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Quote (Cult Buster @ July 18 2007,18:22) Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,17:05) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 17 2007,10:21) Quote (Mr. Steve @ July 17 2007,14:09) Dear Cult Buster; Are saying that Jehovah is Jesus Christ? If yes, please read new testament again. He is the Son of God. If he is the Son of God, he cannot be God, too.
Mr. Steve
Hi Mr Steve.The Son of God is God. The Bible says so.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Are you STILL using this verse? I think we've established that this does speak of Yeshua, but the key to this verse lies in “his name shall be called”. Do I need to list all of those Hebrew names again? Jehu “he is God”. That one will do.Since he was never called any of these, I think its fair to say that the names are symbolic.
kejonn. The only thing you have established is that you can put the twist on scripture. I realise that it upsets you a lot but you have provided no sensible argument to date for the following.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
BTW, God (Elohim, theos) is not His name. It's YHWH, or at least that's what He inspired the Hebrews to write. So even if his name is called “Mighty God” (which does not occur in reference to Yeshua outside this verse), it is not YHWH.Someone could call me Mighty Man (which I doubt anyone would, but hey) but my real name is Kevin.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 18 2007,18:35) The reason that his name shall be called, “The mighty God”, is because Jesus is The mighty God
And the reason why Sons of God and Angels are called theos and elohim is because they are God?Ummmm. Actually that doesn't work.
I think your reasoning is faulty CultB.
Have another go.
Quote (kejonn @ July 19 2007,10:46) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 18 2007,18:22) Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,17:05) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 17 2007,10:21) Quote (Mr. Steve @ July 17 2007,14:09) Dear Cult Buster; Are saying that Jehovah is Jesus Christ? If yes, please read new testament again. He is the Son of God. If he is the Son of God, he cannot be God, too.
Mr. Steve
Hi Mr Steve.The Son of God is God. The Bible says so.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Are you STILL using this verse? I think we've established that this does speak of Yeshua, but the key to this verse lies in “his name shall be called”. Do I need to list all of those Hebrew names again? Jehu “he is God”. That one will do.Since he was never called any of these, I think its fair to say that the names are symbolic.
kejonn. The only thing you have established is that you can put the twist on scripture. I realise that it upsets you a lot but you have provided no sensible argument to date for the following.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
BTW, God (Elohim, theos) is not His name. It's YHWH, or at least that's what He inspired the Hebrews to write. So even if his name is called “Mighty God” (which does not occur in reference to Yeshua outside this verse), it is not YHWH.Someone could call me Mighty Man (which I doubt anyone would, but hey) but my real name is Kevin.
Kejonn. You're putting the “twist” on scripture again.
Come out of her
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Hi CB,
Why do you stand within and tell others to leave?
Your doctrines are of catholicism, not Christ.Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,17:09) Kejonn. You're putting the “twist” on scripture again.
Come out of her
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
That was poor rebuttal
.And puhleeze stop using the verse from 2 Cor 11:4. It much better describes Trinitarians since Paul wrote this many, many years before the Trinity doctrine.
Kejonn. This is what I wrote.
Quote kejonn. The only thing you have established is that you can put the twist on scripture. I realise that it upsets you a lot but you have provided no sensible argument to date for the following. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And this is the rubbish that you reply with.
Kejonn
Quote BTW, God (Elohim, theos) is not His name. It's YHWH, or at least that's what He inspired the Hebrews to write. So even if his name is called “Mighty God” (which does not occur in reference to Yeshua outside this verse), it is not YHWH. Someone could call me Mighty Man (which I doubt anyone would, but hey) but my real name is Kevin
And you expect me to take you seriously as a theologian?
Hi CB,
Are you a theologian?
We do not take much notice of them either.
Better to study scripture and seek the approval of God.Cult Buster.
If you have a true heart, then you would seek the truth. But you agenda shows us otherwise. You are promoting the traditions of men and in doing so, you nullify the power of God in your life.
You can't have mens traditions and the power of God too.
God demonstrates his power where his truth is in order to give testimony of the truth.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,17:46) Kejonn. This is what I wrote. Quote kejonn. The only thing you have established is that you can put the twist on scripture. I realise that it upsets you a lot but you have provided no sensible argument to date for the following. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And this is the rubbish that you reply with.
Kejonn
Quote BTW, God (Elohim, theos) is not His name. It's YHWH, or at least that's what He inspired the Hebrews to write. So even if his name is called “Mighty God” (which does not occur in reference to Yeshua outside this verse), it is not YHWH. Someone could call me Mighty Man (which I doubt anyone would, but hey) but my real name is Kevin
And you expect me to take you seriously as a theologian?
Much more seriously than yourself. But then again, did I claim to be a theologian? I'm just a child of the King, searching for truth. I can return to the cover-up but it will be a hollow existence.Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,11:31) [/quote]
Much more seriously than yourself. But then again, did I claim to be a theologian? I'm just a child of the King, searching for truth. I can return to the cover-up but it will be a hollow existence.
What's a theologian? Someone who studies Scripture? Are you one? What cover-up?
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.It is clear from scripture that only God was involved in creation, therefore
the creator God of Psalm 102:24-27 is the same creator God of Hebrews 1:10-12. The Father identifies Him as such.Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
It is clear from the above verses that Christ is the Creator God of Psalm 102:25.
Apostle John understood that Christ was the creator, the Almighty Jehovah.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The statement “All things were made by him” is an incredible statement to make of the Christ the Word. There was nothing in the created order that was not made by Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”
Paul states, another amazing statement describing Jesus
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himThe Bible clearly tells us that only God was involved in creation.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;;
Yes, Jehovah God alone created, so Christ is Jehovah God.
Look!
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
See also the following scripture.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Jehovah) God made the earth and the heavens,We shall now see that it was Christ (Jehovah) who was the Creator.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD (Jehovah) made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD (Jehovah) blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Here scripture tells us that Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and then rested on the sabbath day (seventh day). And Jesus in Mark 2:28 asserting Himself as the Lord of the sabbath.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath
This makes Jesus “the Lord thy God”
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God
It was Christ (Jehovah) who created the heavens and the Earth and rested on the seventh day which He blessed, hallowed and sanctified: thus making Himself the Lord of the sabbath.
Remember that only God was involved in creation.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;;
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Try dancing around that!
Jesus the Creator; Lord of the Sabbath, is the Lord thy God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
CB,
Bible verse cluster bomb. Modalism shames the Father.
Shall you then rewrite John 20:17? Is this what you see when you read it
Jhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to Myself; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to Myself and your Father, and Myself and your God.' “
You should…you are a modalist after all.
Kejonn. You have Bible myopia. Jesus was speaking in the context of the incarnation, while living as a man. But He was still God. The Bible says so.
Look! Just a few verses later. Thomas is speaking to Jesus.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Back to the drawing board. Off you go
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 02 2007,07:00) Kejonn. You have Bible myopia. Jesus was speaking in the context of the incarnation, while living as a man. But He was still God. The Bible says so. Look! Just a few verses later. Thomas is speaking to Jesus.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Back to the drawing board. Off you go
Uh….uh…you DO realize that when Yeshua spoke in John 20:17, he was the same resurrected Yeshua that Thomas saw in 20:28 don't you? Did Yeshua somehow become a different Yeshua between 20:17 and 20:28? If so, show me scriptural evidence. Otherwise, I'll gladly give you my drawing board.Kejonn. He was still Jesus. And still Lord and God.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
CB! Thanks man, you've come through for me again. I think your purpose on here is to help us study the context by repeating certain verses. Thanks! Let's look, its amazing
Jhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
Jhn 20:18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.
Jhn 20:19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
Jhn 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Jhn 20:25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”Now, take note of what Yeshua said to Mary in verse 17 “but go to My brethren and say to them”. In verse 18 she tells them the message. Well guess what? According to verse 24, Thomas was not there to hear the message that Mary had from Yeshua! The very same message that said “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God”. So Thomas did not know that Yeshua had told them that he has a Father and God who is also our Father and God. No wonder Thomas was confused!
Thanks for the help with context. You're a lifesaver!
If Thomas was confused, then Jesus would have straightened him. But Jesus accepted Thomas' confession.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Kejonn. It seems that you are confused. Back to the drawing board. Off you go!
Actually, my response was just a means of showing the absurdity of your denial of Yeshua's statement. I see that you would rather believe the doubter over the risen Lord. He said his God, the Father, is our God too. So I believe him — his word takes precedence. You want to take Thomas' word over Yeshua's because it supports your dogma. That's fine, just admit that you value a fallen, doubting man over the Son of God.
Well, since this thread was initially written to addess John 1:1c, its time to look back to the originator of John's thought process – Philo. I don't know what made me think of Philo today but a heaviness of my heart came upon me and the name Philo came up. I knew nothing of Philo before today but now I know more than I want to.
So here is John 1:1 again.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This verse is a “cornerstone” for the deity of Christ and the Trinity. Lets then look to the writings of a man who preceded almost all of the New Testament, Philo of Alexandria. His application of Logos to God came before the Gospel of John.
From ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT, 1.229-230
(1.229) What then ought we to say? There is one true God only: but they who are called Gods, by an abuse of language, are numerous; on which account the holy scripture on the present occasion indicates that it is the true God that is meant by the use of the article, the expression being, “I am the God (ho Theos);” but when the word is used incorrectly, it is put without the article, the expression being, “He who was seen by thee in the place,” not of the God (tou Theou), but simply “of God” (Theou); (1.230) and what he here calls God is his most ancient word, not having any superstitious regard to the position of the names, but only proposing one end to himself, namely, to give a true account of the matter; for in other passages the sacred historian, when he considered whether there really was any name belonging to the living God, showed that he knew that there was none properly belonging to him; but that whatever appellation any one may give him, will be an abuse of terms; for the living God is not of a nature to be described, but only to be.
May this then be the end of that argument. The writer of the Gospel of John was influenced by Philo to formulate the Logos prelude. There can be little doubt to this. If we accept that Yeshua was indeed the Logos of God before he took on the form of a bond-servant, Philo shows us what happens when you have “ho theos” versus “theos” without the article. That is, only the true God is called “ho theos” according to the one who came up with the idea of Logos and God.
Please remember that Philo precedes almost all if not all NT writers. This certainly includes the writer of the Gospel of John.
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