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Hi T8
I agree. And that is sad. However, I have seen some reasonable arguments on both sides.
Hugs
PhoenixI haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.
From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.
Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.
After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.
- If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
- If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 29 2007,04:25) WJ wrote:
BTW Jesus is a seperate person from the Father but not seperate in his nature or class of being.****************************
Even when I was a Trinitarian, this explaination of Jesus was always lacking for me. The reason is this: Jesus is a man. In fact, he is so much of a man that he called himself my brother! But God is NOT a man. How can the two be one, then? How can they share the same “being?”
not3in1You say…
Quote Jesus is a man. In fact, he is so much of a man that he called himself my brother! But God is NOT a man. How can the two be one, then? How can they share the same “being Are you saying that God who is all powerfull, the One that the scriptures declare that there is nothing to hard for him or nothing impossible for him, that he the creator is not able to come in a body, in the likeness of sinfull flesh and dwell among us becoming our only Saviour?
For it was impossible for man to save himself!
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.This is why he is called the “Only Begotten” Monogenes, Unique Son of God.
He was and is God in the flesh.
Jn 1:14
And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt (Tabenacled), among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.1 Tim 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.1 Tim 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, [/B]the Almighty.[/B]Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Is 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Blessings
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 29 2007,04:32) WJ wrote:
To you Jesus is a man. But not deity. Therefore Gods Spirit is in you and Jesus the mans spirit is in you. Is that right?****************************************************
Jesus is a divine man. Because of Christ, we can also partake of this divine nature.
We must remember that the spirit that lives in Christ is of God. Christ is of God, and we are of Christ. We all (including Christ) share the same, One spirit (which is God the Father).
So, no – I do not have two spirits in me.
Thanks for this great discussion. I have seriously pondered some new things through this thread.
Not3in1So then Jesus is not in you?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,05:45) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,17:47) Hi Not3in1 Either you made perfect sense to me there or our minds are thinking alike. And I would like to say the same to Tim as well.
However, though, the scripture John 1:1 throws this concept out of proportion. I must read some more into this.
But first I must mention. Last night I explained to the elders of SDA my feelings about the Trinity. Although they explained their understanding of it I had to let them know that is the same understanding I have. So I explained them what some Trinitarians believe the Trinity means… that 1) God came down to be Jesus. Or 2) that God separated a portion of himself to come down and become Jesus. They disagreed with both notions but still agree with the Trinity. So, obviously there are heaps of ways in seeing this trinity LOL. Anyway, the subject got changed. And when this happens it tells me they dont want to discuss the matter anymore. Fair enough.
We are studying the book of Mark at the moment and we were up to Chapter 10 last night. And we came across the verse…18″Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I just sat there and kept my mouth shut and waited to see if anyone in the group wouldnt mention anything about that. But no one did! So, yeah… as much as i love these people the Trinity is the only thing that separates me from them. And that is exactly how i felt last night.
Another story i was told by a woman (whom isnt an SDA) and she was explaining to me about the Trinity, was that there was a bee in her house and she didnt want to kill it but try and shoo it out the window or door. She said that whatever she did was not working and at that instance she thought to herself…'if only I could become a bee to be able to guide it out the door'. I have read another story pretty much similar to this before as well.
So can you imagine how my head feels? LOL. No wonder it is screaming WTF?
But…my heart just wont let me accept the Trinity. And I dont understand why other peoples hearts dont feel the same. Which is why i wanted to discuss this with the elders to find out if their hearts had the same. One of them said that she had a hard time understanding it herself when she was younger. But now she understands. She is in her 60's now I think and she was raised with the church. So… maybe they all had doubts in their hearts years ago but maybe years of constantly being told there is a Trinity (brainwashing?) has now been set in their minds.
I dont know. I dont want to speculate or accuse. They really are wonderful people. Just a shame that one little separation comes between us.
And I have waffled on enough
Hugs
PhoenixEdit: I forgot to mention too that the elders pointed out the John 1:1 scripture to me. So yeah, as usual i was a bit lost for words.
Hi Phoenix.The Trinity doctrine is probably what started or got denominations going in the first place, so it is highly unlikely that the true answer would be found in the system that it spawned.
Once Rome made that doctrine the official one, it was then enforced and it created one of the first (if not the first) denomination. From there many people broke away from that Roman Church afterward, but kept the Trinity foundation and those churches became the daughters of the mother by reason of the same foundation. That is not to say that truth wasn't discovered on the way, but the foundation remained.
So if we go to a denomination that is founded on this foundation, it would be extremely unlikely that you would be able to challenge that doctrine with them because in doing so you would be questioning their very foundation and such an act would be frowned upon and seen as an attack, even an act of treason.
Therefore if people like us do not challenge the doctrine it probably will never be challenged.
t8Lame arguments with no scriptural proof!
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23) I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.
From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.
Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.
After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.
- If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
- If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.
t8Words with no scriptural proof to refute the scriptural truths set before you.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23) I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.
From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.
Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.
After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.
- If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
- If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.
t8A reasonable argument was put to you by Is 1:18 with unambiguous truth on Heb 1:10 and Pss 102.
Where is your rebuttal to that truth?
All I hear is Trinity is wrong with no scriptural truth to back it up.
Sure go ahead and throw your 100 scriptures out there which prove nothing but Jesus is the Son of the Father who is God.
When the facts are known Henotheism, and Unitarianism wont stand up.
Quote After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this. If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Hi T8
Yep thats similar to what I thought too. Take the trinity away and there is no argument. Bring it in and there are arguments.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,06:43) Quote After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this. If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Hi T8
Yep thats similar to what I thought too. Take the trinity away and there is no argument. Bring it in and there are arguments.
Hugs
Phoenix
PLOL
Havnt you checked out the other threads, and also havnt you noticed all the differnt opinions about who Jesus is.
Was he created, did he pre-exist, Is he God of the new creation but not before, is Jesus a little god, is he Michael incarnate, just to mention a few.
Look around and you will see there is more unity among the trinitarians than the Henotheist and the Unitarians any day.
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,06:43) Quote After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this. If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Hi T8
Yep thats similar to what I thought too. Take the trinity away and there is no argument. Bring it in and there are arguments.
Hugs
Phoenix
pThe Father of lies will fight tooth and nail to keep men from knowing the truth.
So because you bring the “Trinity” around and there is debate expecially on an anti-Trinitarian site is not necessarily a sign that the Trinitarian view is wrong.
Quote If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture. T8
Jn 1:1 and Heb 1:8 and Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 is not ambiguous.
And are a contradiction to your Henotheistic belief.
Hi WJ
My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,06:38) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23) I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.
From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.
Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.
After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.
- If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
- If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.
Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.
t8A reasonable argument was put to you by Is 1:18 with ambiguous truth on Heb 1:10 and Pss 102.
Where is your rebuttal to that truth?
All I hear is Trinity is wrong with no scriptural truth to back it up.
Sure go ahead and throw your 100 scriptures out there which prove nothing but Jesus is the Son of the Father who is God.
When the facts are known Henotheism, and Unitarianism wont stand up.
OOPS!Should be “Unambiguous”.
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pI disagree, most that know anything about scriptures believe God is three Persons.
Sure the unbelievers dont want to believe it.
But ask this question to a child.
Who created all things?
And the Reply will be God.
Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 show that YHWY created all things who is Yeshua in the flesh.
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pHave you also looked around to see who is doing most of the evangelising in the world, and who are bringing more people to Christ and feeding and clothing the poor and destitute more than any others in the World?
Its the Trinitarians.
All the major moves of God form Luther, to the Protestant reformation to the Azuza street revivals, to the 60s Jesus movement to the 80s and 90s Charismatic movement even to this present day move of God throughout the world.
All those moves are Trinitarians.
And how many here were saved as Trinitarians or in a Trintarian Church only to be led away from their roots by lieing and decieving doctrines of men?
Blessings!
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pBy the way would you let a non believe dictate to you who God is or his nature?
Hugs
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,07:20) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pI disagree, most that know anything about scriptures believe God is three Persons.
Sure the unbelievers dont want to believe it.
But ask this question to a child.
Who created all things?
And the Reply will be God.
Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 show that YHWY created all things who is Yeshua in the flesh.
Hi WJOf course a Child will answer with that.
Ask the Child if they think Jesus is God. Or even better… Ask the Child if Jesus created all things. Trust me I know the answer to that… I have tested my son on it.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,07:20) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pI disagree, most that know anything about scriptures believe God is three Persons.
Sure the unbelievers dont want to believe it.
But ask this question to a child.
Who created all things?
And the Reply will be God.
Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 show that YHWY created all things who is Yeshua in the flesh.
Hi WJOf course a Child will answer with that.
Ask the Child if they think Jesus is God. Or even better… Ask the Child if Jesus created all things. Trust me I know the answer to that… I have tested my son on it.
Hugs
Phoenix
pI disagree. Most children pray to Jesus, havnt you noticed?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,07:30) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 29 2007,07:13) Hi WJ My idea/word is not based on this Forum or the website.
I can tell you this though… You try and tell a non-believer about the Trinity and they'll tell you where to go. Which is why most church's won't ever start a conversation with a non believer beginning with the Trinity. Bit cunning in my opinion
Hugs
Phoenix
pHave you also looked around to see who is doing most of the evangelising in the world, and who are bringing more people to Christ and feeding and clothing the poor and destitute more than any others in the World?
Its the Trinitarians.
All the major moves of God form Luther, to the Protestant reformation to the Azuza street revivals, to the 60s Jesus movement to the 80s and 90s Charismatic movement even to this present day move of God throughout the world.
All those moves are Trinitarians.
And how many here were saved as Trinitarians or in a Trintarian Church only to be led away from their roots by lieing and decieving doctrines of men?
Blessings!
Hi WJTo be really honest… the only ones I see out there witnessing are the Jehovah Witnesses LOL
The only time I met trinitarians were only recently when I went out to look for someone to teach more about the bible. As soon they spoke about the trinity I walked away.
Those that are feeding and clothing the poor and destitute.. I didnt know they were Trinitarians too be honest. I am speaking of all those charities out there. like world vision, greenpeace etc etc. Were they really churches? I didnt know that.
Quote And how many here were saved as Trinitarians or in a Trintarian Church only to be led away from their roots by lieing and decieving doctrines of men? Or would it be that they realised there were actually people out there that believed what they had in their hearts in the first place?
Hugs
Phoenix
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