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t8. Do you believe what the following scripture is saying?
“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 09 2007,10:42) The Only True God Since the one true God exists as a Godhead this means that the three Persons can be addressed as the only true God both individually and collectively. Putting it another way:
. The Godhead is the only true God.
· Each specific member of the Godhead is the only true God.
· Therefore, the members of the Godhead are the only true God, whether individually or collectively.This is why Jesus can speak of one member of the Godhead as the only true God without this implying that the other members are not God. To make this point more clear, notice what the inspired book of Hebrews says:
“But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.’ He also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’” Hebrews 1:8-12
The Father praises his Son by calling him God, Lord, eternal King and for being the Creator and Sustainer of all creation!
Scriptures also teaches that Jesus is the only sovereign Master and Lord:“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”
Jude 1:4Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Now does this mean that the Father is not God, sovereign Master, Lord, and the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The answer is obvious.
The Father, according to the Holy Bible, is just as much God, Master, Lord, and just as responsible for creating and sustaining the universe as the Son is.
In a similar way, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the only true God.
Hi CB.It doesn't say that the only true God sent the only true God as can be derived from your interpretation. The truth is that the only true God sent his son it's that simple. The text is plain and I would take care in how it is interpreted because it is eternal life to know the true God and his son.
We also know that for is believers there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Not one God the Father, Son, and Spirit as what you are promoting.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.The only conclusion is that there is one God and he has a son who is the son of God. But how our adversary subtly changes that.
Also did you not know that the title 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in reference to the Father, son, angels, men. So that certainly blows your assumptions out of the water. For angels are not the one true God and neither are they false gods. So when we see the word 'theos' or 'elohim' we should check the context as it is not exclusively applied to the Almighty.
If the Trinity doctrine were correct as you say, there would be no contradiction with scripture. However it seems to work with some verses (although that doesn't make it the correct interpretation), but the bigger problem for a Trinitarian trying to harmise scripture is that there are many where that doctrine actually breaks scripture.
In the field of Science at least that would make the theory less credible to not true.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2007,11:55) Hi CB,
Do you have other masters and lords than Christ?
Hi Nick.Yet I would imagine that he also says that the Father is his master. If that was the case he would go against his own interpretation.
Of course there is one God over all. That includes over all masters, lords, angels, men, and the universe.
Below him is the Lord, lords, Archangels, angels, apostles, prophets, judges, world leaders etc.
A play on words can make Jesus to be anything that a man desires, i.e., a man, divine, even a demon or mad man, for scripture says that Christ was all these. But context is everything. When he was called a demon it was from the mouth of Pharisees. See how context is important.
Scripture says that he is both lord and Christ because God made this possible. Of course he didn't make him lord over himself (God).
Same with the Pharaoh and Joseph. He made Joseph lord over the Pharaoh's kingdom. It stands to reason that he was lord over all except the pharaoh himself.
Likewise Jesus is Lord over God's kingdom, but not lord over God himself.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”I cannot see how a Trinitarian believes this and hundreds of other scriptures.
Hi T8,
It appears that their mission is not a sincere effort to find truth
but an attempt to muddy the waters in favour of their deception
to please their real lord and master.They certainly muddy the waters that is for sure.
But hopefully most readers here can discern between a pure spring and a stagnant pool.
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 09 2007,10:49) t8. Do you believe what the following scripture is saying? “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
Yes CB, he is the Lord and he is our master. God appointed him as our Lord after all.But I don't believe that he is also the God that made him Lord.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”To WorshippingJesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,12:31) Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:12) To WorshippingJesus. As Christians we should be doing what 2 Corinthians 10:5 says:
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.It is not good to try and demolish people themselves, insult them, or say that what they do or did is crap. We are not suppose to judge in such a manner.
Let me remind you of what scripture teaches us:
Matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.Luke 6:37
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.So therefore it seems to me that for every appointment that you have been late to, God has the right to say it was crap. That is the measure you have set for yourself. As you can see, you are only making things harder for yourself and you are actually blessing me for the following reason:
Matthew 5:11
- “Blessed are you when people insult you,
- persecute you
- and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
So every time you insult me and tell me that what I do or did was crap, you judge yourself and you bless me. And I also take comfort in the fact that this man who opposes me is a man who displays this kind of character. If you were a holy man, I would take your words more seriously, but we know them by their fruit don't we.
t8Thats hillarious.
Yes we do know them by their fruit.
Especially when they call another brother a Pig!
Put down the holier than thouugh attitude t8. You are no persecuted saint here.
It only shows your pride for not admitting you were wrong.
Typical is it not? When you know you are wrong you try the old blame shift game and rather than apologise you say well you are bad too. Sort of like what happened with Adam and Eve. “the woman gave me the fruit and I ate”, “the serpent tricked me”. You know blame it on the other guy.
Anyway, I repeat that I have never called you a pig and to say I did is false witness isn't it. But you did say that my late post was crap and you did paint me in a bad light because of this and I have correctly pointed out that this means that you have set this measurement for yourself on judgement day. Of course you can always apologise and admit you were harsh in your judgement and I am sure that God would respect this and it would be better for you.
So, what I quoted was a scripture. It is a fact that scripture says that swine trample pearls underfoot. I didn't say it, I repeated it. It is scripture. Here is the proof.
Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.Your argument is with Matthew and the one who inspired him, not me.
Now I don't think my post is actually hilarious, but I do think it is a little funny in a certain way regarding how you attack me personally and do not give an answer to scripture and what I have written.
Again you say I called you a pig, when all I did was quote the scripture for good reason, and yet look at the way you are acting toward me. It looks like you are trying to tear me to pieces. Isn't that ironic.
What you should be doing is quoting scripture to show that what I say is not true if indeed that is the case. But your actions toward me and lack of scriptures in defense of what I have written speaks volumes.
Yes your actions may be suspicious, but I do not pass judgement on you and call you a pig or a dog. If you are, then that is for you to find out and to fix or let the Lord fix. I certainly know little about you apart from the fact that I think you do trample truths under your foot. But I do not know you well enough to consider you a pig or a dog.
Personally speaking I would prefer you to be a noble man or at least a man who seeks to be noble, and I certainly encourage you to produce the fruits of God's Spirit.
David
Quote Quote (Cult Buster @ April 09 2007,10:49) t8. Do you believe what the following scripture is saying? “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
Yes CB, he is the Lord and he is our master. God appointed him as our Lord after all.But I don't believe that he is also the God that made him Lord.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”David you have sidestepped my question. Now answer this.
Do you believe Jude 1:4 where it describes Jesus as our only Master and Lord?
“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
Hi CB,
The One true God is the Master and Lord of Jesus
but Jesus is the level of authority immediately above us.1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.Quote (Cult Buster @ April 10 2007,13:25) David Quote Quote (Cult Buster @ April 09 2007,10:49) t8. Do you believe what the following scripture is saying? “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
Yes CB, he is the Lord and he is our master. God appointed him as our Lord after all.But I don't believe that he is also the God that made him Lord.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”David you have sidestepped my question. Now answer this.
Do you believe Jude 1:4 where it describes Jesus as our only Master and Lord?
“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4
If you are talking to me, then I say that I have no choice but to believe it. After all it is scripture.God made him Lord of all. That is also scripture. Not a contradiction, but both work together in harmony as the truth should.
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2007,16:58) Quote (Cult Buster @ April 09 2007,10:42) The Only True God Since the one true God exists as a Godhead this means that the three Persons can be addressed as the only true God both individually and collectively. Putting it another way:
. The Godhead is the only true God.
· Each specific member of the Godhead is the only true God.
· Therefore, the members of the Godhead are the only true God, whether individually or collectively.This is why Jesus can speak of one member of the Godhead as the only true God without this implying that the other members are not God. To make this point more clear, notice what the inspired book of Hebrews says:
“But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.’ He also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’” Hebrews 1:8-12
The Father praises his Son by calling him God, Lord, eternal King and for being the Creator and Sustainer of all creation!
Scriptures also teaches that Jesus is the only sovereign Master and Lord:“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”
Jude 1:4Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Now does this mean that the Father is not God, sovereign Master, Lord, and the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The answer is obvious.
The Father, according to the Holy Bible, is just as much God, Master, Lord, and just as responsible for creating and sustaining the universe as the Son is.
In a similar way, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the only true God.
Hi CB.It doesn't say that the only true God sent the only true God as can be derived from your interpretation. The truth is that the only true God sent his son it's that simple. The text is plain and I would take care in how it is interpreted because it is eternal life to know the true God and his son.
We also know that for is believers there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Not one God the Father, Son, and Spirit as what you are promoting.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.The only conclusion is that there is one God and he has a son who is the son of God. But how our adversary subtly changes that.
Also did you not know that the title 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in reference to the Father, son, angels, men. So that certainly blows your assumptions out of the water. For angels are not the one true God and neither are they false gods. So when we see the word 'theos' or 'elohim' we should check the context as it is not exclusively applied to the Almighty.
If the Trinity doctrine were correct as you say, there would be no contradiction with scripture. However it seems to work with some verses (although that doesn't make it the correct interpretation), but the bigger problem for a Trinitarian trying to harmise scripture is that there are many where that doctrine actually breaks scripture.
In the field of Science at least that would make the theory less credible to not true.
t8You say…
Quote It doesn't say that the only true God sent the only true God as can be derived from your interpretation. The truth is that the only true God sent his son it's that simple. The text is plain and I would take care in how it is interpreted because it is eternal life to know the true God and his son.
Of course when the Trinitarian view makes sense then rather belive it lets just resort back to missrepresentation of it by calling it “Modalism”.“God could not send God” as if to imply the two persons the Father and the Son are the same person.
If I were you I would take care in how you interpret it in light of John 1:1 which says the Word was God and John 1:14 and Phil 2 which says the Word became flesh.
God did send the Word who was and is the Lord from heaven, God in the flesh.
Your interpretation of John 17:3 in light of these scriptures is ambiguous,
Jesus is the “Only Lord and Master”, because the Father,Son and Holy Spirit are One God!
If you want to apply your One God and One Lord rule to the Father and the Son.
Then be consistant. This scripture plainly shows that yeshua is our *One* master and Lord.
Jn 12:14
If I then, your *Lord and Master*, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our *only Master* and Lord, Jesus Christ.Matt 6:24
No man can serve *two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.This leaves you with one option t8, that John 1:1 based on the above scriptures means what it says or you choose not to believe it.
Which is it t8?
Hi W,
Neither should you serve two masters.
Christ is your master and you should serve him as a branch serves the vine.Christ is your head
God is his head of course.1Cor 11
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.And of course the vine serves the Gardener.
You seem to be a slow learner on this matter.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2007,07:02) Hi W,
Neither should you serve two masters.
Christ is your master and you should serve him as a branch serves the vine.Christ is your head
God is his head of course.1Cor 11
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.And of course the vine serves the Gardener.
You seem to be a slow learner on this matter.
NHYou see I believe they are One God, however you dont so you serve two the Father and the Son.
WJ,
How can “they” be “one” God when clearly one of these members has a sing of authority on his head? I've asked this before with no answer given? Thanks.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2007,07:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2007,07:02) Hi W,
Neither should you serve two masters.
Christ is your master and you should serve him as a branch serves the vine.Christ is your head
God is his head of course.1Cor 11
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.And of course the vine serves the Gardener.
You seem to be a slow learner on this matter.
NHYou see I believe they are One God, however you dont so you serve two the Father and the Son.
Hi W,
If you are obedient to the Son of God you are obedient to his Master.
The Son has been given all authority and you should listen to him.
That is why God sent the son to save us so as to achieve unity.
To bring men into unity with Himself in Christ.Not 3in1,
Jesus says they are one in John 10:30. If they're not one God, then what one are they? Everyone who heard Him, by the way, understood Him to mean one God, including when He said it again in John 10:38.
That Jesus has a sign of authority on His head, I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11. That God is the head of Christ means that the Son has subordinated Himself by becoming man, which is inferior to God.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 10 2007,07:25) Not 3in1, Jesus says they are one in John 10:30. If they're not one God, then what one are they? Everyone who heard Him, by the way, understood Him to mean one God, including when He said it again in John 10:38.
That Jesus has a sign of authority on His head, I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11. That God is the head of Christ means that the Son has subordinated Himself by becoming man, which is inferior to God.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
It does not say”one and the same” which many are disappointed about.In many ways I am one with my spouse.
In some ways I am one with my children.
In a few ways I am one with all men.
In other ways I am one with all creation.But you think this must mean that the two, the Father and the Son, are ONE BEING?
Tim2,
Jesus prayed that we would be “one” with the Father. IN THE SAME WAY that Jesus was one with the Father. Does that mean that we are God, too, then?That God is the head of Christ means that the Son has subordinated Himself by becoming man, which is inferior to God.
*****************Do you have a scripture that says this is what Jesus was thinking? And please don't quote Philippians 2 – any others? You cannot look to one passage of scripture to explain a theory such as this. It must be a thread throughout scripture. Most important topics are – salvation, baptism, forgiveness of sins, resurrection and so on. They are not just listed in Philippians 2:6 through whatever. Thanks.
Also, who are you to say that Christ' head only applies to when he became a man. It doesn't say that in that scripture, does it? Read and accept what is written. Keep it simple, keep on track.
Another note here – if you want to take the passage of scripture that tells us that man has a head, and women has a head, and Christ has a head…….and make it mean something totally different for Christ then for the man, and for the women…..can I change what I want my head to mean, please? How about this: I think that the man is the head over the women, only when the man is being masculine, not when they decide
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