- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Shouldn't this thread attempt to discuss the scripture at hand? If it just goes off where ever then it is like all the other 13 trinity threads that start off with a certain subject but go wherever.
T8,
It's been 72hrs+ since the three extra days were given to you to submit your rebuttal, so the deadline is up and the debate is officially forfeited. It's disappointing but maybe there will be another time.Blessings
Quote # Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)? # Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
# Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
# Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
# Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
# Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
These are of course all based on a false assumption.
And it is this:
Quote but there is only One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable. David, the assumptions were predicated on t8's understanding of the word 'theos' in John 1:1c, as outlined in his writing “Who is Jesus”. If you read the rebuttal carefully you will see this.
Based on the Bible and the meaning of “god,” you are wrong Is 1:18.
Because if what you say is true, then the angels are false gods (mighty ones). The judges of Israel who were called gods (mighty ones) weren't really mighty ones.
And Satan who is called a god (mighty one) isn't really mighty or powerful at all. (Of course, compared to Jehovah, he isn't powerful. But compared to us, he is the ruler of the world, who has blinded the world. He has power and is mighty. Hence, the word fits.)Thos idols who were gods who had ears but couldn't hear, and eyes, but couldn't see, of course had no power. They were powerless. They weren't gods at all. Hence, false gods.
Compared to Jehovah, the only true God, the only one who is every specifically described as Almighty, everyone else is below him in mightiness.
So to Jesus, the Father was God. To the Father, Jesus is not God. But to us, he certainly could be described with that word, and is.The problem with your reasoning is that it doesn't take into account what the actual word means and doesn't take into account the other biblical uses of that word.
Your conclusions are wrong because your assumptions are wrong.
One concordance gives the meaning of elohim this way: “Elohim, G-d (plural of majesty; plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); g-ds (true grammatical plural); and person characterized by greatness of power, mighty one, great one, judge” (Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance).
The word God applies to Jehovah, thousands of times. About 1000 times his is specifically called God. We know he is God. The word “God” essentially means: “Mighty one.” We know Jehovah, as our creator, is mighty, in fact, he is called ALMIGHTY. His son, is mighty as well, obviously. And therefore the title God can be applied to him, even as it is applied to human judges of isreal, and to angels and to Satan himself and to other false “mighty ones.” A piece of wood can be worshipped as an idol, a god, but really, it is not mighty at all, not really a god, it's false.
Just because Jehovah and Jesus both have the titles God, along with others, does not mean that Jesus is God almighty, that they are the same.
IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.
ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS?
(OR, PERHAP'S ARE THEY ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS?–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.)People associate the word “true” with “false” meaning that one is “correct” and one is “incorrect.” Jehovah is the correct God and everyone else is false therefore. But those words (TRUE AND FALSE) have other meanings.
Jehovah is the only true God, in comparison to all others. Yet, that doesn't make the judges of Israel false gods. They truly were mighty ones, with great power (compared to others)
(Psalm 115:3-7) “But our God is in the heavens; Everything that he delighted [to do] he has done. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat.”
So, these things are worshipped as God, yet they are not “god” in any sense. They have absolutely no power, no might, nothing.
(Deuteronomy 4:28) “And there YOU will have to serve gods, the product of the hands of man, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.”
False gods seem to be things that are worshiped, yet really have no power, really aren't “gods” at all.
I googled “true.”
I found true poker, true love, true wealth, true color, etc.
Does that mean that other poker is false?
That other love is false?
That other wealth is false?Much of this has to do with the erroneous idea that if something is called the “only true” whatever, everything else of that bunch is false.
If I said: “Is 1:18, now there's a true man. He is forceful in his convictions, etc. He's the only true man on here.”
People would understand what I'm saying. They wouldn't think that everyone else is a “false man.” They wouldn't think that I, the one saying it is implying that I, myself am a false man.A group of guys are hanging out. Out of all of them, Ted is the only true man there. Does this mean the rest are girls? Or what? Could it be that the rest are quite young? Yes, it could. But, for some reason, when we hear the expression, the “only true God” we take it to mean that anyone else that is called “god” is a false god, meaning, not really a god at all.
When I say that Ted is the only true man, it doesn’t mean that everyone else there are “false” men, does it? We wouldn’t go around calling those boys “false” men. They are simply not truly men! Why is this difficult to understand?
Someone could call them men. But they are not truly men, in the ultimate sense of the word. Ted is the only true man, comparatively speaking.Yet, the false conclusion is made and presented as fact that if Jehovah is called the only true God, Jesus must either:
1. be a false god
2. be JehovahThe error in this is twofold: it would mean that the Israelite Judges, the angels, anyone called a god is a false god or Jehovah and secondly, it misses the meaning of the word “god.”
YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THE FALSE IDEA THAT IF THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THEN EVERYTHING ELSE (SUCH AS THE JUDGES OF ISRAEL AND THE ANGELS) ARE FALSE GODS. This is ridiculous.
They were certainly mighty ones compared with others. The gods of wood and stone which had ears but no power to hear, these were certainly false gods.
Jehovah is the only one specifically ever called 'Almighy' in the Bible and hence, he is the only one who has unlimited power or mightiness. He is the God of Jesus. He is the God or mighty one of everyone.Quote David, the assumptions were predicated on t8's understanding of the word 'theos' in John 1:1c, as outlined in his writing “Who is Jesus”. If you read the rebuttal carefully you will see this. I'll go back and read it, but regardless of what T8 said, your use of the word “god” isn't Biblical and your use of the word “true” in contrast with “false” isn't logical based on what the Bible says.
Regardless of what t8 said, you are still wrong.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 22 2007,05:58) Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy….. 
My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:
1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.
Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:
He doesn’t say:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.
or this:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.
and He definitely didn’t say this:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.
So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Father and Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?
But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?
I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.
There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements. You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-
This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):
Quote John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word 'god' which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.
So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH…..
Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.
BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity? How implausible.
Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.
On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scripture and acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there is only One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.
To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes
continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25? And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?
You can't maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That's inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….
Section 2. Some contextual issues.
Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:
John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd.
- In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
- In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
Quote With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father's side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson's Word Pictures (NT) - In verse 10 we truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have? I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.
So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.
Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.
I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.
My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.
1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned
. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:- Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
- Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
- Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
- Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
- Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
- Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
The list goes on….
If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.
Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.
Blessings
OK, so after that long post you are saying that the verse is not saying “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”. But I say it is saying that.It doesn't matter how much you say in defense of this scripture, you are in reality denying this scripture plain and simple.
The verse actually says that The only true God SENT Jesus, NOT that Jesus is the only true God. No amount of ontological speak will change that fact. And if Jesus were the only true God as you argue, then what about the Father?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 22 2007,05:58) Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me”? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.
James 3:9
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.You obviously need to adjust your theology as these 2 scriptures obviously contradict according to your thinking.
I don't see a contradiction and even though we are like God (or should have been like him), I know that we are not God.
Of course there is no one like God, we all know that, but then God makes things in his own image because all that God creates is good. Now it is said of the son that he is the “image of God”.
So he is like God in that an image is like the source, but no one else is the source. No one else is the Most High God. Christ is not the Most High and he is not the source. He is the image. So even Christ who is the image of God is not like God in that respect is he?
When you see the big picture, you understand the smaller pieces. But if you don't see the big picture or you see the wrong picture, then pulling out one piece of a jigsaw and saying it is this or that, is only guess work at best and at worse it is not true.
You showed me Isaiah 46:9 and I showed you James 3:9. If you see the correct picture, both scriptures work. But from what you have said quoted above, James 3:9 doesn't work with your theology.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 22 2007,05:58) BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity? How implausible.
Not true.Woman came from man. Eve has human nature and she came from Adam the original man.
Adam and Eve are both man, but they are different identities.
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.So if the man is the head of woman and God is the head of Christ, then is it not possible that Christ is not God in identity just as Even isn't Adam, even though she is man.
But is it really smoke and mirrors Isaiah?
Is it no true that we will partake of the divine nature, and that we will be like him and see him as he is? Are you then suggesting that we will be God the Divine, or could you persuaded that we will partake of his nature, not his identity. The way I see it, you can answer with the following:
- We won't partake in divine nature
- We will partake in divine nature.
So you if you agree with the second option, and I take your theology, then it appears that you would have to believe that we will actually become God because you say that it is our nature that defines our being and identity.
I will repeat what you said:
Quote It is our nature that defines our being and identity. Now sync that with the following 2 scriptures:
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.So according to your defense, I can only conclude that you believe that we will be God one day, that is if you deny there is a or any contradiction in your theology, which I assume you are.
