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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2007,14:51) Nick, you say that Jesus is the Son of God alone. What makes you think this? Jesus is the Son of God AND of man, is he not?
Hi not3,
He preferred to be known as son of man aligning himself as a man with us, sharing completely in our estate.
He needed to be the son of David, a prophet, messiah and truly a man to fulfill all prophecy
He did occasionally admit also to being the son of God though that made people want to kill him.
Those with spiritual eyes, prophets, even demons, recognised his previous estate as the monogenes Son.
As a spirit being like to God he was soul\spirit so to become man he had to be integrated in flesh too.
God made him just like us to forge for us the possibility of eternal life with Him.Those with spiritual eyes, prophets, even demons, recognised his previous estate as the monogenes Son.
As a spirit being like to God he was soul\spirit so to become man he had to be integrated in flesh too.
God made him just like us to forge for us the possibility of eternal life with Him.
*******************************The demons said Jesus was the Son of God, and that is all. They did not allude to any pre-existence that I am aware of.
So now Jesus was just 'integrated' into mankind…..oh my goodness. Nick, where do you get these ideas?
God made him just like us so that he could be the first of many brothers.
Tell me, if Jesus was integrated from a spirit being who was already formed, and he is the first of many brothers (you and me), how are we to relate to this Jesus? I was not integrated from anything before I was born, and neither were you!
Jesus said that we have the same Father, indeed, we have the same God. We are even co-heirs with Jesus. Jesus has put himself on par with us….calling us his brothers. If he pre-existed, and already was a person before his birth, he is not on par with us. I don't care if he just “took on” flesh. This Jesus you preach would be an imposter to me. I'm sorry. But that is how I feel. I do not believe the scriptures teach that Jesus was a person before he was born. Not clearly. Not plainly. Not like you are asking Tim2 for those clear verses of the Trinity – you will not find clear verses like that to say that Jesus was a person before he existed. Those scriptures do not exist. If they do, please teach me, and help me see the error in my thinking.
Not3in1, your speculation means nothing if it contradicts scriptures that clearly say that he existed before partaking the flesh.
Here is a list of scriptures that you have to edit or delete in order to teach that he didn't exist and have glory before he came to earth as a man.
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm
As you will see there are quite a number of scriptures that teach that he existed before coming to us. You might be able to explain some of them away and make it look credible, but I would like to see you explain them all away.
However such an explanation should be posted to a discussion that is based on that subject. It doesn't belong here because this discussion is about John 17:3 specifically.
t8, I will take a look at all these verses, thank you.
I see that the topci has wondered many times off the subject intended…. sorry for contributing to that!
t8, while I have you here…….I just printed off all the verses regarding pre-existence that you lead me to. Did you write this? Will I be reading your conclusions regarding these verses?
I'll look for a board that deals with this topic of pre-existence, and post after I investigate all these scriptures given. Thanks for this opportunity.
t8, actually I just went to the pre-existence board and read for quite a while. A lot of my understanding of scripture has already been presented there. And more eloquently, I might add. So, I doubt that anything I have to say will make any difference. But thanks for the scriptures – I'll study them
t8
Quote Quote (Not3in1 @ April 11 2007,09:50) Nick and t8 – I do not agree with you brothers, I'm sorry. In your view, Mary was just the body that produced something that was already existing. This does not follow the conception and birth story. This is not what is written. Furthermore, it makes a mockery out of family, and how we produce after our own kind. Why would God do that?
God did that so the Word could become flesh.T8. Who was the Word that became flesh?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Yes! Jesus is the Word that became flesh.
” and the Word was God” John 1:1
“Father, . . . this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:1-3)
NE reads “who alone art truly God.” He cannot be “the only true God,” the one “who alone [is] truly God,” if there are two others who are God to the same degree as he is, can he? Any others referred to as “gods” must be either false or merely a reflection of the true God.
1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
Repeatedly, even following Jesus’ ascension to heaven, the Scriptures refer to the Father as “the God” of Jesus Christ.
At John 20:17, following Jesus’ resurrection, he himself spoke of the Father as “my God.” Later, when in heaven, as recorded at Revelation 3:12, he again used the same expression. But never in the Bible is the Father reported to refer to the Son as “my God,” nor does either the Father or the Son refer to the holy spirit as “my God.”
Hi Cult Buster.
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 11 2007,14:16) t8 Quote Quote (Not3in1 @ April 11 2007,09:50) Nick and t8 – I do not agree with you brothers, I'm sorry. In your view, Mary was just the body that produced something that was already existing. This does not follow the conception and birth story. This is not what is written. Furthermore, it makes a mockery out of family, and how we produce after our own kind. Why would God do that?
God did that so the Word could become flesh.T8. Who was the Word that became flesh?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Yes! Jesus is the Word that became flesh.
” and the Word was God” John 1:1
Is John 1:1 the main scripture that teaches the Trinity to you?If so, then maybe if Isaiah doesn't use that scripture in the debate section, I could debate it with you if you are interested.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2007,09:42) Hi Tim2, I believe Jesus is the literal Son of God. To my knowledge, I am the only one who believes this way on this board? … He is my literal brother (I'm adopted – he is a genuine Son). Hope this helps.
Heh sis!
I believe that Jesus is GOD's literal son too!When the Bible calls Mary, the mother of Jesus …
I believe that … literally!!
There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. Some myopically focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity. When confronted with these truths they then try to “dance around” them.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Some on this forum just want to look at Bible verses that are in the context of Christ mission as Messiah but don't like when shown the multitude of scripture identifying Him as the divine Jehovah God. They wish that He will stay eternally incarnate. For some, this is willful blindness which is sin.
Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”.
However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man or within the context of He being Messiah and High Priest which is still continuing
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among usThere are some instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.
In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.
Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.
Jesus said.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God
The Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.
Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharisees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.
Jesus could have said “Listen fellas, you misunderstood me. I was not blaspheming by claiming to be God.” But Jesus did not correct them, thus confirming His deity to them.
It seems that the Pharisees had better understanding of Jesus' words than many on this forum.
Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”, referring to Jesus.
However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man.
The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.
Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.
Jesus said
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
The right hand of power is metaphor meaning that all authority belongs to Christ. That is all authority. Can you imagine the Godhead relinquishing all their authority to a created being? Of course not! Jesus is Jehovah God.
We can see how self effacing each Person of the Godhead is to be willing to submit one to the other.
We can now understand better Christ’s statement
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.
The apostle Paul understood just who Jesus was when he wrote the following
1Co 10:4 And did all
drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Paul had studied the scriptures that testified of Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.That is why Paul said
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
We sometimes see statements like
1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah.
In these instances Jesus was either encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is still continuing.Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.(Colossians 3:11)
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord(Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Adam Pastor – thank you! I was beginning to think I was out in left field. It's good to know there is someone else out in left field to chat with now and then
I am studying t8's pre-existence scriptures this morning. I'll be posting on that board sooner or later with some comments (not that those comments haven't been voiced before), but we all have a tiny bit of a different perspective, and sometimes that helps. Good to hear from you!Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2007,15:45) Those with spiritual eyes, prophets, even demons, recognised his previous estate as the monogenes Son.
As a spirit being like to God he was soul\spirit so to become man he had to be integrated in flesh too.
God made him just like us to forge for us the possibility of eternal life with Him.
*******************************The demons said Jesus was the Son of God, and that is all. They did not allude to any pre-existence that I am aware of.
So now Jesus was just 'integrated' into mankind…..oh my goodness. Nick, where do you get these ideas?
God made him just like us so that he could be the first of many brothers.
Tell me, if Jesus was integrated from a spirit being who was already formed, and he is the first of many brothers (you and me), how are we to relate to this Jesus? I was not integrated from anything before I was born, and neither were you!
Jesus said that we have the same Father, indeed, we have the same God. We are even co-heirs with Jesus. Jesus has put himself on par with us….calling us his brothers. If he pre-existed, and already was a person before his birth, he is not on par with us. I don't care if he just “took on” flesh. This Jesus you preach would be an imposter to me. I'm sorry. But that is how I feel. I do not believe the scriptures teach that Jesus was a person before he was born. Not clearly. Not plainly. Not like you are asking Tim2 for those clear verses of the Trinity – you will not find clear verses like that to say that Jesus was a person before he existed. Those scriptures do not exist. If they do, please teach me, and help me see the error in my thinking.
Hi not3,
Man is an integrated being.
Body soul spirit.
Remove any one and the being is not man.
Yet God refers to man as dust from which flesh alone derives.[Gen2,3]
So that since Christ partook of flesh, by God's definition he is man, no matter his divine origins.The Lord “formed” Adam out of dust and breathed life into him.
Women was “made” from the rib of Adam (not dust).Jesus was begotten.
Anyway, I don't want to get in trouble for not staying on topic, which is John 17:3.
OK, back on topic then.
“Jesus was sent by the ONLY TRUE GOD.”
You either believe that he was sent by the true God, or he is the true God. You can't have it both ways.
Trinitarians are very good at saying one thing and believing another.
E.g.,
- There is one God, he just happens to triune.
- He was a man, and did I mention that on the side he was also God Almighty.
- He created everything and God also created everything through him.
Yeah right!
Man you need to read the small print sometimes.
Trintarians listen up. The time has come to put away your nonsense. We can see right through it and we are going to tell the Church the truth. You can't stop the truth just as much as you cannot overcome light with darkness.
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