- This topic is empty.
- Posts
From the Jehovah's Witnesses sect's own Bible.
NWT II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,23:38) WJ and Is, Yes, I did. What do I need to address? I provided the verse that shows the old adage: “what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine”. I could get detailed and provide lessons on many of the passages, and in particular Romans 8:9, but in the end the Holy Spirit originates from the Father but is shared by Yeshau, the monogenes Son who inherited all things from the Father. The only thing Yeshua did not inherit was certain rights and titles that he could never have, like being God and therefore being “God of gods”.
I'm sorry if my answer does not satisfy you. In fact, if you look again at Romans 8:9, you would see that with the separation of “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” in the same verse, you would realize that both Yeshua and the Father influence you through their roles. Would “One God” need to make such distinction? Why the need to have Yeshua and God's Spirit, both the same but with each contributing a little different essence to our lives be necessary?
There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again.
Here is the lesson of Romans 8:9-11 – Having the Spirit of God means we are not in the flesh. Having the Spirit of Christ allows us to be more like Yeshua. We can't be like God because God was never flesh and never faced temptation and overcame. Yeshua did and he is our kindred, our brother, and the head of our collective body because he shares our humanity.
Peace!
I will address this post point by point, but I want clarification on something first.When we read “Spirit of Christ” (or a synonym) in the NT should we understand this to mean Yeshua's personal Spirit?
Thanks.
kejonn
Quote There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again. Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
kejonn. It seems that you have another gospel, another spirit as well as another Jesus. Is this where you get them from?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
Off you go to the drawing board !
2Co 11:4 For if, indeed, the one coming proclaims another Jesus, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit, which you did not receive, or another gospel, which you never accepted, you might well endure these .
Hi CB
ITSELF
Number 846
Transliteration:
autos {ow-tos'}
Word Origin:
from the particle au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind] (backward)
Part of Speech:
pronoun
Usage in the KJV:
him 1947, them 1148, her 195, it 152, not tr. 36, misc 1676Total: 5154
Definition:
himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, it
the same Wigram's frequency count is 4913 not 5117.Did you not know the Spirit of God manifests our God within creation?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2007,17:34) I will address this post point by point, but I want clarification on something first. When we read “Spirit of Christ” (or a synonym) in the NT should we understand this to mean Yeshua's personal Spirit?
Thanks.
Correct. And that is how Jesus is one with God and how we can be one with God and Jesus.Spirit like water can become one. But then in this oneness we do not lose our unique identities. It is a union of will and purpose in spirit and we can all be in God and God in us and God in Christ and Christ in God. It is not meant to be taken as a substance doctrine that describes persons in a substance thingy.
We can be one in spirit with God and you don't teach that we are God, so I think that you can grasp this.
Quote Spirit like water can become one. But then in this oneness we do not lose our unique identities. It is a union of will and purpose in spirit and we can all be in God and God in us and God in Christ and Christ in God. It is not meant to be taken as a substance doctrine that describes persons in a substance thingy.
Hmmm…that's a unique way to look at it. Can you find some scripture for me to give these assertions some validity?1. Spirit like water can become one.
2. In this oneness we do not lose our unique identities.
3. It is a union of will and purpose in spirit and we can all be in God and God in us and God in Christ and Christ in God.
Thanks
Sure.
God is in Jesus and Jesus is in God and we are in God and Jesus.
God is Spirit and we have spirits.We know that this union is not physical, so it must be spiritual. But I think that many get confused with God being in Jesus and vice versa. They think this somehow makes God and Jesus the same being. But we can be one with them too.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.If we are led by the Spirit, then it is the Spirit that testifies with our spirit. This is where the union of God and Man is. We are one in spirit or joined together in spirit, but we are still who we are. We ultimately do not lose our lives when we become one with God and his son.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.John 17:11
…Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.John 17:20
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Be well.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2007,19:36) Quote Spirit like water can become one. But then in this oneness we do not lose our unique identities. It is a union of will and purpose in spirit and we can all be in God and God in us and God in Christ and Christ in God. It is not meant to be taken as a substance doctrine that describes persons in a substance thingy.
Hmmm…that's a unique way to look at it. Can you find some scripture for me to give these assertions some validity?1. Spirit like water can become one.
2. In this oneness we do not lose our unique identities.
3. It is a union of will and purpose in spirit and we can all be in God and God in us and God in Christ and Christ in God.
Thanks
Hi Is 1.18,
Interesting point.
The Spirit of God can be poured and it can be shown in Hebrew and Greek.Joel2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;Number 8210
Transliteration:
shaphak {shaw-fak'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
2444
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
pour out 46, shed 36, pour 20, cast 6, gush out 1, misc 6Total: 115
Definition:
to pour, pour out, spill
(Qal)
to pour, pour out
to shed (blood)
to pour out (anger or heart) (fig)
(Niphal) to be poured out, be shed
(Pual) to be poured out, be shed
(Hithpael)
to be poured out
to pour out oneselfActs 2
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:Number 1632
Transliteration:
ekcheo {ek-kheh'-o} or (by variation) ekchuno {ek-khoo'-no}
Word Origin:
from 1537
TDNT:
2:467,220
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
pour out 12, shed 4, shed forth 1, spill 1, run out 1, shed 5, run greedily 1, shed abroad 1, gush out 1, spill 1Total: 28
Definition:
to pour out, shed forth
metaph. to bestow or distribute largelySo the Spirit of God has a liquid like quality.
In modern usage of course there is the fluid WHITE SPIRIT.Good post Nick.
Quite thorough too.
When I think of water it is like the physical representation of spirit.
Spirit/breath gives life and all physical life needs water.
We have rivers on earth and proceeding out from the throne of God is the River of Life. I couldn't imagine this river having physical water and we know that spirit brings life. Think of Adam. He became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils.
Then we have these beautiful verses:
John 4:7-10
7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?”
8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
What is the living water he talks about?
True t8,
Jer2
“Jeremiah 2:1313″For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns
That can hold no water.Thanks for the scripture.
It spoke to me regarding a vision I received once. But that is another story.
Once again, thanks.
Hi t8,
So God is the ultimate source of the living waters which are made available to men through the man Jesus Christ.
I guess we can expect a post from CB highlighting these verses as further proof to him that Jesus is that God, his Father.Amen to that Nick.
Not amen to CB, but I expect that certain men who come here will continue in their mission to undermine us. However the Pharisees opposition to Jesus Christ didn't stop him from fulfilling his purpose.
I have been thinking lately that there will come a time when debating with these guys comes to an end. They opposed us in just about every way and we listened and they still haven't come up with a good case, nor refuted that there is one God the Father and that he is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. I doubt that they ever will and a lot of what they say are just repeats now. They have been useful as a way for us to look at all that we teach and the ramifications of that, but you can't spend your whole life answering your opposition and going around in circles with people who cannot reason.
I know Christ taught many things and the Pharisees listened in and sometimes they opposed him directly. But he didn't spend his 3 years of ministry just answering their questions, he did spend some time answering them though. So with that in mind, I think that debating with these guys will serve its purpose in time and then it could be more about serving those who have ears to hear.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 18 2007,17:14) kejonn. The Holy Spirit may represent the other Persons of the Godhead but He does not cease to be God as you seem to think. Does your lawyer cease to be himself when he represents you? You reason like a JW. Have you been a JW? http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
1. The Spirit Himself (Romans 8:16; 8:26)
2. The Spirit of God (Romans 8:9; 8:14)
3. The Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Hey, at least you didn't post 1/4 of the Bible this time
.Here's your analogy:
* Fred is my lawyer. >> Fred, lawyer of Kejonn
* Fred is your lawyer. >> Fred, lawyer of CB
* Fred is his own lawyer. (yes he can represent himself) >> Fred, lawyer of FredNow, as it is written in many places
* The Holy Spirit is Father's Spirit (Mat 10:10) >> HS, Spirit of the Father (or Spirit of God)
* The Holy Spirit is Christ's Spirit (1 Pet 2:11) >> HS, Spirit of Christ
* The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit's Spirit (no scripture) >>HS, Spirit of the Holy SpiritLet's see, all of the lawyer scenario can be true, but scripture does not hold to the truth of the Holy Spirit equivalent scenario. It must be a silent partner
.I did a search to see where anyone either prayer to or was told to pray to the Spirit. I came up empty. There were verses about praying IN the Spirit, but not to the Spirit (Eph 6:18, Jude 1:20) but never to the Spirit.
I also found where people prayed to God (Gen 20:17, Num 12:13, 1Sa 12:19, 2Sa 7:27, 1Ki 8:26, 1Ki 17:21, many more). So by saying that the Holy Spirit is God, one must conclude that we can pray to the Holy Spirit. But the Bible does not back this up.
BTW, Yeshua told us who we are to pray to:
Luk 11:2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.
So let's see, if all of those OT people prayed to God, and Yeshua told us to pray to the Father, well…BINGO. You guessed it. Put Luke 11:2 together with the following verse, and even Yeshua shows you who God is.
Luk 6:12 It was at this time that He [Yeshua] went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
Hard to refute that isn't it? No prayers to Yeshua, no prayers to the Holy Spirit. Yeshua prayed to the Father, to God. Can you you show me where Yeshua ever told us to pray to him? No, but he knew his role in our prayers, and it was an awesome one, but still he was not to be prayed to
Jhn 16:23 “In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.
Now let's move on to worship. Ever see where the Holy Spirit was worshiped? No? Bible tells us to worship God (Dt 6:13). As His monogenes Son, firstborn by rights, God loves and honors His Son so much that He allows and encourages worship of Yeshua (Heb 1:6). But no where do we see Holy Spirit worship. Why not? Part of God as a 3rd person right? Hmmm….
One last note. Yeshua says in places “My Father”. God says “My Son”. Both claim ownership of the Spirit. Nowhere do we see the Holy Spirit saying “My God”, “My Son”, “My Brother”, “My Father”, or “my anything”.
“The Holy Spirit, silent partner in the Triune God”.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 18 2007,17:46) kejonn Quote There is a lesson for you in Romans 8:9-11, and it is not that the Holy Spirit being a third member of a triune God. Haha, in fact, by showing that Yeshua and God each own the Holy Spirit, one sees rather quickly that the Holy Spirit cannot be a third person, but a mutually shared essence. Where do we see “Spirit of God”, “Spirit of Christ” and “Spirit of Holy Spirit”? We don't. Ooops, you're theology stumbles again. Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
kejonn. It seems that you have another gospel, another spirit as well as another Jesus. Is this where you get them from?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
Off you go to the drawing board !
2Co 11:4 For if, indeed, the one coming proclaims another Jesus, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit, which you did not receive, or another gospel, which you never accepted, you might well endure these .
No CB, I get my Gospel from here:
I do not get my Gospel from
Romans 8:16
DBY: The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God.
WBS: The Spirit itself testifieth with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
KJV: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Gee, I guess somewhere long the line someone decided that in order for the Holy Spirit to be a “person”, it had to have a “sex”.
t8
Yes it is very pridefull to hold on to a belief that says “God” made all things through a “lessor being” “or a “smaller god' than himself when scriptures are clear that “by himself”, “alone” he made all things!Mary>>>How is it prideful, WJ? The very context of Jn 1:1 demands that Jesus be understood to NOT be the “God” whom he was “with.” Taking into consideration Isa 9:6, where the Son is called “Mighty God,” we do indeed see that Jesus is a peson of authority, i.e., a “God” by Biblical descripton, and yet he is NOT God the Father Almighty.
God the FatherAlmighty proves to be YHWH, the Most High God, the very One to whom Jesus, the Son, prayed and yes, WORSHIPED (Rev 3:12).
I heartily embrace the Bible in CONTEXT, as a WHOLE, and each book in context, as well as the chapters, and, there really is no legitimate, non-spurious scriptures that prove God exists in three equal beings.WJ continues:
Jn 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!Mary>>>And so I ask you, WJ, WHICH “God” did the creating?
I agree that it was Almighty God. He created it “alone” in that it is solely from him that the power, the Spirit, comes, and he can delegate it to whomever he wishes. In the begnning (Gen 1), AlmightyGod delegated his Spirit to his first creation, his already only-begotten Son (Col 1:15; Rev 1:14), and this is why the scripture says that “all things were created by him and THROUGH him.”
They were created “by” Jesus in that he was the instrument that HIS GOD used to do the creating. AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS UNDERSTANDING IS THAT JESUS GAVE NO HELP OF HIS OWN TO HIS GOD IN THE CREATIVE PROCESS, AND THUS THE SCRIPTURE SAYS HE DID It “alone.” Jesus had NOTHING inherently. ALL things that he had and was came from HIS GOD as he liberally expressed.When we read that God says “there is no one beside me,” and “no one like me” he is stating that there is no being EQUAL to him.
WJ>And yet we read by a strict Monotheistic Jew…
John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.Mary> See? “That same was in the beginning” [of creation] WITH [HIS] GOD, (Rev 3:12).
The word “monotheism” (meaning that no other Gods exist except one) really is something coined by mankind. You cannot really apply that word to the Jews or imply that YHWH viewed the universe as “monotheistic” because HE HIMSELF CALLED OTHER BEINGS “Gods,” thus showing that HE accepted that others be described by that word who were his supporters an worshipers, and not just he false gods like Marduk. He had it recorded that angels men be called by that word.
Now, to CHRISTIANS there is ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, but there are definitely other persons of authority (See Vine's Expository Dict., “God”) working UNDER that Almighty God, suchas his faithful Son.On another topic:
Does anyone else have trouble with the words on the screen keeping up with your typing? I constantly have to go back and make corrections where letters are left out, becaue it just can't seem to keep up. Irritating. : )Mary : )
CB writes:
NWT II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.Mary>>>Does this sound unreasonable or contradictory to you, considering how JWs (since you quoted the NWT above) view Almighty God?
Think about it:
Of course Jehovah (AlmightyGod, the God of the Jews) “IS” the Spirit.
That spirit is his inherent force, and what he USES to create and do every thing that he wills. It was the power he used to create the universe, and he can give it to whom he wishes. He is the ultimate Deligator of authority.1 n 4:8 also says “God IS love.” But Love is not a person, is it? No. It's a quality that is sometimes poetically personified in scripture, just as wisdom is, and sin is. And so “spirit” is also personified because of the powerful works that it does when ALmighty God sends it to do his will.
The KJV says at Romans 8:16 and 26
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:Now I looked up the Greek word “autos,” here translated “itself.”
The usage for this word can be “himself,” “herself,” “themselves,” or “itself.”
Therefore, by the simple word “autos” one cannot determine what gender it is referring to, whether it even is referring to a gender or not, or whether it's referring to a single or a plural entity.
The translators own interpretation is therefore up for grabs.However, Romans 8:16, 26, and Numbers 11:25 shows that the Holy Spirit is NOTalways referred to in the masculine “he”.
ASV: Num 11:25 And Jehovah came down in the cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put IT upon the seventy elders:There God's spirit is referred to as an “it” in many, various Bible translations, most notably, the KJV, Darby and Webster.
Mary : )
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
