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Quote (t8 @ April 02 2007,09:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2007,01:32) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23) I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.
From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.
Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.
After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.
- If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
- If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.
t8Words with no scriptural proof to refute the scriptural truths set before you.
100 verses not enough then?
t8Your 100 verses prove nothing except that Jesus is the Son of God.
Trinitarians believe he is the Son of God. We believe all those verses.
How about the many verses that say Jesus is God, or the 100s that implys he is God?
Do you believe those verses?
No. Yet you wont even give a clear statement as to what you do believe concerning those versus.
t8
I dont care about the three days and Im not saying that you have sinned.
What bothers me is that you took the time and then went back to your proof text, totally ignoring his.
Can you see how I would get upset?
I dont want problems with you t8, but I feel sometimes as I am sure you do that questions do go unanswered as David said.
Quote (t8 @ April 02 2007,09:41) Quote (david @ April 02 2007,15:25) One thing that bothers me so much is that when having a discussion, you ask some questions, they go unanswered, other people raise a completely different issue and the orgininal questions go unasnwered forever. With only two people, it would be much harder to hide behind straw men arguments and other ways to distract or kidnap the discussion.
david, I have been here since 1999 and I have seen many scriptures and good arguments being avoided from that time.When that happens time and time again, it is usually because they don't have an answer. It's their way of saying, “I am stumped”.
t8Is 1:18 gave you an answer but you didnt give him one.
Nor did you give me an answer on my questions.
Quote (david @ April 02 2007,10:02) Quote If you breach the rules, you lose. That's the reality. –Is 1:18
I don't really understand this. T8 loses what exactly? Does this mean that you think that you have “proven” anything?
Question, isn't the truth more important than the actual debate, or the rules of the debate. This all seems sort of childish. I know there were rules. But isn't coming to the actual truth of the matter far more important than breaking the rules you've established? I would think that someone who has the truth would want to discuss this and wouldn't want a forfeit.david
Hi David:I totally agree with you on this one. It is not about winning or losing but about getting understanding of God's Word so that we can teach the Word of God in truth so that the world may see that there is a God and want to be reconciled to him and be saved. This is what it is all about. And, if we find that we have misunderstood the scriptures, we must not let our pride keep us from letting us admit that we were in error and to accept our correction. If we are in error, is it not better that we are corrected so that we can go on with the truth from here?
I pray “my Father and my God please do not let me teach any thing that is not your Word. Correct me quickly if what I am teaching is not the truth”. I don't want to mislead any one, and I do not any one on this forum to mislead any one either because I want God's very best for you.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ April 03 2007,01:10) Quote (david @ April 02 2007,10:02) Quote If you breach the rules, you lose. That's the reality. –Is 1:18
I don't really understand this. T8 loses what exactly? Does this mean that you think that you have “proven” anything?
Question, isn't the truth more important than the actual debate, or the rules of the debate. This all seems sort of childish. I know there were rules. But isn't coming to the actual truth of the matter far more important than breaking the rules you've established? I would think that someone who has the truth would want to discuss this and wouldn't want a forfeit.david
Hi David:I totally agree with you on this one. It is not about winning or losing but about getting understanding of God's Word so that we can teach the Word of God in truth so that the world may see that there is a God and want to be reconciled to him and be saved. This is what it is all about. And, if we find that we have misunderstood the scriptures, we must not let our pride keep us from letting us admit that we were in error and to accept our correction. If we are in error, is it not better that we are corrected so that we can go on with the truth from here?
I pray “my Father and my God please do not let me teach any thing that is not your Word. Correct me quickly if what I am teaching is not the truth”. I don't want to mislead any one, and I do not any one on this forum to mislead any one either because I want God's very best for you.
God Bless
Me three 942767I do not desire to hand t8 over to the Law to be judge
Jesus never said anything like I'll give you three days or your the loser;
but IN THREE DAY'S HE CAN TEAR DOWN THE OLD TEMPLE and build it a new.Psa 39:8 Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish.
Psa 39:9 I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst [it].charity
“David,
I didn't want a forfeit, as I've pointed out numerous times. However, it's important that these debates have integrity for anything useful to come out of them. Rules help provide the framework for a meaningful dialogue in a debate. To this end, read what Whatistrue wrote In this thread, he put it very well: . . . . understand?–Is 1:18Yes, I understand what you are saying. But I don't think you understand how you came off when you jumped on T8 for not responding in three days. The last few posts you should reflect on.
(John 17:3) “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
1. Fred is Sam's pupil
2. Fred is a debate champion.
3. Sam has one more debates than anyone.All the three things above are very simple ideas, easily understood.
Now, if I said:
“Concerning this trinitarian debate, we should learn from Sam, the only true debater, and also from Fred whom he taught.”We notice several things:
1. Fred cannot be Sam because Sam “taught” fred, just as the Father sent his Son. The two are clearly distinguished in this verse as being two separate people.2. Because Sam is a grand master debater and much better than everyone else, comparitively speaking, it can be said that he is the only true debater. No one else comes close and compared to him, others aren't really debating at all. (Similarly, no one is a “mighty one” [god] to Jehovah. Yet, they can be called gods compared to others)
THIS DOESN'T MAKE Fred a false debator. He really is a champion debater. But he is nowhere in Sam's league, so the statement makes sense.Understanding all of this, this scripture (unless you are heavily slanted toward trinitarianism already) seems to greatly argue against it):
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”Just wanted to clear a couple of things up….
It's seems that there's a perception that i'm being a bit precious about the debate. It's standard practice to forfeit a debate if you breach the time limit, and for good reasons. It's important to understand that in the format of a formal debate (in contrast to the general chaotic disorder of the message board thread) all things, apart from the skill set of the participants and the apologetic material at their disposal, should be held equal. The rules are there to ensure an unfair advantage is not held by one participant over another. The time limitation is particularly important as it imposes pressure, and has a significant influence on the quality of the each participant's output. In this debate, to a certain extent, I had to rush my post to ensure I made the three day time limit and, of course, soon after submission thought of a few more points I could have made. Had I had longer I could have incorporated them and the post would have been more compelling. T8 had a full 8 days to respond and didn't, so the debate had to end. You could liken it to the time limit of an exam, students who are subjected to limitation of time will generally be outperformed by those that can finish at their own discretion. The rules are there to make it fair for both participants.
With regard to me supposedly “winning” the debate. For the record I have never declared it, nor intimated it. No body “won”, the debate never really got off the ground and even if it did and went to completion the final result would still have been subjective. No matter how one-sided the exchanges might have been, inevitably those whose views are akin to t8's would propbably have sided with him and those who share my views would likely have sided with me. Such is human nature. The real value of debates (conducted properly) is that they provide a great platform to expose both the strengths and weaknesses in both arguments, and the information can be filtered through by the undecideds. That's why I like good debates. Too bad this one didn't work out.
Hi IS;1;18
I would stop for you anytime;
even no matter what you
believed is true; I except that as Gods will for you;
Least he brings us from wherever as to strengthen a army preparedI also think its the school Master that first rules our mind?
Grace abounds always through this time for all of us; everything is a learning opportunityRom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
charity
Those are kind words Charity…I think.
You're a blessing to us at Heaven.net, the place would not be the same without you.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 03 2007,09:58) Those are kind words Charity…I think. You're a blessing to us at Heaven.net, the place would not be the same without you.
Thank you IS; 1 18 that’s exceeding more than I deserve;
Also already having been blessed in finding the good that is within you
Heaven Net is such a blessing
With Gods love nothing is impossible to overcome
Pity God's omnipotence was not extended naturally to His children .
Glad We have Grace and mercy;His patience is towards us always while we learn his ways
Good Night IS 1;18t8 Posted
Quote Great you admit as such. Now combine that with the fact that this one true God sent his son.
Can you see that? Can you at least throw away your pride and admit that?
Of course we both know that there is one true God, but you also have to reconcile the fact that men and angels are referred to in scripture as elohim and theos and that Paul acknowledges that indeed there are many gods and many lords. In the context of angels, we know that is in not stating that they are false gods because they are told to “worship God all ye gods” and it is also unlikely that it is referring to false gods when talking of men because they were not claiming to be God.
So if your philosophy cannot handle all scripture, then maybe you need to change something.
What I believe caters for all scripture, not just some. I have made sure that scripture changes me, not me changing scripture.
What about you? Are you willing to let scripture change you? After all it is revealed from God himself and accepting what he says is obedience and obedience is love.
There are many gods, but there is one God of all and that God is even the God of Jesus Christ.
There are many lords such as landlords, lords over regions, cities, nations, kingdoms, etc. But there is one Lord of all.
God the Father is the true God over all. Jesus Christ is the true Lord over all. God also made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
But if you want to continue to let the Trinity doctrine poison scripture for you, then that is your choice. But remember that false teaching will incur a harsher judgement.
T8
You say…
Quote Great you admit as such. Now combine that with the fact that this one true God sent his son.
Can you see that? Can you at least throw away your pride and admit that?
Yes I do admit there is “ONE TRUE GOD”.
But, apparently you don’t.
You insist on calling other beings “angels and men” gods, and then go on to say that they can’t be “false gods” because they are referring to Angels of God or men.
You also insist on calling Jesus a lesser god and of course you say he is not false either.
Since we know that something is either true or false, and we obviously know that Jesus is true then we know he is “TRUE GOD”!
Now combine that with the fact that “the Father” calls no other being “God” but Yeshua, then we have confirmation he is the “True God”!
Can you see that? Can you at least throw away your pride and admit that?
Obviously, your definition of “ONE true God” is false as long as you believe there are other gods that are not false.
You say…
Quote Of course we both know that there is one true God, but you also have to reconcile the fact that men and angels are referred to in scripture as elohim and theos and that Paul acknowledges that indeed there are many gods and many lords. In the context of angels, we know that is in not stating that they are false gods because they are told to “worship God all ye gods” and it is also unlikely that it is referring to false gods when talking of men because they were not claiming to be God. Here is what Paul the Hebrew of the Hebrews a strict monotheistic Jew acknowledged…
1 Cor 8:
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, (we know there is only “one Lord, the Father and Yeshua/YHWH).
6 yet for us there is but “one God”, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat {food} as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.Let’s break it down.
Vrs 4.
Paul a strict Monotheist, speaks of Idols as being “no such thing” in the world, and that “there is NO GOD but ONE”Vrs 5.
Paul says they are “So called gods”, and many of them “gods and lords. We know there is only “ONE LORD” the Father and Yeshua”. Do you object to that?Vrs 6.
Paul declares “Yet for us there is but *ONE GOD*”. If you say Jesus is “A” God and he is your “LORD”, then that means also he is your God.Do you see that? Can you take of your proud glasses to see that?
Then in the same breath Paul goes on to say the “ONE GOD” is the Father, from whom are all things “and” the Lord Jesus Christ “by whom are all things” and we exist through Him.
If we “by Jesus” exist through him and are Gods children and belong to Jesus or God then Jesus is also God. Can you see that?
Vrs 7.
Then Paul declares that not all men have this knowledge.
Then he goes back to the Idols he was speaking of in Vrs 4.What knowledge do men lack?
It’s the knowledge that there are “so called gods” and “idols” that men worship but “for us” there is only *ONE God*, and *ONE LORD*, The Father and Yeshua!
The context plainly shows the contrast of other so called “gods and lords” with the Father and Yeshua. Can you see that?
Tell me t8, why would Paul speaking to Corinth who was battling with Polytheism and Paganism mention in the same breath The Father and Lord Jesus sharing the same attributes?
He couples them together between scriptures condemning Idol worship and Polytheism.
You say…
Quote So if your philosophy cannot handle all scripture, then maybe you need to change something. What I believe caters for all scripture, not just some. I have made sure that scripture changes me, not me changing scripture.
What about you? Are you willing to let scripture change you? After all it is revealed from God himself and accepting what he says is obedience and obedience is love.
There are many gods, but there is one God of all and that God is even the God of Jesus Christ.
There are many lords such as landlords, lords over regions, cities, nations, kingdoms, etc. But there is one Lord of all.
God the Father is the true God over all. Jesus Christ is the true Lord over all. God also made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
But if you want to continue to let the Trinity doctrine poison scripture for you, then that is your choice. But remember that false teaching will incur a harsher judgment.
My “Theology” can handle it. How about yours?
Maybe you should consider letting the scriptures change you. I have, for by faith I accept his word “ALL of it “ no matter if I may have full knowledge or not.
So since you say there are many lords and gods, which is Polytheism and that “It’s not wrong to call the Word, Yeshua ‘A’ god”, putting him in the class of the created, then how do you reconcile that with these scriptures.
Deut 4:35
Unto thee it was s
hewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.Deut 4:39
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.1 Kings 8:60
That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.Isa 454:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, “there is no God beside me”: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.I am quiet sure the Word/YHWY was present when these words were spoken.
Your proof text…
Jn 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?Jesus is quoting David who prophetically speaking of the Kings and rulers of the Most High.
Ps 8:6
I have said, Ye are gods ('elohiym’ Rulers and Judges); and all of you are children of the most High.Look at the context of the Psalm, David is talking about judging justly and defending the Fatherless and the poor.
Look at the context of Jesus quote in Jn 10. Jesus is talking about the Fathers Works that he was doing, judging justly and defending the Fatherless and healing the sick and binding up the broken hearted.
Jesus had just stated in vrs 30..
Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.Tel me t8, do you believe when Jesus was quoting King David in Ps 8:6 that he was putting the Father and himself in the same class of being?
Did not Jesus know the above scriptures that say there is only “ONE” God and none else?
So then to you Jesus breaks the law if you believe he is saying there is other gods in the same class rather than rulers and judges.
It looks like to me you need to change your philosophy.
Remember t8, that teaching false doctrine will bring a harsher judgment and penalty.For to us there is but One God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!
One day every knee shall bow and confess to God/Jesus that he is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.
We should follow Thomas example and cry out “My Lord and and my God”, and we will hear the words of our Saviour God saying, “Blessed are you because you have believed and yet you have not seen.
Selah
WorshippingJesus I am looking to a full reward; and I am reminded in the scripture that I shall be in danger of losing this if I refuse to listen and place myself under he that hath not both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.charity
Quote (charity @ April 04 2007,00:50) WorshippingJesus I am looking to a full reward; and I am reminded in the scripture that I shall be in danger of losing this if I refuse to listen and place myself under he that hath not both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.charity
CharityAre we supposed to put ourselves under anyone but the Father and the Son and the Spirit?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2007,01:00) Quote (charity @ April 04 2007,00:50) WorshippingJesus I am looking to a full reward; and I am reminded in the scripture that I shall be in danger of losing this if I refuse to listen and place myself under he that hath not both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.charity
CharityAre we supposed to put ourselves under anyone but the Father and the Son and the Spirit?
I have full respect for the God head WorshippingJesus
God has put at Mans feet a help meet.
If you notice the Book I quoted is written for the female to be alerted towards the God head decerning it as her reward in full or part which concerns the choice she makes?She may well have the father and the son and filled the gaps with garments of praise towards God in patience
But without the Man having the father and the son she has failed to place herself short of the desired leading God has created for usBLESSINGS
WJ writes:
Are we supposed to put ourselves under anyone but the Father and the Son and the Spirit?
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1 Cor. 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Who is under the Spirit? Who is the Spirit the “head of….” Just curious
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 05 2007,06:45) WJ writes: Are we supposed to put ourselves under anyone but the Father and the Son and the Spirit?
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1 Cor. 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Who is under the Spirit? Who is the Spirit the “head of….” Just curious
Not3in1Glad you asked.
Are you ever lead by the Spirit?
Do you submit to the Spirit of God?
Does the Spirit teach you?
Does the Spirit of God convict you?
Does the Spirit of God correct you?
Since we know that the Lord is that Spirit, and we know that there is ONE Spirit.
Then I would say since Christ is the Spirit then he is our head!
Wouldnt you?
Who is dwelling in you? Hopefully he is your head!
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Hope this helps!
Then I would say since Christ is the Spirit then he is our head!
Wouldnt you?
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I answered “yes” to the first 5 questions. Because the spirit of God IS God (to me, I understand that the spirit of God is WHO God is, not another person of the trinity).So, I'm confused then as to how Jesus can also be the Spirit. Is this “Spirit” a different spirit from that of the Trinity?
I'm wondering about the verse in Corinthians. Why wasn't the “Spirit” (meaning the 3rd person in the trinity) mentioned as having a place of authority over anyone or thing? I'm seriously trying to follow this line of thought…..don't lose me!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 05 2007,06:45) WJ writes: Are we supposed to put ourselves under anyone but the Father and the Son and the Spirit?
*******************************
1 Cor. 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is God, and the head of the woman is woman, and the head of God is God.Who is under the Spirit? Who is the Spirit the “head of….” Just curious
Hey Not3in1I hope you don’t mind I adjusted your post above to suite worshipingJesus
charity
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