there is only one Spirit, and you are saying that that Spirit is the Spirit of Christ…….am I to believe that the “Spirit of Christ” and the “Spirit of God” are one and the same? Sorry if this question has been answered somewhere else.
Hi Not3,
I'll post my thoughts tonight when the kids are in bed (3 hrs time).Cheers
Correction, I'll try to submit that post tomorrow in the Holy Spirit thread, and also answer your post kejonn (in this thread).Be well.
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