Trinity &#8211; t8&#39;s proof text #1

Participant

Quote (t8 @ July 10 2007,19:56)

The Trinity, Evolution, it's all the same. They are lies.
Man thinks he knows more than the truth.

The pride of man is silly. His wisdom is far below God's foolishness.

Yes it is very pridefull to hold on to a belief that says “God” made all things through a “lessor being” “or a “smaller god' than himself when scriptures are clear that “by himself”, “alone” he made all things!

Jn 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

And yet we read by a strict Monotheistic Jew…

John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.

As clear as the nose on ones face!

Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

July 10, 2007 at 6:11 pm#59102

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2007,21:24)

Hi W,
You said
“If Jesus is God we are!”

Well I for one am not God.
How about you W?

Would God be pleased my friend for you mis-quoting me!

This is called “bearing false witness” or in modern day language, “telling lies”.

Maybe you should go back and rephrase what you said.

July 10, 2007 at 6:42 pm#59106

Participant

Hi W,
I quote
You said
“If Jesus is God we are!”

I am not God.
Can you please clarify your position.

July 10, 2007 at 8:08 pm#59119

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 10 2007,11:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2007,11:17)

Hi OLB,
Yes unless “I alone” means “we together” the trinitarians are no further ahead.

If Jesus is God we are!

So live with the contradiction!

Since I dont have editing rights, this post was a mistake!

Please refer to post after this one…

I said…

Quote

No I think if Jesus is God we are ahead in our theology since you have a contradiction if you dont believe Jesus is God

I think you you know this, however this should clear up you mis-quote!

You know NH I would never say such a thing, so rather than cause this confusion why didnt you just ask me to clarify?

July 10, 2007 at 8:28 pm#59122

Mr. Steve

Participant

The best way to find out who Jesus is to read the scriptures that state what Jesus said with respect to who he was and is. The rule is all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for our learning and instruction… II Tim. 3:16. Just about every writing I read concerning the Godhead is limited to scriptures that only express a limited understanding of Christ. You have requested that the arguments be limited to three scriptures including John 1:1, John 20:28, and Heb. 1:8. Lets look at those first.

John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In this passage we do not see the name Jesus, Son of God, Son of Man, or any other names used for Christ in the Gospel. What we read is that God's Word is God. The same writer, John the Divine, writes in 1 John 1 that the Word of Life was manifested and we have seen it with our eyes and our hands have handled it. That is the life that was with the Father was manifest unto us. How was the life manifest to us? The word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, John 1:14. These scriptures show that the life that was manifest to us in the person of Jesus Christ was that eternal life which was with the Father. Neither of them state that Jesus Christ was eternal.

Now the 2nd scripture per your request is John 20:28. This is Thomas stating to the Christ, “My Lord and my God.” Thomas stated that Christ was his Lord and his God. Thomas did not say, “the Lord God”. He was merely recognizing Christ as his personal Lord and his personal God. This scripture alone might make a person think that Christ is God, but when taken in context to the remainder of scripture it cannot because that interpretation contradicts what many other scripture expressly state regarding Christ relationship to the Father. Christ said to Mary he was returning to his God and his Father. John 20:17 Christ is expressly stating that the Father is not only his Father, but his God. This scripture contradicts the trinity teaching that Christ and the Father are co-equal. This truth is abundant in the Gospel of John. There are many more scriptures that give specific insight to Christ relationship with his Father. In John 5:30 Jesus states I can of mine own self do nothing. Christ said in himself he could do nothing, but Christ taught that with God all things are possible. When Christ said he could do nothing in himself he was making it clear that he was not God. If he is not God, he cannot be eternal, or self-existent as the Father. Christ said that he lived by the Father, he was dependent on the Father. One
that is dependent on another cannot be God because God is fully self-existent and self-sufficient in himself. There are so many scriptures that bring out these truths that any believer could find with ease. Read the Gospel of John. The Father gave the spirit not by measure to the Son. The Father giveth the Son all things. Its always the Father giving to the Son. Why? Because Christ is completely dependent on the Father. If Christ had to receive all that he had from the Father then he must not of had all things prior, otherwise it would have been pointless to give all things to him. Christ authority was from the Father. Becoming our Savior, Christ said was not his will but the Father's will. Paul the Apostle states in Corinthians that God is the head of Christ. No such statements are ever made with respect to the Father having a Father. He that has a head cannot be God. Again, this contradicts the trinity teaching because it states that the Father and the Son are equal and co-existent eternally. The Father is clearly his God, not just his Father. It was the Father that gave Christ the power to create all things. Later we see that Christ uses his relationship with his Father to teach his own relationship with his disciples.

Hebrews 1:8 says “But unto the Son he saith, thy throne oh God…” Here, the Father says to his Son, thy throne oh God. The key is the Father is speaking to his Son. Christ exaltation came from his Father. Hebrews says he glorified not himself to become our high priest. It was God that glorified Christ.

All of the names given to Christ were just that-they were given to him because as Christ said he pleased the Father in all things. Christ even said that he was under commandment from the Father. He that is under the command of another cannot be God. Paul states that Christ was “made” a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, not having father or mother, without beginning of days or end of life. This is very insightful to understanding God's work in Christ. The Father has given all things to the Son. He has even granted to Christ his eternality in representing us before him. The scripture says the Lord swore and will not repent thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. When did God state this? We don't know. We just know that he decreed it at some specific point in time before the foundation of the world. If Christ was already our high priest this would have been completely unnecessary. Like Paul said if the first covenant was good there would not have been the necessity of a change to a new covenant. Christ was granted Lordship over heaven and earth because he pleased the Father in all things. (Hebrews teaches about being treated as the sons of God if we endure chastening.) In Revelation we see the God personified in the person of Christ including the name the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the Word of God. How did he get those names? He said I have been given all things from my Father. Also, in Isaiah 9:6 we see God declaring what names he would be given. Revelation says he has a certain name that no one knows.

Finally, Christ said he was with the Father before the foundation of the world. When exactly? We don't know. But that does not make Christ eternal. Remember, Christ said to the Pharisees and Scribes that ye are of your father the devil who was a liar from the “Beginning” That statement certainly does not teach that the Devil is eternal, only that he was with the Father from the Beginning. We have little or no information from scripture on what occurred before the foundation of the world, but we do know that Christ was there with his Father because he stated so in John 17, but he did not say he was eternally with his Father. He was with the Father, but he was not God. Christ said he received all things from his Father and his God and he will always be subject to his father even in the world to come. I Cor. 15:28.

July 11, 2007 at 3:14 am#59168

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 10 2007,23:29)

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

NASB – “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NIV – “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
AMP – I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord God, He Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty (the Ruler of all).
HCSB – “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the One who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”

John was speaking in 1:7. No reason to assume that this verse belongs to Yeshua, especially since “Almighty” was never attributed to him.

Quote

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last?

“I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

Your base verse fell short of proving Yeshua, the rest merely affirm God. Thanks.

Quote

Turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”

Is “first and last” a title? Some would have us think so, but can it be something else?

1 Cor 15:45 – So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL ” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Beyond that, since it is well established that Yeshua existed as the Word with God, “first and the last” can also be applied to him.

Quote

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Are you still using this verse to try to prove Yeshua is God? The winepress belongs to God, Yeshua is the one who is trampling the “bad grapes”. Please read carefully.

Quote

Isa 9:6 also describes Jesus as The mighty God

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Almighty > Mighty. Besides, “his name shall be called” means he will have a name that reflects this. Since Yeshua has not any of these in his name, we haven't seen the person spoke of in Isaiah 9:6.

July 11, 2007 at 3:32 am#59169

Participant

My post is not a support of Jehovah Witness theology, it is mere a response to erroneous interpretation. Thanks.

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 10 2007,23:51)

Jesus is Jehovah: The Alpha and Omega: The First and the Last.
(From the cult's own bible, the NWT)

In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God. ”
Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.” Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.

Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

CB, you are guilty of what many JWs seem to do: take one or two verses to build a theology, ignoring context. You need to reread Rev. 12 carefully so you can see what is attribute to who. Revelation moves around alot and it can be difficult to sort out “who's who”.

2 important points here: 1) in verse 12, you find the phrase “My reward is with Me”. This is spoken of YHWH in IS 40:10 & 62:11. 2) the angel who is speaking is doing so on behalf of “the God of the spirits of the prophets” (verse 6). This angel ends his speech in verse 13. John comes in on verses 14-15 and then Yeshua and his angel start in 16.

The rest of your verses have been snipped because you have misapplied them as I have just shown.

Quote

Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18. Again from the Jehovah’s Witnesses own Bible.

Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”

Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last. Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

I certainly don't speak for JWs but if the Word has always been with God and became flesh as Yeshua, then both can be “first and last”.

Quote

Here again we see overwhelming evidence that Jesus is Jehovah God.

Underwhelming for those who care to read contextually.

LG-LP!

July 11, 2007 at 1:03 pm#59204

Cult Buster

Participant

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. Some myopically focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity. When confronted with these truths they then try to “dance around” them.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Some on this forum just want to look at Bible verses that are in the context of Christ mission as Messiah but don't like when shown the multitude of scripture identifying Him as the divine Jehovah God. They wish that He will stay eternally incarnate. For some, this is willful blindness which is sin.

Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”.

However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man or within the context of He being Messiah and High Priest which is still continuing

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

There are some instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.

In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is not yet over.

Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.

Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.

Jesus said.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God

The Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.

Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharisees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.

Jesus could have said “Listen fellas, you misunderstood me. I was not blaspheming by claiming to be God.” But Jesus did not correct them, thus confirming His deity to them.

It seems that the Pharisees had better understanding of Jesus' words than many on this forum.

Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”, referring to Jesus.

The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.

Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.

Jesus said

Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

The right hand of power is metaphor meaning that all authority belongs to Christ. That is all authority. Can you imagine the Godhead relinquishing all their authority to a created being? Of course not! Jesus is Jehovah God.

We can see how self effaci
ng each Person of the Godhead is to be willing to submit one to the other.

We can now understand better Christ’s statement

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.

The apostle Paul understood just who Jesus was when he wrote the following

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Paul had studied the scriptures that testified of Christ.

Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

That is why Paul said

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

We sometimes see statements like

1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah.
In these instances Jesus was either encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is still continuing.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

These verses and others have been utilized historically by the Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), to try to “prove” that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh.

Upon closer inspection, however, a clearer picture emerges.
See the following.

In 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,”

Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Consider the verse
“it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell” (Col. 1:19)
In the KJV the words “the Father” are in italics which means that they were provided by the translators. There is no evidence that they belong there at all. There are no Strongs number because the words do not exist.
See the Literal Translation Bible
Col 1:19 because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him,

MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord(Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

July 11, 2007 at 1:09 pm#59205

Cult Buster

Participant

Jesus is Jehovah

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

July 11, 2007 at 11:15 pm#59255

Participant

Hi CB,
Did not the Son reveal God in him?

July 12, 2007 at 4:53 am#59283

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2007,11:15)

Hi CB,
Did not the Son reveal God in him?

Did the Father reveal the Son in him?

So by your logic here, the Father is not God is he?

July 12, 2007 at 5:18 am#59289

Participant

Hi W,
Scripture does say God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

They expressed together a wonderful union.
Jn 17
” 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. “

He was in the will of God at all times.

Does it say Christ was in God reconciling the world….? No

July 12, 2007 at 11:11 am#59308

Cult Buster

Participant

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

July 12, 2007 at 7:07 pm#59366

Participant

Hi CB,
You miss the wood for the trees.
Jesus is not our God but the Son of God.
He said so and we really should believe him.

July 13, 2007 at 12:07 am#59406

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 12 2007,23:11)

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Haha, what's funny about this post is quoting 2 Timothy 4:3-4. The Trinity doctrine was written well after Paul wrote these words. Makes ya think, doesn't it?

Physician, heal thyself. :;):

July 13, 2007 at 6:57 am#59460

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,12:07)

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 12 2007,23:11)

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Haha, what's funny about this post is quoting 2 Timothy 4:3-4. The Trinity doctrine was written well after Paul wrote these words. Makes ya think, doesn't it?

Physician, heal thyself. :;):

kejohn

Study history!

You statement is untrue!

The trinity was preached by many of the early Fathers.

Ignatius a disciple of the beloved Apostle John wrote…

Estimated Range of Dating: 105-115 C.E.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

Being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and *Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace*.

Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves *by the blood of God* (see Acts 20:28), ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you.

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

We have also as a Physician *the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, Or, “before the ages. but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh. John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians

For they *alienate Christ from the Father*, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; *and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists*. Some of them say that *the Son is a mere man*, and that *the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person*, and that *the creation is the work of God, not by Christ*, but by some other strange power.

July 13, 2007 at 9:29 pm#59544

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,18:57)

kejohn

Study history!

You statement is untrue!

The trinity was preached by many of the early Fathers.

Ignatius a disciple of the beloved Apostle John wrote…

Estimated Range of Dating: 105-115 C.E.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves *by the blood of God* (see Acts 20:28), ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians

WJ,

My statement is untrue in what way? I said “The Trinity doctrine was written well after Paul wrote these words.”

Titus was written around 66-67 AD. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians was written around 105-115 AD (according to your post). Which predated which?

Are you sure you have the Trallians quote right? I did not see any of this in his epistle to the Trallians.

Besides, I don't see Trinity here. I see Binitarianism. Who added the Holy Spirit?

Why did you highlight part of the Trallians epistle (which I think is not right, check again). Are we to believe an extra-biblical doctrine, or the one that is in our Bibles?

Ignatius also said in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid

Methinks he places too much in the authority of men. Did not Christ die so there would be no more of this type of thing? I don't haveto go to another man to seek approval of God. Yeshua is my intercessor. But that is for another subject.

July 13, 2007 at 9:48 pm#59548

Is 1:18

Participant

Kejohn,
Which of the early church Fathers has a christology that neatly aligns with yours?

July 13, 2007 at 11:41 pm#59571

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Are we meant to follow them?

July 14, 2007 at 6:47 pm#59700