- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten. (23).
What is meant by “proper”?Quote Athenagoras (ca. 175 A.D)
And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the knowledge and Word of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself,
Interesting. Here stated that God HAD THE LOGOS IN HIMSELF. How can God have a preexistent son in himself?Quote Now the energy of the Lord has a relationship to the Almighty, and the Son is, so to speak, an energy of the Father. (Stromata, Book VII, 2).
Also interesting, refering to the Son – “an energy of the Father.”These are quotes taken from t8's post on the early Christian Fathers.
Quote (kejonn @ July 19 2007,17:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,17:08)
The key to your claim that because he teaches against Polytheism means that he teaches against the trinity is the fact that he claims Jesus as the Creator!Plain and simple.
Ignatius like John who discipled him believed Jesus to be YHWH in the flesh.
WJ,I was wondering where you kept coming up with this “Jesus the Creator” stuff. Now I see, Epistle to the Tarsians. This Epistles was listed under the spurious writings of Ignatius. That is, from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xiii.html
We formerly stated that eight out of the fifteen Epistles bearing the name of Ignatius are now universally admitted to be spurious. None of them are quoted or referred to by any ancient writer previous to the sixth century. The style, moreover, in which they are written, so different from that of the other Ignatian letters, and allusions which they contain to heresies and ecclesiastical arrangements of a much later date than that of their professed author, render it perfectly certain that they are not the authentic production of the illustrious bishop of Antioch.
In that to the Tarsians there is found a plain allusion to the Sabellian heresy, which did not arise till after the middle of the third century. In the Epistle to the Antiochians there is an enumeration of various Church officers, who were certainly unknown at the period when Ignatius lived. The Epistle to Hero plainly alludes to Manichæan errors, and could not therefore have been written before the third century. There are equally decisive proofs of spuriousness to be found in the Epistle to the Philippians, such as the references it contains to the Patripassian heresy originated by Praxeas in the latter part of the second century, and the ecclesiastical feasts, etc., of which it makes mention. The letter to Maria Cassobolita is of a very peculiar style, utterly alien from that of the other Epistles ascribed to Ignatius. And it is sufficient simply to glance at the short Epistles to St. John and the Virgin Mary, in order to see that they carry the stamp of imposture on their front; and, indeed, no sooner were they published than by almost universal consent they were rejected.
So to refer to the Tarsians Epistle is grave error. If you want to use Ignatius' writings, at least stay within those that the scholars feel were actually written by him.
As to your other part of the post, it was off base and stuff already covered many, many times on this board.
kejonnWhat da ya know we have another Trinitarian that thinks like Ignatius!!!
By the way you do believe that all things were made by him and for him dont you?
He laid the foundations of the world you know!
Hebrews 1:10
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2007,17:34) Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,23:38) WJ and Is, Yes, I did. What do I need to address? I provided the verse that shows the old adage: “what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine”. I could get detailed and provide lessons on many of the passages, and in particular Romans 8:9, but in the end the Holy Spirit originates from the Father but is shared by Yeshau, the monogenes Son who inherited all things from the Father. The only thing Yeshua did not inherit was certain rights and titles that he could never have, like being God and therefore being “God of gods”.
I'm sorry if my answer does not satisfy you. In fact, if you look again at Romans 8:9, you would see that with the separation of “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” in the same verse, you would realize that both Yeshua and the Father influence you through their roles. Would “One God” need to make such distinction? Why the need to have Yeshua and God's Spirit, both the same but with each contributing a little different essence to our lives be necessary?
There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again.
Here is the lesson of Romans 8:9-11 – Having the Spirit of God means we are not in the flesh. Having the Spirit of Christ allows us to be more like Yeshua. We can't be like God because God was never flesh and never faced temptation and overcame. Yeshua did and he is our kindred, our brother, and the head of our collective body because he shares our humanity.
Peace!
I will address this post point by point, but I want clarification on something first.When we read “Spirit of Christ” (or a synonym) in the NT should we understand this to mean Yeshua's personal Spirit?
Thanks.
Kejonn,
Did you miss this post? Awaiting your reply.Thanks
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,18:15) Kejonn
That’s the question you have not answered?
Huh?Quote Scripture teaches we can not approach God but through The mediator between God and man the man Jesus. What does it mean through Jesus?
It means through the humanity of Yeshua. We are human, God is not. Where are you falling down on this one?Quote Does it mean through Jesus Spirit. So the Father is a Spirit and Jesus has a Spirit.
Point? Are we not all one in the Spirit? Does our spirit not bear witness with Yeshua's spirit? Doe this not occur because we all share the Holy Spirit?Quote Well, again there is no way to cut it that that means that we have received 2 Spirits!
You seem to be confused. I never said that. We have only the Holy Spirit and Yeshua can communicate with us through the Holy Spirit we share with him.Quote Now when I make that statement then the “Unitarians” “Henotheist” and “Arians” put on their filters and say see Jesus cant be God because he is a man. “How can he be the God he was with?” As if to say it is not possible that God can be ontologically one with the Word and the Holy Spirit!
Yeshua flesh, God not. –sigh–Luk 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Quote The scriptures say there is One True God, but not at the exclusion of the Son.
What Bible do you use?Jhn 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
Jhn 17:2 even as You [Father] gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You [Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.You're right, not “one true God” but “only true God”. Stronger word, only.
Quote We don’t, but we see Comforter, Holy Spirit, Finger of God, Spirit of truth, Spirit of God, Spirit of Jesus, Spirit of him…Etc, Etc.
Cool, a finger is now a person. Still no Spirit of Spirit. –sigh–Quote Its fallacious to say because the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name that he cannot be a person, or that he dosnt exist as another! The Father dosnt have a personal name that we know does he?
Sure does. Father's name is YHWH, Son's name is Yeshua. Holy Spirit, no name. Ooops.Quote You didn’t answer my post on the following scriptures. Please tell me how you read these and not see “Another”!!! Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: 1. for he shall not speak of himself; but 2. whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: 3. for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 4. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.1. Does the Father speak of himself?
No. Guess He's in charge then. What's the point of this exercise?Quote 2. Does the Father speak only what he hears?
No again. Are you rambling now?Quote 3. Does the Father take from Jesus and show it to us? 4. Does he give all things to Jesus then take from Jesus and shew to us!
Is the Father subservient to Jesus?
I'm curious, but I don't see how these absurd questions relate to the verse you quoted. Are you running out of defenses now and moving on to the ludicrous?Quote Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire! Imagine that! Can a mere man do that?
Just as a man can call down fire and consume a water soaked altar and all of the prophets of Baal at the same time. Just as a man can split the Red Sea. IS there a point to this? What one man can do through the power of YHWH, all men can do if He so wills it.Quote Men try to understand the nature of the spirit comparing him to our own personal being. Therefore men would put limitations on him and in so doing put limitations on God.
No, we just don't exalt others to the place reserved of God. We can honor the Son and the Father without calling the Son God. Whoever called the Holy Spirit God (besides Trinitarians)?Quote The Holy Spirits ministry is not to speak of himself, but to serve the Father and Jesus, For the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
And? Preaching to th choir with this statement.Quote Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the
throne of God and of the Lamb.This distinction is made between God and the Lamb because Yeshua is also forever God in the flesh!
Your words, not mine nor the Bible's. Well, the part after the Revelation quote that is
. Speaking of RevelationRev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Which God gave Yeshua the Revelation? Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2007,18:52)
Kejonn,
Did you miss this post? Awaiting your reply.Thanks
Probably did miss it
.Yeshua's personal spirit does not indwell us. The Holy Spirit does. But our spirit can communicate with his spirit via the shared Holy Spirit. How else can we as the body communicate effectively with the head of the body? The Holy Spirit can be likened to the nervous system of the body.
By the same token, does the following verse mean our spirit indwells Yeshua or God?
Jhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Actually, this is the key verse to know how it all works:
Eph 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Okay, thanks. My next question is – why is the Holy Spirit called:-
1. “Christ”:
Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.2. “Jesus Christ”:
2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?3. “Spirit of His Son”:
Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”Why?
And I'll pose this question to both yourself and WJ, to see who has the most reasonable answer:
How can we reconcile these two verses:
John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.My money's on WJ, just quietly….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2007,18:52) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2007,17:34) Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,23:38) WJ and Is, Yes, I did. What do I need to address? I provided the verse that shows the old adage: “what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine”. I could get detailed and provide lessons on many of the passages, and in particular Romans 8:9, but in the end the Holy Spirit originates from the Father but is shared by Yeshau, the monogenes Son who inherited all things from the Father. The only thing Yeshua did not inherit was certain rights and titles that he could never have, like being God and therefore being “God of gods”.
I'm sorry if my answer does not satisfy you. In fact, if you look again at Romans 8:9, you would see that with the separation of “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” in the same verse, you would realize that both Yeshua and the Father influence you through their roles. Would “One God” need to make such distinction? Why the need to have Yeshua and God's Spirit, both the same but with each contributing a little different essence to our lives be necessary?
There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again.
Here is the lesson of Romans 8:9-11 – Having the Spirit of God means we are not in the flesh. Having the Spirit of Christ allows us to be more like Yeshua. We can't be like God because God was never flesh and never faced temptation and overcame. Yeshua did and he is our kindred, our brother, and the head of our collective body because he shares our humanity.
Peace!
I will address this post point by point, but I want clarification on something first.When we read “Spirit of Christ” (or a synonym) in the NT should we understand this to mean Yeshua's personal Spirit?
Thanks.
Kejonn,
Did you miss this post? Awaiting your reply.Thanks
BTW, I haven't forgotten to reply to your post, I had my weekly Bible study tonight so i'll make time to do it in the weekend.Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2007,19:15) Okay, thanks. My next question is – why is the Holy Spirit called:- 1. “Christ”:
Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.2. “Jesus Christ”:
2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?3. “Spirit of His Son”:
Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”Why?
Hi Is 1.18,
Because the Spirit was GIVEN to Christ.
God gives to Christ and Christ GIVES to us.
That is why he is the one who baptises us in the Spirit.Not only that the word usage is applied retrospectively in 1 Peter 1.10f
Christ died and his own spirit left him but he was alive in the Spirit and is eternally.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,18:51)
kejonnWhat da ya know we have another Trinitarian that thinks like Ignatius!!!
By the way you do believe that all things were made by him and for him dont you?
He laid the foundations of the world you know!
Hebrews 1:10
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278
Uh…no. I think any logical person who doesn't see Trinity in every verse in the Bible and any other writing could see that Ignatius was NOT a Trinitarian. Not when he says “being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son” and “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father“. Had you presented your doctrine to Ignatius, he would have accused you of being polytheistic and unbelieving. And I would agree with him on the former
.As far as the Hebrews 1:10 verse, I am not one who currently adheres to the thought that Yeshua did not exist in some manner prior to his earthly birth. So you're barking up the wrong tree on that one
.I've seen some try to explain this verse away and I was scratching my head thinking “huh”? Some say it refers to the new heaven and earth due to the context of the chapter. But verses 11-12 kinda blows that out of the water. The new heaven and new earth will perish?!?
Some also try to say that the Father was being spoken of in v10 because of the Greek and the fact that v10 ends with “THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD”. I don't know anything about Greek, but I know enough about English to say “no no”.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2007,19:15) Okay, thanks. My next question is – why is the Holy Spirit called:- 1. “Christ”:
Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
First off, you starting out with a false assumption. You said “why is the Holy Spirit called”. In these verse, the Holy Spirit is not being called Christ. I see no reference to this at all, how do you? In fact, this is but a continuance of the verse I quoted earlierJhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
This happens via the indwelliing of the Holy Spirit.
Quote 2. “Jesus Christ”: 2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?
Ditto. Did you think Jesus Christ was different from just Christ above?Quote 3. “Spirit of His Son”: Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”Why?
Look at the way this verse is worded. Yeshua's spirit is not indwelling us in this instance but communicating to our spirit via the Holy Spirit to exclaim “Abba Father”. Its a specific action, and a one of praise from Father to Son. Yeshua is showing us one of the many ways to honor his Father.Spirit is of the same substance. It takes spirit to communicate to spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit is like our central nervous system in the body of Christ. The head of the body, Yeshua communicates to our spirit with his spirit using the mutual indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And he gets his leading from his Father, his head. These verse sum up my thoughts, I think
1Cr 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Cr 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Cr 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Cr 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 19 2007,19:21) And I'll pose this question to both yourself and WJ, to see who has the most reasonable answer: How can we reconcile these two verses:
John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.My money's on WJ, just quietly….
Your money is on WJ because he'll give a Trinitarian answer. Quite a subjective “bet” wouldn't you say
.Here's all of you answers
Jhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Jhn 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jhn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Really, I don't don't know why you guys don't look this stuff up for yourselves
. There are many online tools, biblegateway.com, bible.cc, blueletterbible.com…Yes, and you did have to point out that there is one God and Father of all, eh?
. Unless you want to sum up verses 4-6 by saying we are part of the Godhead too .Nick,
Perhaps. But I'm of the opinion that they likely think the same of those on the other side of the issue. It was relatively easy for me to start seeing the fallacies in the Trinity because it was rarely brought up. Whenever I heard references to it, I always had this strange feeling that it was somehow wrong.
Hi KJ,
Trinity is not an issue but a nonevent.
It is a major distraction to those who wish to find what the bible does say
but since the bible says nothing about any trinity it is a dead horse they flog.Quote (kejonn @ July 19 2007,16:53) Looking through Ignatius' writings, he often refers to Yeshua as “God”. I put it in quotation marks because I wonder of it should be capitalized. But I also not that he calls the Father the Almighty God in some places and true God in others. He never uses Almighty or true God to refer to Yeshua. Yet as you can see above, he warns against polytheism by saying there is “one and only true God, His Father”. Weird indeed. If I had my guess — and it helps straighten out “My Lord and My God” by Thomas — I'd say that he is referring to Yeshua as God in the same fashion that YHWH told Moses he would be Pharaoh's God (Ex 7:1). How else could you reconcile Ignatius' warning of polytheism by Yeshua making known “the one and only true God, His Father”?
Thoughts? Or was Ignatius just some wacked out, double-minded dude?
I personally think that many including translators don't understand that 'theos' and 'elohim' are not words used exclusively for the Almighty, but are also used in reference to men and angels.Probably the biggest reason that people cannot see it is because of bias, predefined beliefs, and not checking out everything they are told.
Mass delusions are possible. God makes those who do not love the truth to believe the/a lie. He respects their free will and gives them what they want.
Those who don't believe in God often embrace the theory of evolution and others who have a form of godliness and tradition, tend to go for ready made creeds. This is a generalisation of course.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2007,10:42) Hi KJ,
Their mission is apparently not to find truth
but to prove themselves right.
Is this necessary? What does a post like this achieve?, other than to aggavate….Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) First off, you starting out with a false assumption. You said “why is the Holy Spirit called”. In these verse, the Holy Spirit is not being called Christ. I see no reference to this at all, how do you? In fact, this is but a continuance of the verse I quoted earlier Jhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
This happens via the indwelliing of the Holy Spirit.
Noting carefully the underlined words, compare these passages:Romans 8:10
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Colossians 1:27
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Colossians 3:11
11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.….with this one:
John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.Do you see it kejonn?
Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,00:14) Ditto. Did you think Jesus Christ was different from just Christ above?
Obviously not. What a silly question that was. The designation “Jesus Christ” just makes it plainer still that Yeshua's personal Spirit really is IN us. In fact if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
