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Hi w,
You say
“But no he is not the Father he is the 2nd person of the Godhead.”
Where is this multiperson godhead in scripture?
God is one.
God has a son.
God filled him with His Spirit.But no he is not the Father he is the 2nd person of the Godhead.
*****************Typical response from someone who follows traditions and documents of men!
WJ – this language you are speaking is not even Biblical – has that dawned on you? What is this 2nd person? What is this godhead? Where can I find this truth you follow in scripture. If you take scripture as literally as you can (I've heard you say), then please man, tell me where you find this vocabulary?I say this with respect for you, WJ, I really do. We are both trying to please God and know him better. Otherwise we would be doing something else with our precious time. Speaking of which, I'm off to cook dinner……I'll be pondering things you have brought here this afternoon. I give thought to all responses.
Have a good dinner!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,00:50) Not3in1 Make up your mind.
Everything is everything. All power is All power and Jesus has it. You ever think of how much power that is?
**********
WJ – obviously you cannot grasp my point. Do me the honor of pondering it for a while and see if anything comes to you? And I will ponder “how much power” Jesus has.
Not3in1Grasped your point?
I dont think you grasped mine!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,00:57) But no he is not the Father he is the 2nd person of the Godhead.
*****************Typical response from someone who follows traditions and documents of men!
WJ – this language you are speaking is not even Biblical – has that dawned on you? What is this 2nd person? What is this godhead? Where can I find this truth you follow in scripture. If you take scripture as literally as you can (I've heard you say), then please man, tell me where you find this vocabulary?I say this with respect for you, WJ, I really do. We are both trying to please God and know him better. Otherwise we would be doing something else with our precious time. Speaking of which, I'm off to cook dinner……I'll be pondering things you have brought here this afternoon. I give thought to all responses.
Have a good dinner!
Not3in1I have shown you but you have denied the scriptures.
You have put a humanistic interpretation on scripture by making the WordGod a “thought or a plan”.
Where is this in scripture?
Grasped your point?
I dont think you grasped mine!
********Nanny-nanny-boo-boo to you, too! Ha! I'm kidding, of course. You just always seem to need to defend yourself. It's kind of like my kids say, “I know you are, but what am I?” sort of thing.
Isn't the fact that I am going to ponder what you have said good enough without the jabs? I hope it's good enough in the future. Relax, will ya?Humanistic view – hello – I'm human. I don't apologize for my style of writing or response. We can't all be like you, WJ. Besides, doesn't it make it more interesting around here to have all types of people responding? I think so.
I ordered a pizza for dinner. This is more fun!
Ha…..it's good to laugh at yourself every now and then,isn't it?. It just dawned on me why it irritates me when WJ does his “tit-for-tat” routine. It bothers me because I do it too, and that has always bugged me about myself
Oh, pride! Forgive me, WJ? It's who we are. I guess I'll just quit pointing it out and join in the fun
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,01:26) Grasped your point? I dont think you grasped mine!
********Nanny-nanny-boo-boo to you, too! Ha! I'm kidding, of course. You just always seem to need to defend yourself. It's kind of like my kids say, “I know you are, but what am I?” sort of thing.
Isn't the fact that I am going to ponder what you have said good enough without the jabs? I hope it's good enough in the future. Relax, will ya?Humanistic view – hello – I'm human. I don't apologize for my style of writing or response. We can't all be like you, WJ. Besides, doesn't it make it more interesting around here to have all types of people responding? I think so.
I ordered a pizza for dinner. This is more fun!
Not3in1This is a very mature and loving response?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,02:14) Ha…..it's good to laugh at yourself every now and then,isn't it?. It just dawned on me why it irritates me when WJ does his “tit-for-tat” routine. It bothers me because I do it too, and that has always bugged me about myself Oh, pride! Forgive me, WJ? It's who we are. I guess I'll just quit pointing it out and join in the fun
Not3in1HMM.
Apologise for making a stab and then negate it by making another?
You dont know me. How do you compare me to yourself?
No we are not alike. You know nothing of my relationship with Jesus.
You and I have agreed we dont serve the same Jesus.
As you have said God knows our hearts, and out of the abundance of the heart the mouth will speak!
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 21 2007,20:29) Hi Is 1:18 According to your post he is either God or a false God… what happened to Son of God??
Hugs
Phoenix
I think the rules of the debate prevent me from elaborating on any aspect of my post until the debate itself has been completed, so I'll ask you a question:For what reason(s) is Yeshua called “Son of God”?
Can you give me a scriptural answer to that?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,00:47) The RSV puts 1 John 5:20 this way: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,
to know him who is true;
and we are in him who is true,
in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.
*********
We are “in” him who is true (God) BECAUSE we are “in” Christ. See, earlier in the story, we were told that “God” is the true one. We were told that “God” is the only true God and eternity. So we are careful to keep the players seperate so we can gather the correct meaning.
It's really up to interpretation, WJ. That is why you can have 4 different churches on the only intersection of a town the size of quarter. You'll have a Catholic church, an Assembly of God, a JW church, and for sure a Baptist church —- all with 5 people each in them! In my travels, I've seen it happen, believe me, it's not so incrediable. Sad, but true.
Not3in1Yea. Whats the difference?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,00:47) The RSV puts 1 John 5:20 this way: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,
to know him who is true;
and we are in him who is true,
in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.
*********
We are “in” him who is true (God) BECAUSE we are “in” Christ. See, earlier in the story, we were told that “God” is the true one. We were told that “God” is the only true God and eternity. So we are careful to keep the players seperate so we can gather the correct meaning.
It's really up to interpretation, WJ. That is why you can have 4 different churches on the only intersection of a town the size of quarter. You'll have a Catholic church, an Assembly of God, a JW church, and for sure a Baptist church —- all with 5 people each in them! In my travels, I've seen it happen, believe me, it's not so incrediable. Sad, but true.
Not3in1John tells us who this “Eternal life” is.
Jn 5:20…….This the true God and *Eternal life*
1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (John 1:1)
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that **eternal life**, which **was with the Father**, and was manifested unto us;)Compare this to John 1:1 and John 20:28. Then with that in mind look at Jn 17:3…
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is interpreting scripture with scripture.
Selah
You see what you want to see.
Pride in your stance hardens your heart to see the truth in scripture.
But some people actually let scripture teach them and they form their beliefs from there. Others start with a belief system and use scripture to justify it.
Most cults and denominations work this way and it is why they are divided.
The only true unity is in truth and love.
You need both.
Quote but there is only One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable. Based on the Bible and the meaning of “god,” you are wrong Is 1:18.
Because if what you say is true, then the angels are false gods (mighty ones). The judges of Israel who were called gods (mighty ones) weren't really mighty ones.
And Satan who is called a god (mighty one) isn't really mighty or powerful at all. (Of course, compared to Jehovah, he isn't powerful. But compared to us, he is the ruler of the world, who has blinded the world. He has power and is mighty. Hence, the word fits.)Thos idols who were gods who had ears but couldn't hear, and eyes, but couldn't see, of course had no power. They were powerless. They weren't gods at all. Hence, false gods.
Compared to Jehovah, the only true God, the only one who is every specifically described as Almighty, everyone else is below him in mightiness.
So to Jesus, the Father was God. To the Father, Jesus is not God. But to us, he certainly could be described with that word, and is.The problem with your reasoning is that it doesn't take into account what the actual word means and doesn't take into account the other biblical uses of that word.
Your conclusions are wrong.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2007,06:17) You see what you want to see. Pride in your stance hardens your heart to see the truth in scripture.
But some people actually let scripture teach them and they form their beliefs from there. Others start with a belief system and use scripture to justify it.
Most cults and denominations work this way and it is why they are divided.
The only true unity is in truth and love.
You need both.
t8All I quote is scripture t8 and show how they relate letting them interpret themselves and you say this is pride.
I am doing what you condemn me of not doing.
This is not pride t8, this is confidence in what is written.
Thats what this forum is about to share scripture, is it not?
You talk about division, you got all kinds of henotheistic and Arianistic, and Unitarian belief systems going on here.
Thing is no body calls it out because as long as they are “not Trinitarian” its ok.
How many believe Jesus had a beginning, or he didnt exist before the incarnation, or the Word is a thought or plan, or he was the female wisdom spoken of in proverbs, or Jesus was the angel Gabriel, or David will rule again, or the spirit is an it, or you should keep the sabboth, or not celebrate holidays, or Jesus is a god, etc etc etc.
So I see no fruit of unity here, do you?
One concordance gives the meaning of elohim this way: “Elohim, G-d (plural of majesty; plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); g-ds (true grammatical plural); and person characterized by greatness of power, mighty one, great one, judge” (Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance).
The word God applies to Jehovah, thousands of times. About 1000 times his is specifically called God. We know he is God. The word “God” essentially means: “Mighty one.” We know Jehovah, as our creator, is mighty, in fact, he is called ALMIGHTY. His son, is mighty as well, obviously. And therefore the title God can be applied to him, even as it is applied to human judges of isreal, and to angels and to Satan himself and to other false “mighty ones.” A piece of wood can be worshipped as an idol, a god, but really, it is not mighty at all, not really a god, it's false.
Just because Jehovah and Jesus both have the titles God, along with others, does not mean that Jesus is God almighty, that they are the same.
IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.
ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS?
(OR, PERHAP'S ARE THEY ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS?–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.)People associate the word “true” with “false” meaning that one is “correct” and one is “incorrect.” Jehovah is the correct God and everyone else is false therefore. But those words (TRUE AND FALSE) have other meanings.
A group of guys are hanging out. Out of all of them, Ted is the only true man there. Does this mean the rest are girls? Or what? Could it be that the rest are quite young? Yes, it could. But, for some reason, when we hear the expression, the “only true God” we take it to mean that anyone else that is called “god” is a false god, meaning, not really a god at all.
When I say that Ted is the only true man, it doesn’t mean that everyone else there are “false” men, does it? We wouldn’t go around calling those boys “false” men. They are simply not truly men! Why is this difficult to understand?
Someone could call them men. But they are not truly men, in the ultimate sense of the word. Ted is the only true man, comparatively speaking.Jehovah is the only true God, in comparison to all others. Yet, that doesn't make the judges of Israel false gods. They truly were mighty ones, with great power (compared to others)
This thinking by Is 1:18 and others isn't really Biblical, nor does it consider the meaning of Elohim:
Quote but there is only One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable. (Psalm 115:3-7) “But our God is in the heavens; Everything that he delighted [to do] he has done. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat.”
So, these things are worshipped as God, yet they are not “god” in any sense. They have absolutely no power, no might, nothing.
(Deuteronomy 4:28) “And there YOU will have to serve gods, the product of the hands of man, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.”
False gods seem to be things that are worshiped, yet really have no power, really aren't “gods” at all.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 22 2007,05:23) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 21 2007,20:29) Hi Is 1:18 According to your post he is either God or a false God… what happened to Son of God??
Hugs
Phoenix
I think the rules of the debate prevent me from elaborating on any aspect of my post until the debate itself has been completed, so I'll ask you a question:For what reason(s) is Yeshua called “Son of God”?
Can you give me a scriptural answer to that?
Grrrrr!!!!John 3!!!!
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Is this reason good enough for you??
I googled “true.”
I found true poker, true love, true wealth, true color, etc.
Does that mean that other poker is false?
That other love is false?
That other wealth is false?Much of this has to do with the erroneous idea that if something is called the “only true” whatever, everything else of that bunch is false.
Quote # Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)? # Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
# Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
# Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
# Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
# Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
If I said: “Is 1:18, now there's a true man. He is forceful in his convictions, etc. He's the only true man on here.”
People would understand what I'm saying. They wouldn't think that everyone else is a “false man.” They wouldn't think that I, the one saying it is implying that I, myself am a false man.A group of guys are hanging out. Out of all of them, Ted is the only true man there. Does this mean the rest are girls? Or what? Could it be that the rest are quite young? Yes, it could. But, for some reason, when we hear the expression, the “only true God” we take it to mean that anyone else that is called “god” is a false god, meaning, not really a god at all.
When I say that Ted is the only true man, it doesn’t mean that everyone else there are “false” men, does it? We wouldn’t go around calling those boys “false” men. They are simply not truly men! Why is this difficult to understand?
Someone could call them men. But they are not truly men, in the ultimate sense of the word. Ted is the only true man, comparatively speaking.Yet, the false conclusion is made and presented as fact that if Jehovah is called the only true God, Jesus must either:
1. be a false god
2. be JehovahThe error in this is twofold: it would mean that the Israelite Judges, the angels, anyone called a god is a false god or Jehovah and secondly, it misses the meaning of the word “god.”
Hi W,
You say
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.This is interpreting scripture with scripture.”
Quite so-two beings.
To WorshippingJesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 23 2007,02:22) t8 All I quote is scripture t8 and show how they relate letting them interpret themselves and you say this is pride.
I am doing what you condemn me of not doing.
This is not pride t8, this is confidence in what is written.
You have no confidence in John 17:3.You change the meaning to fit your theology.
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