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Quote (OneLadyBand @ July 19 2007,02:32) On another topic:
Does anyone else have trouble with the words on the screen keeping up with your typing? I constantly have to go back and make corrections where letters are left out, becaue it just can't seem to keep up. Irritating. : )
I haven't noticed. Perhaps you are a much faster typer than me though. Do you have the same problem in other apps?Quote (kejonn @ July 18 2007,23:52) No CB, I get my Gospel from here: 
I do not get my Gospel from
Nice one!kejohn:
John was speaking in 1:7. No reason to assume that this verse belongs to Yeshua, especially since “Almighty” was never attributed to him.Mary>>>Heartily agreed that the term “Almighty” has NEVER been applied to Jesus Christ. He is “Mighty” bute is NOT “All-mighty.”
KEJ>Quote
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last?
“I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
Your base verse fell short of proving Yeshua, the rest merely affirm God. Thanks.Mary>>Agreed again that the title of Alpha and Omega belongs to God the Father Almighty. But, as in many terms used of various people in scripture (the term “god” being one, having been applied to others besides Almighty God, mos notably to angels and to men) the term Alpha and Omega can have different meaning when applied to one being that it does when applied to another.
KEJ:Quote
Turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Is “first and last” a title? Some would have us think so, but can it be something else?Mary>>If you look u the Greek words that appear in all those verses, you willfind them different. The words “first and last” are different words than “Alpha and Omega.” Alpha and Omega have SYMBOLIC meaning simply because those two words happen to be the first letter and the last one of the Gk. alphabet. It is similar to us comparing “A and B” and saying it's te same as “first and last,” when it is not the same AT ALL.
KEJ>1 Cor 15:45 – So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL ” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Beyond that, since it is well established that Yeshua existed as the Word with God, “first and the last” can also be applied to him.Quote
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Are you still using this verse to try to prove Yeshua is God? The winepress belongs to God, Yeshua is the one who is trampling the “bad grapes”. Please read carefully.
Quote
Isa 9:6 also describes Jesus as The mighty God
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Almighty > Mighty. Besides, “his name shall be called” means he will have a name that reflects this. Since Yeshua has not any of these in his name, we haven't seen the person spoke of in Isaiah 9:6.
Mary>>>Yeshua WOULD BE called those things in Isaiah's futue. Yes, the world has seen that one who would carry those names, but those names would be applied to him after he accomplished certain things of God's will.
But,that is getting away from whether or not God exists triune.: )
Quote (OneLadyBand @ July 19 2007,02:32)
On another topic:
Does anyone else have trouble with the words on the screen keeping up with your typing? I constantly have to go back and make corrections where letters are left out, becaue it just can't seem to keep up. Irritating. : )I haven't noticed. Perhaps you are a much faster typer than me though. Do you have the same problem in other apps?
Hi, T8:
I am a touch typer,that is true. This is a brand new keyboard, and works very well other places online. I have AOL, and it works good on their mesage boards.
Dunno what's the prob.
T8
If you want to continue with this I am happy to oblige!
You say…
Quote
you quote this guy Ignatius and say that he was discipled by John and what he says is significant, and this same man calls you a servant of Satan because you say that Jesus is the Most High God, the very thing that he condemns in his teaching.Think about the implications here. His words condemn you, Isaiah, and CultB. He calls you guys Ministers of Satan
NOTE: that I am not calling you this myself.No, this same man does not call Trinitarians ministers of satan, but in fact says that those who say Jesus is not “God” are ministers of satan.
Lets look closer then.
You quote…
Quote (emphasis mine)
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).I think he is addressing two heresys of his day.
1. Unitarians – “that He is not the Son the Creator. Who else is Creator but God t8?
Unitarians believe Jesus is not God in any sense and therefore he is not the creator, nor do they believe he pre-existed. They believe that the creation was done by God with the Son in mind through the thought or plan of God!
2. Oneness – “that He is Himself God over all”. That Jesus is himself the Father! Jesus only!
He clarifys this in the context of his writings…
Quote And that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”. And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (To the Tarsians, IV). And that He Himself is not God over all, *and the Father*, but His Son, He says, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. And again, “When all things shall be subjected unto Him, then shall He also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” Wherefore it is One [God] who put all things under, and who is all in all, and another [His Son] to whom they were subdued, who also Himself, along with all other things, becomes subject [to the former]. (To the Tarsians, V; cf. 1 Cor 15:24-28).
How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me. (To the Tarsians, VI).
He is clarifying his postion that Jesus is both God and man!
In these passages you have 2 options…
1. Ignatius is saying that Jesus the Word is a god!
2. Ignatius is saying that Jesus is true God!Of course a closer look at the context shows that option 2 is the only option!
The reason why number 2 is the only option…
Ignatius is a Monotheist
Yet Ignatius says in the above…* God the Word, who also created all things.
• God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*
Notice t8 that Ignatius says Jesus created all things, confirming Heb 1:10.
He also said earlier…
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born only in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator.t8, isn’t this what you believe, that Jesus is not the creator, but that the Father created everything “through him”. You believe that Jesus was just an empty vessel and that he did not lay the foundation of the world according to Heb 1:10.
It looks like Ignatius is saying that you and NH are ministers of satan! I am not saying that, but Ignatius is.
Is not the Creator God over all? So when he says…
“others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all.”, he is meaning Jesus is not God over the Father.
For he also says…
And that He Himself is not God over all, *and the Father*
Ignatius claims Jesus is the creator. Do you think t8 that he is in opposition to the Hebrew scriptures which says…
Gen 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,And yet he quotes his John several times concerning Jesus being the Word/God the creator…
John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.How do you explain this t8? Is Ignatius a Polytheist or a Henotheist as you suggest?
You cant have it 2 ways t8. You want to call Jesus a “divine being” and yet quote John 10:34 an Isolated scripture quoted by Jesus referring to the Pss in defence of him being the Son of God which they interpreted as being equal to God. You also use this as a reason for John using “Theos” in Jn 1:1 and 20:28. So if you think it is scriptural to call Jesus a god, then why arnnt you holding to this translation and say with Thomas my Lord and my god? This is what the JWs did. You say Jesus meant that men were gods in a true sense. But Paul says there is “so called gods” and only One True God, and all other so called gods are not gods at all. Now did Paul hear form the Spirit of Jesus?
You have yet to show one place in the NT scriptures that the word “Theos” is ascribed in a “true or positive” sense to any other living being at that time other than the Father and the Son.
If you believe that Jesus is a god or we are gods then why don’t you just say so, all you allude to is what you say is his nature, that he like us is a
“partaker” of the Fathers divine nature. Where is the scripture that Jesus has “Partaken” of the Fathers divine nature? Jesus is the express Image of the Invisible God, he as the Word/God reveals who the God is because he is God in the flesh. There is a big difference in being the “Epress image of God” and “partaking of his image.You t8 are in opposition to the words of Ignatius when he says…
Whosoever, therefore, declares that there is but one God, only so as to take away the divinity of Christ, is a devil, and an enemy of all righteousness. He also that confesseth Christ, yet not as the Son of the Maker of the world, but of some other unknown being, different from Him whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil.
Notice t8 he says they make Jesus the Son of some other being “Different from him” whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil.
And again…
The Evangelists, too, when they declared that the one Father was the only true God, did not omit what concerned our Lord, but wrote: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.Again if Ignatius meant that Jesus was “a god” then he sure has confused a lot of people for he speaks of Jesus as his God quite often!
Look and see…
* How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
* there is also one Son, God the Word
**Jesus Christ, our God*
* *by the blood of God*
* There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh* (1 Tim 3:16)
* We have also as a Physician *the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began
(notice t8 that he says the the Lord our God the Word is before time! Even you t8 dont believe Jesus is not a created being, yet you use Ignatius quote from Proverbs 8 against me. Did he contradict himself? I dont think so? Do you?)•For he who shall both “do and teach, the same shall be great in the kingdom. Matt. v. 19.of*Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*
•*For our God, Jesus Christ*, was, according to the appointment Or, “economy,” or “dispensation.” Comp. Col. i. 25; 1 Tim. i. 4. of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.
•*God being manifested as a man, and man displaying power as God.•He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, *was God the Word,*
•Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with *Jesus Christ our God*
•Mary then did truly conceive a *body which had God inhabiting it*. And *God the Word* was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. *He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin*
•(There he goes again t8 calling Jesus the Creator)
•Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to* the love of Jesus Christ our God*•…who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in* Jesus Christ our God*.
•the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of *Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour;*
•*For our God, Jesus Christ*, now that He is with [or in] the Father, is all the more revealed [in his glory]. Christianity is not a thing of silence only, but also of [manifest] greatness.
•Permit me to be an imitator of *the passion of Christ, my God*. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.v.html
•Since, also, there is but *one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father*; and *one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man*; and *one Comforter, the Spirit of truth*; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
•If any one confesses *the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost*
•*God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word*, even as the soul also is in the body, *because it was God that inhabited it, and not a human soul*
•*I GLORIFY God, even Jesus Christ*, who has given you such wisdom.•*I give glory to Jesus Christ the God* who
bestowed such wisdom upon you…
•*God the Word, the only-begotten Son*, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; was baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him…•For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have. And He says to Thomas, “Reach hither
thy finger into the print of the nails, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side; and immediately they believed that He was Christ. Wherefore *Thomas also says to Him, “My Lord, and my God*. And on this account also did they despise death, for it were too little to say, indignities and stripes.
•*servants of Christ our God*, who have followed me for the sake of God, and who give thanks to the Lord in your behalf, because ye have in every way refreshed them.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.html
To Polycarp
8:3 I bid you farewell always *in our God Jesus Christ*, in whom abide ye in the unity and supervision of God. I salute Alce, a name very dear to me.Grace shall be with him for ever, and with Polycarp that sends him. I pray for your happiness *for ever in our God, Jesus Christ*, by whom continue ye in the unity and under the protection of God, I salute Alce, my dearly beloved.
Look for Christ, the Son of God; who was before time, yet appeared in time; who was invisible by nature, yet visible in the flesh; who was impalpable, and could not be touched, as being without a body, but for our sakes became such, might be touched and handled in the body; *who was impassible as God, but became passible for our sakes as man; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes.*
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.viii.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ts.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ot.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.htmlAgain…
Its quite obvi
ous Ignatius was not a Henotheist, nor a Polytheist, nor a Unitarian. This man of God was a contemporary of John and Paul and quoted such as we have the Word now!How do you explain this t8?
His view seems to align with Jesus and John and Paul and Thomas and Mattew and the Trinitarians.
But it sure dosnt line up with yours!
So goes the the fallacious claim that the Trinity was invented by Athanasius!
Again t8, you quote…
Quote
Ignatius said:
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).Of course he is not saying Jesus is the Father as you assume. He is saying as it is in its context that Jesus is God over all but the Father. For who else t8 is the Creator?
Look again my friend, those who deny Jesus is the Creator are ministers of satan. And also he that does cont confess that the Word/God has come in the flesh has denied him, therefore confirming what John his contemporary says.
For what does it profit, if any one commends me, *but blasphemes my Lord*, not owning Him to be God incarnate? *He that does not confess this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death*. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as *they are unbelievers*; and far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent.
BTW t8. Ignatius dosnt believe the same as you concerning the Holy Spirit…
Quote .” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.”There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, but into **three [persons] possessed of equal honour [one name]** Do you see the “three persons, possessed of equal honour?
You still havn't addressed my post on the Spirit!!!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,12:17) I think he is addressing two heresys of his day. 1. Unitarians – “that He is not the Son the Creator. Who else is Creator but God t8?
Unitarians believe Jesus is not God in any sense and therefore he is not the creator, nor do they believe he pre-existed. They believe that the creation was done by God with the Son in mind through the thought or plan of God!
2. Oneness – “that He is Himself God over all”. That Jesus is himself the Father! Jesus only!
Wow that is amazing.He actually condemns those who say that Jesus is God over all, which is what you believe and you try and wiggle out of it. You are not doing yourself any favours WJ. It is in your OWN interest to accept a rebuke and change, rather than try to dodge it for prides sake.
You then go onto to say that Ignatius says that the God over all is actually the Father.
There it is WJ, it's right there. YOU SAID IT.
The God over all is the Father. Is that not what I have taught all along, and then after much opposition toward me on this point, you say the same thing in order to wiggle out of a condemning statement directed at people who teach or say as you do.
Let's recap.
Ignatius says:
- that the God over all is the Father (and he excludes the son);
- that those who say that Jesus is God overall is a minister of Satan.
You say:
- that the God over all is the Father (and include the Son), (and Spirit).
- that Jesus is God over all.
Ignatius condemns you on both points. It is as clear as day.
BTW, Ignatius obviously believes that the Word is divine/or came from God having the nature of God. I do to. God the Word isn't the God overall according to Ignatius.
As far as the creator part. He is either saying that Jesus is the son of the creator or that God created all things through him.
If he actually says that Jesus is the creator to the exclusion of the Father, then he is wrong.
I fully expect your rebuttal to argue the second part of this post and ignore the first, but now that I have said this, you may do otherwise to spite what I have written. That is fine with me.
Some more Ignatius writings that may interest you (excerpts):
Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter VIII.—Caution against false doctrines. Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence,676 and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him. Be not deceived with strange doctrines, “nor give heed to fables and and endless genealogies,”677 and things in which the Jews make their boast. “Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new.”678 For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.679
Now that is boldly anti-Trinitarian! Let's read some more of Ignatius
Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter XI.—I write these things to warn you. These things , my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;706 but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope,707 from which may no one of you ever be turned aside.
These things , my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;708 but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.709 He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us710 ever be turned aside!
One of the first to teach Trinity? With statements like these? Hmmm…
Quote (t8 @ July 19 2007,13:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,12:17) I think he is addressing two heresys of his day. 1. Unitarians – “that He is not the Son the Creator. Who else is Creator but God t8?
Unitarians believe Jesus is not God in any sense and therefore he is not the creator, nor do they believe he pre-existed. They believe that the creation was done by God with the Son in mind through the thought or plan of God!
2. Oneness – “that He is Himself God over all”. That Jesus is himself the Father! Jesus only!
Wow that is amazing.He actually condemns those who say that Jesus is God over all, which is what you believe and you try and wiggle out of it. You are not doing yourself any favours WJ. It is in your OWN interest to accept a rebuke and change, rather than try to dodge it for prides sake.
You then go onto to say that Ignatius says that the God over all is actually the Father.
There it is WJ, it's right there. YOU SAID IT.
The God over all is the Father. Is that not what I have taught all along, and then after much opposition toward me on this point, you say the same thing in order to wiggle out of a condemning statement directed at people who teach or say as you do.
Let's recap.
Ignatius says:
- that the God over all is the Father (and he excludes the son);
- that those who say that Jesus is God overall is a minister of Satan.
You say:
- that the God over all is the Father (and include the Son), (and Spirit).
- that Jesus is God over all.
Ignatius condemns you on both points. It is as clear as day.
BTW, Ignatius obviously believes that the Word is divine/or came from God having the nature of God. I do to. God the Word isn't the God overall according to Ignatius.
As far as the creator part. He is either saying that Jesus is the son of the creator or that God created all things through him.
If he actually says that Jesus is the creator to the exclusion of the Father, then he is wrong.
I fully expect your rebuttal to argue the second part of this post and ignore the first, but now that I have said this, you may do otherwise to spite what I have written. That is fine with me.
t8You say…
Quote
As far as the creator part. He is either saying that Jesus is the son of the creator or that God created all things through him.If he actually says that Jesus is the creator to the exclusion of the Father, then he is wrong.
I see so you take what you want distort it, then say he is wrong on the obvious quotes that he makes that *negates* your distorted view of Ignatius!
You fail to address my points and ignore my questions.
This is exactly what you do with John 1:1 and 20:28 and other scriptures that clearly show Jesus is not what you claim him to be.
Look at the quotes again…
Ignatius is a Monotheist
Yet Ignatius says in the above…* God the Word, who also created all things.
• God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*
Notice t8 that Ignatius says Jesus created all things, confirming Heb 1:10.
He also said earlier…
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born only in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator.t8, isn’t this what you believe, that Jesus is not the creator, but that the Father created everything “through him”. You believe that Jesus was just an empty vessel and that he did not lay the foundation of the world according to Heb 1:10.
It looks like Ignatius is saying that you and NH are ministers of satan! I am not saying that, but Ignatius is.
Is not the Creator God over all? So when he says…
“others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all.”, he is meaning Jesus is not God over the Father.
For he also says…
And that He Himself is not God over all, *and the Father*
Ignatius claims Jesus is the creator. Do you think t8 that he is in opposition to the Hebrew scriptures which says…
Gen 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,And yet he quotes his John several times concerning Jesus being the Word/God the creator…
John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.How do you explain this t8? Is Ignatius a Polytheist or a Henotheist as you suggest?
Again t8, you quote…
Quote
Ignatius said:
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).Of course he is not saying Jesus is the Father as you assume. He is saying as it is in its context that Jesus is God over all but the Father. For who else t8 is the Creator?
Ignatius is negating your proposed view of the above by claiming Jesus is both God incarnate and the Creator!!!
Obviously what you read into it dosnt work does it?
Look again my friend, those who deny Jesus is the Creator are ministers of satan. And also he that does not confess that the Word/God has come in the flesh has
denied him, therefore confirming what John his contemporary says.1 Jn 4:
1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (Word/God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.For what does it profit, if any one commends me, *but blasphemes my Lord*, not owning Him to be God incarnate? *He that does not confess this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death*. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as *they are unbelievers*; and far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent.
BTW t8. Ignatius dosnt believe the same as you concerning the Holy Spirit…
Quote .” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.”There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, but into **three [persons] possessed of equal honour [one name]** Do you see the “three persons, possessed of equal honour?
You still havn't addressed my post on the Spirit!!!
Looking through Ignatius' writings, he often refers to Yeshua as “God”. I put it in quotation marks because I wonder of it should be capitalized. But I also not that he calls the Father the Almighty God in some places and true God in others. He never uses Almighty or true God to refer to Yeshua. Yet as you can see above, he warns against polytheism by saying there is “one and only true God, His Father”.
Weird indeed. If I had my guess — and it helps straighten out “My Lord and My God” by Thomas — I'd say that he is referring to Yeshua as God in the same fashion that YHWH told Moses he would be Pharaoh's God (Ex 7:1). How else could you reconcile Ignatius' warning of polytheism by Yeshua making known “the one and only true God, His Father”?
Thoughts? Or was Ignatius just some wacked out, double-minded dude?
WJ,
I think our struggle is with theos. You see “God” and automatically think Trinity. But my above post using excerpts from Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians points out that he believes the Father is the one true God and Almighty. By calling Yeshua God, he is saying he is God to us because he represented God in the flesh, just like some OT judges, and just like Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 7:1).
So by pointing out that the Father is the one true God, he is saying that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, and thus God to him. Its not a matter of Yeshua being a false God but being the representation of God among us. Do you see the difference? If you don't you have trouble with Ignatius saying “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He [Yeshus] made known the one and only true God, His Father”.
If we accept what Ignatius says as truth, which might be dangerous since it is not in the Bible, we may finally have a very clear understanding of Thomas saying “My Lord and My God”.
kejonn
Lets look at the same with a different emphasis…
On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His *Word*, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance *begotten by* divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.679
Hebrews 1:
God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets,
2 at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the *word of his power*, having made by himself the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on highAnd how about this one…
Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.Then you quote…
Quote Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter XI.—I write these things to warn you. These things , my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;706 but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope,707 from which may no one of you ever be turned aside. These things , my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;708 but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.709 He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us710 ever be turned aside!
The key to your claim that because he teaches against Polytheism means that he teaches against the trinity is the fact that he claims Jesus as the Creator!
Plain and simple.
Ignatius like John who discipled him believed Jesus to be YHWH in the flesh.
Quote (kejonn @ July 19 2007,16:53) Looking through Ignatius' writings, he often refers to Yeshua as “God”. I put it in quotation marks because I wonder of it should be capitalized. But I also not that he calls the Father the Almighty God in some places and true God in others. He never uses Almighty or true God to refer to Yeshua. Yet as you can see above, he warns against polytheism by saying there is “one and only true God, His Father”. Weird indeed. If I had my guess — and it helps straighten out “My Lord and My God” by Thomas — I'd say that he is referring to Yeshua as God in the same fashion that YHWH told Moses he would be Pharaoh's God (Ex 7:1). How else could you reconcile Ignatius' warning of polytheism by Yeshua making known “the one and only true God, His Father”?
Thoughts? Or was Ignatius just some wacked out, double-minded dude?
kejonnIf you think Ignatius is wacked out, then so was John and Paul and Thomas and the writter of Hebrews for they also believed God came in the flesh!
Quote (kejonn @ July 19 2007,17:08) WJ, I think our struggle is with theos. You see “God” and automatically think Trinity. But my above post using excerpts from Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians points out that he believes the Father is the one true God and Almighty. By calling Yeshua God, he is saying he is God to us because he represented God in the flesh, just like some OT judges, and just like Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 7:1).
So by pointing out that the Father is the one true God, he is saying that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, and thus God to him. Its not a matter of Yeshua being a false God but being the representation of God among us. Do you see the difference? If you don't you have trouble with Ignatius saying “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He [Yeshus] made known the one and only true God, His Father”.
If we accept what Ignatius says as truth, which might be dangerous since it is not in the Bible, we may finally have a very clear understanding of Thomas saying “My Lord and My God”.
kejonnYou say…
Quote
So by pointing out that the Father is the one true God, he is saying that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, and thus God to him.There is no way of cutting your statement to be anything other than Polytheism.
Jesus came to do away with all “elohims” that represented the God of the OT.
He is the Word/God in the flesh. Jn 1:1 1:14, 1 Tim 3:16, Zech 12 and 14.
Please show me scripture where any being was considered to be “God” in the flesh!
Also while you are at it, how about a New Testament scripture where the word “Theos” in a true or positive sense is ascribed to a “living” being in his time other than the Father and Jesus!
WJ,
I don't doubt that Ignatius felt that God came in the flesh. But I think we don't truly understand the way “God” was used in the first century and before. I think that is where we have the division and th misleadings. Ignatius' writings somewhat confirm this. How can he in some places say that the Father is the one true God, the one and only God, but turn around and call Yeshua God?
The Trinity tries to make Yeshua, the Father, and the Holy Spirit out as the true God together. However, Ignatius quite plainly refutes this. He boldly states that the Father is the true God. I know that doesn't line up well with you but it cannot be ignored.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,17:08)
The key to your claim that because he teaches against Polytheism means that he teaches against the trinity is the fact that he claims Jesus as the Creator!Plain and simple.
Ignatius like John who discipled him believed Jesus to be YHWH in the flesh.
WJ,I was wondering where you kept coming up with this “Jesus the Creator” stuff. Now I see, Epistle to the Tarsians. This Epistles was listed under the spurious writings of Ignatius. That is, from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xiii.html
We formerly stated that eight out of the fifteen Epistles bearing the name of Ignatius are now universally admitted to be spurious. None of them are quoted or referred to by any ancient writer previous to the sixth century. The style, moreover, in which they are written, so different from that of the other Ignatian letters, and allusions which they contain to heresies and ecclesiastical arrangements of a much later date than that of their professed author, render it perfectly certain that they are not the authentic production of the illustrious bishop of Antioch.
In that to the Tarsians there is found a plain allusion to the Sabellian heresy, which did not arise till after the middle of the third century. In the Epistle to the Antiochians there is an enumeration of various Church officers, who were certainly unknown at the period when Ignatius lived. The Epistle to Hero plainly alludes to Manichæan errors, and could not therefore have been written before the third century. There are equally decisive proofs of spuriousness to be found in the Epistle to the Philippians, such as the references it contains to the Patripassian heresy originated by Praxeas in the latter part of the second century, and the ecclesiastical feasts, etc., of which it makes mention. The letter to Maria Cassobolita is of a very peculiar style, utterly alien from that of the other Epistles ascribed to Ignatius. And it is sufficient simply to glance at the short Epistles to St. John and the Virgin Mary, in order to see that they carry the stamp of imposture on their front; and, indeed, no sooner were they published than by almost universal consent they were rejected.
So to refer to the Tarsians Epistle is grave error. If you want to use Ignatius' writings, at least stay within those that the scholars feel were actually written by him.
As to your other part of the post, it was off base and stuff already covered many, many times on this board.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2007,17:22)
kejonnYou say…
Quote
So by pointing out that the Father is the one true God, he is saying that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, and thus God to him.There is no way of cutting your statement to be anything other than Polytheism.
Huh? Ignatius said it, not me. I don't think Yeshua is God. He may be “God” in the sense that Moses was “God” to pharaoh, but he is not the one an only true God, the Father. Even Ignatius said so.Quote Jesus came to do away with all “elohims” that represented the God of the OT.
Scripture please. I've never heard that. He came to show us God by his words and actions, and then to die on the cross for our salvation.Quote He is the Word/God in the flesh. Jn 1:1 1:14, 1 Tim 3:16, Zech 12 and 14.
Ignatius said as much. But he also said that the Father was the one and only true God, the Almighty. You know, same Almighty as YHWH in the OT.Quote Please show me scripture where any being was considered to be “God” in the flesh!
None was. No other man was born of the Holy Spirit and called the Son of God. What is your point?Quote Also while you are at it, how about a New Testament scripture where the word “Theos” in a true or positive sense is ascribed to a “living” being in his time other than the Father and Jesus!
You are running low on excuses. This is one of the most desperate pleas I've seen from you. There was no more representatives of God in the NT. The Apostles carried out what Yeshua started, they were not prophets or judges. They are as we are today: Christians who had the honor to spread the Gospel.And BTW, show me where the Bible calls Yeshua God in a manner unlike Ignatius. Since Ignatius made these statements “being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son” and “and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father“, do so in a manner where “one and only true God” or “one God, the Almighty” is said of Yeshua.
Kejonn
You say…
Quote
I'm sorry if my answer does not satisfy you. In fact, if you look again at Romans 8:9, you would see that with the separation of “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” in the same verse, you would realize that both Yeshua and the Father influence you through their roles. Would “One God” need to make such distinction? Why the need to have Yeshua and God's Spirit, both the same but with each contributing a little different essence to our lives be necessary?That’s the question you have not answered?
Scripture teaches we can not approach God but through The mediator between God and man the man Jesus. What does it mean through Jesus?
Does it mean through Jesus Spirit. So the Father is a Spirit and Jesus has a Spirit.
Well, again there is no way to cut it that that means that we have received 2 Spirits!
Now when I make that statement then the “Unitarians” “Henotheist” and “Arians” put on their filters and say see Jesus cant be God because he is a man. “How can he be the God he was with?” As if to say it is not possible that God can be ontologically one with the Word and the Holy Spirit!
Who says so. The scriptures don’t.
The scriptures say there is One True God, but not at the exclusion of the Son.
You say…
Quote There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again. We don’t, but we see Comforter, Holy Spirit, Finger of God, Spirit of truth, Spirit of God, Spirit of Jesus, Spirit of him…Etc, Etc.
Its fallacious to say because the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name that he cannot be a person, or that he dosnt exist as another! The Father dosnt have a personal name that we know does he?
You didn’t answer my post on the following scriptures. Please tell me how you read these and not see “Another”!!!
Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: 1. for he shall not speak of himself; but 2. whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: 3. for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 4. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.1. Does the Father speak of himself?
2. Does the Father speak only what he hears?
3. Does the Father take from Jesus and show it to us?
4. Does he give all things to Jesus then take from Jesus and shew to us!
Is the Father subservient to Jesus?
Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire!
Imagine that! Can a mere man do that?
Men try to understand the nature of the spirit comparing him to our own personal being. Therefore men would put limitations on him and in so doing put limitations on God.
The Holy Spirits ministry is not to speak of himself, but to serve the Father and Jesus, For the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.This distinction is made between God and the Lamb because Yeshua is also forever God in the flesh!
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