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Hi t8.
What's your take on John 20:28?
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Theos {theh’-os}1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities2) the Godhead3) spoken of the only and true God3a) refers to the things of God3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way4a) God’s representative or viceregent4a1) of magistrates and judgesI honestly do not know exactly what Thomas meant, as you can see there are varied usages for the word “theos”.Here are some possibilities as to what Thomas actually meant:
- He was YHWH. (This contradicts scripture big time)
- He was addressing Christ and then addressed YHWH. (No contradictions as I could also say my Lord as referring to Christ and then my God as referring to his and my Father)
- He was in effect saying, my lord (boss) and theos (one in authority).
- He was THEOS quoted in similar fashion as Jesus calling us theos, i.e, son(s) of the Most High. (No contradiction) see both John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law,
I have said you are gods (theos)'</span>which is a quote from Psalms 82:6 <span style="color: red;">"I said,You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’
You have to also remember that the gospel/s, unlike a lot of Paul’s letters are not all teachings but recorded events and of what people said. Jesus said to Peter “Get behind me Satan”. Jesus wasn’t enforcing a teaching about Peter was he? Even more extreme could be denying Christ like Peter did. It was a true event, but not a model for us to follow. I think you can see what I am getting at.
You need to be wise in your understanding. If a person just gropes at anything that might fit his theology, then such a man is not searching for the truth, rather he is defining it from his own understanding and therefore he is proving only that he is carnal.
Given the wide possibilities of what Thomas said, it seems rather arrogant to say that he was teaching or in line with the Trinity doctrine. Thomas adoring exclamation “my Lord and my god” (John 20:28 is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17)
“Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”
Another balancing scripture to gain clear understanding is:John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Notice that God is invisible but quoted below, the very scriptures you are talking about show that Jesus was visible.
John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
t8. All the above makes no sense at all. Christ divinity was veiled by His humanity. People on earth saw Him only in His humanity, His divine glory was covered for a time. You deny the incarnation, that God (Christ) temporarily laid aside His divine power and took the form of a man.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Thomas understood who Christ was.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Stephen knelt down, prayed to, and worshiped Jesus.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Phi 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Rev 19:10 tells us to worship only God.
Jesus was worshiped both in heaven and on earth, therefore He is Jehovah God.
t8. You select only portions of scripture to try to prove Arianism. How can you honestly deny the rest?
Hi CB,
If you have seen and heard the message of Scripture to worship only our God,
why do you not obey scripture and worship only our God?Quote (942767 @ May 25 2007,13:18) Quote (Tim2 @ May 25 2007,12:53) Hey 94, I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?
Tim
Hi Tim2:Do you have any children? If so, are your children you or are they a different person?
Does the scripture say that Jesus is God or does it say that he is the Son of God?
Hi 94,If you would please read the ecumenical creeds, http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html you would see that they confess the Son to be a different person than the Father.
Now, don't children have the same nature as their parents? How then could the Son be different than the Father?
Tim
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2007,17:03) Hi Tim2. Quote (Tim2 @ May 26 2007,07:53) Hey 94, I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?
Tim
An image comes from the source. An image by definition cannot be the source.God is the Original. Christ the son, is his image.
Then we come next. i.e., God > Christ > Man
This is not human logic. It is scriptural.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.Jesus Christ is the prototype son and we are sons.
He is of God and we are of God. But neither of us are God.Our God is the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “
t8,Looks like I get to cheat and answer your third debate post in advance.
You say that the Father is invisible. But Jesus is His Image, such that when we see Jesus, we see the Father. John 14:9. You are right to say that an image is not its source, but you are wrong to infer that the Image of the Father is something less than the Father. Does the Radiance of the Father's glory diminish as it goes out from Him? Is the exact representation of His person not exact?
No, the Son is the image of the Father because He is equal to the Father, very God and Son of God, consubstantial with the Father.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
My kids all have different natures.
O you mean they are all human?So Gods cannot beget sons but must beget equal Gods?
Not only that they cannot ever beget separate beings?Who are you to tell God how to work?
Quote (Tim2 @ May 29 2007,18:09) Now, don't children have the same nature as their parents? How then could the Son be different than the Father?
The son of a human father is human, but let's not forget he is a different human from his father. Do Trinitarians want to claim Jesus is a different God from his Father?“Son of God” would mean Jesus has the same nature as God? If this is true it would still be a weak argument for Jesus being God because others are also called God's sons and those who are God's sons are also told they will have God's nature. See 2 Peter 1:4
It appears having divine nature does not make Jesus God anymore than it makes anointed Christians God.
To Tim2.
Quote (Tim2 @ May 30 2007,13:20) t8, Looks like I get to cheat and answer your third debate post in advance.
You say that the Father is invisible. But Jesus is His Image, such that when we see Jesus, we see the Father. John 14:9. You are right to say that an image is not its source, but you are wrong to infer that the Image of the Father is something less than the Father. Does the Radiance of the Father's glory diminish as it goes out from Him? Is the exact representation of His person not exact?
No, the Son is the image of the Father because He is equal to the Father, very God and Son of God, consubstantial with the Father.
Tim
Yes he is the glory of God and the exact representation of his being.He is all this, but he is not God himself whom he reflects.
How do you reflect God? Well one thing needed is that you don't look to yourself.
Yeshua speaks only what he hears his father saying. He has his own will, but he chooses to do the will of God.
“Not my will, but your will.”
To say that Christ is an image but is also God himself, is to say that he is the image and source. It is the same as saying that he is the vine and the gardener. It is the same as saying that he is both the son and the one true God, the Father.
I have taught the following from the beginning of this websites inception and I stand by it.
God > Christ/son of God > Man.
Not
Trinity > ManWe too are made in the image of God. Except that we each reflect God in part. But even if all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together, we will never be God himself.
t8,
You say that men reflect the image and glory of God, and you are right. But Jesus is not said to be the “reflection” of God's glory, He is said to be the Radiance. The reflection is something altogether separate and different from the Light, but the Radiance is the Light itself, as Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
I don't believe it says that all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together.
But when we see Jesus we see the Father. It doesn't say we see a reflection of the Father, or part of the Father, or anything less. It says we see the Father.
Tim
Radiance = glowing; transmitted by radiation.
Radiation = issue rays; spread from a center.
Radiance is not the light itself. It comes from a source and that source is God, himself.
Having a dictionary can be dangerous sometimes
Quote (Tim2 @ May 31 2007,04:41) t8, You say that men reflect the image and glory of God, and you are right. But Jesus is not said to be the “reflection” of God's glory, He is said to be the Radiance. The reflection is something altogether separate and different from the Light, but the Radiance is the Light itself, as Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
I don't believe it says that all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together.
But when we see Jesus we see the Father. It doesn't say we see a reflection of the Father, or part of the Father, or anything less. It says we see the Father.
Tim
TimTrue!
You cannot seperate the “Image”, from its source!
You take away the mans Image then the man has no Image and therefore does not exist.
If you take away the image of God, then God has no Image.
Jesus is not “an” Image of God, he is the exact representation of Gods substance.
He is “the” Image of God.
The Sun and the rays are “ONE”, without the sun there is no rays, and without the rays there is no sun!
God and “The Son” are One!
*Somebody please tell me how God who is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, who fills all things, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is bigger than the heavens, can have an image that is an exact representation of all he is, apart from himself?
*Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,05:05) Radiance = glowing; transmitted by radiation. Radiation = issue rays; spread from a center.
Radiance is not the light itself. It comes from a source and that source is God, himself.
Having a dictionary can be dangerous sometimes
An English dictionary, Not3in1?But it doesn't matter, because as I said in my post, Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,06:33) Quote (Tim2 @ May 31 2007,04:41) t8, You say that men reflect the image and glory of God, and you are right. But Jesus is not said to be the “reflection” of God's glory, He is said to be the Radiance. The reflection is something altogether separate and different from the Light, but the Radiance is the Light itself, as Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
I don't believe it says that all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together.
But when we see Jesus we see the Father. It doesn't say we see a reflection of the Father, or part of the Father, or anything less. It says we see the Father.
Tim
TimTrue!
You cannot seperate the “Image”, from its source!
You take away the mans Image then the man has no Image and therefore does not exist.
If you take away the image of God, then God has no Image.
Jesus is not “an” Image of God, he is the exact representation of Gods substance.
He is “the” Image of God.
The Sun and the rays are “ONE”, without the sun there is no rays, and without the rays there is no sun!
God and “The Son” are One!
*Somebody please tell me how God who is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, who fills all things, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is bigger than the heavens, can have an image that is an exact representation of all he is, apart from himself?
*
Hi w,
Having established that you cannot separate the image from the source you then attempt to do the reverse and show the image is the source thus denying the whole point of your example.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,07:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,06:33) Quote (Tim2 @ May 31 2007,04:41) t8, You say that men reflect the image and glory of God, and you are right. But Jesus is not said to be the “reflection” of God's glory, He is said to be the Radiance. The reflection is something altogether separate and different from the Light, but the Radiance is the Light itself, as Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
I don't believe it says that all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together.
But when we see Jesus we see the Father. It doesn't say we see a reflection of the Father, or part of the Father, or anything less. It says we see the Father.
Tim
TimTrue!
You cannot seperate the “Image”, from its source!
You take away the mans Image then the man has no Image and therefore does not exist.
If you take away the image of God, then God has no Image.
Jesus is not “an” Image of God, he is the exact representation of Gods substance.
He is “the” Image of God.
The Sun and the rays are “ONE”, without the sun there is no rays, and without the rays there is no sun!
God and “The Son” are One!
*Somebody please tell me how God who is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, who fills all things, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is bigger than the heavens, can have an image that is an exact representation of all he is, apart from himself?
*
Hi w,
Having established that you cannot separate the image from the source you then attempt to do the reverse and show the image is the source thus denying the whole point of your example.
NHNot at all NH!
Thats the whole point, the Father and the Son and the Spirit is One God and of One substance!
The sunlight and the sunrays have the same molecular structure.
The bone marrow and the bone also have the same molecular structure.
Get over NH! All creation reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in existance that is not plural and yet one!
One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,08:20) Hi W,
The sunlight is not the sun.
The sun is more than that which it expresses.
NhYes the Father is not the Son!
But they are one God!
One Spirit, Three Presons. One God!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,06:33) *Somebody please tell me how God who is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, who fills all things, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is bigger than the heavens, can have an image that is an exact representation of all he is, apart from himself?
Finally, I get to push the “easy” button!Answer: He beget a Son
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