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t8
Quote t8 hasn't conceded. He thinks that (if the translation is correct) that there is a ME and HIM. ME appears to be Yahweh, HIM appears to be Christ given that supposition. I do not say that they are both the same person given the grammatical structure in English. It seems obvious to me that anyone with a reasonable grasp of English would agree that ME and HIM are 2 different people/identities.
t8. The scripture identifies one Person Jehovah (Jesus). This is not the only time that Jehovah has referred to Himself in both the first and third person.
See the following.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.(Jehovah speaking)
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.This prophesy points to Jehovah (Jesus) who was pierced.
John 19:33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.
Nick
Quote Hi Is 1.18,
If you had not built on the trinity theory would you be searching for such unusual verses and trying to show the Son of God could be called by the Father's holy name?Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Here in Zechariah, it is Jehovah whom is pierced, for the scripture says “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced…” Then in John 19:34 it is Jesus who is pierced. So it is evident that Jesus is Jehovah.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Researching more on Zechariah 12:10 it discloses some interesting points.
This is what is found in the Jewish Tanakh and also with the literal translation –v'shaphak ( I will pour)
ole (upon)
bayeet (house)
daveed (David)
v'ole (and upon)
yoshab ( inhabitants)
yerushalayam ( Jerusalem)
ruach (spirit)
khane ( grace)
v'takhnoonim ( and supplications)
v'haybatoo (and they shall look)
aleahee (upon me)
ate ( not translated in English)
ahsher (whom)
dahqahroo (they have pierced)
sawfahdoo ( and they shall mourn)
ahlahyev ( for him)
k'mispade (as one laments)
ahl (for)
hayasheed (the only)
v'hamare (and shall be in bitterness)
ahlahee (for him)
k'hamare (as one in bitterness)
ahl (for)
ha bekore (the first born)Looking at the above Hebrew to English translation and then comparing it to the KJV Bible we find that the English follows exactly as it is in the KJV Bible which renders a perfect translation.
And “I” will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon “ME” whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for the only , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for firstborn.
As Is 1:18 quoted
Quote 1. NIV
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.2. NASB
10″I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.3. KJV
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.4. NKJV
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.5. KJ21
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.6. ESV
10″And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.7. AMP
10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.8. MESS
10-14″Next I'll deal with the family of David and those who live in Jerusalem. I'll pour a spirit of grace and prayer over them. They'll then be able to recognize me as the One they so grievously wounded—that piercing spear-thrust! And they'll weep—oh, how they'll weep! Deep mourning as of a parent grieving the loss of the firstborn child.9. NLT
10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.10. ASV
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.11. YLT
10And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.12. DARBY
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.13. NIRV
10 “I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on David's family line. I will also send it on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look to me. I am the one they have pierced. They will sob over me as someone sobs over an only child who has died. They will be full of sorrow over me, just like someone who is full of sorrow over an oldest son.14. NIVUK
10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.15. TNIV
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the on
e they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.While only 2 translated it this way:
1. NLV
10 “I will pour out the Spirit of loving-favor and prayer on the family of David and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look on Him Whose side they cut. They will cry in sorrow for Him, as one cries for an only son. They will cry much over Him, like those who have lost their first-born son.2. CEV
10I, the LORD, will make the descendants of David and the people of Jerusalem feel deep sorrow and pray when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him, as parents weep over the death of their only child or their first-born.But I'm sure you'll agree that the NLV and CEV don't pretend to be literal translations…..
Literally thousands of English Bible translators, the vast majority of them and the best in the business, deem the word “me” should be used in Zechariah 12:10. The onus is on you to show WHY they were wrong to think this.
Jesus is the Mighty Jehovah who was pierced
Back to the drawing board again Nick . Off you go!
Quote (t8 @ May 10 2007,21:32) t8 hasn't conceded. He thinks that (if the translation is correct) that there is a ME and HIM. ME appears to be Yahweh, HIM appears to be Christ given that supposition. I do not say that they are both the same person given the grammatical structure in English. It seems obvious to me that anyone with a reasonable grasp of English would agree that ME and HIM are 2 different people/identities.
I am also open to the English translation being wrong or inadequate (as is possible) and I do have my suspicion due to the grammatical inaccuracies that appear to be present. If I wrote that verse in school I think that I would be marked down because of the grammar.
But as it stands anyone who has a reasonable grasp of English grammar would struggle to see ME and HIM as the same person, and if I had to choose which one was Christ, it seems obvious that it is HIM.
He he…the problem you still have t8 is that it was the part of the Zechariah verse with the “me” reference (the pronoun you affirm refers to YHWH) in it that John quoted and applied to Yeshua, not the “Him” part!!Here, look for yourself:
John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.Cf.
Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.So, even if two identites are in view in Zech 12:10, the part of the verse with the wrong one (for your argument to be plausible) is quoted by John.
Quote I also think that what WhatIsTrue says is very reasonable too. i.e., that John translates it a certain way so therefore we have a guide as to what Zechariah was saying. That is if we believe that what John wrote was correct.
This has been addressed in a previous post. Jewish NT writers generally have a proclivity to use a little licence (it's called “targum”) when they quote OT passages. It's likely John made a slight alteration of the Hebrew text to facilitate his personal understanding of the Zechariah passage. John recognised that the “me” in the “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” part of the Zech 12:10 prophecy was Yeshua, and his targum reflected this.T8, were the teams of highly-qualified translators involved in translating the 15 English versions of the Bible (including the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV and ESV) that I cited unequivocally wrong to render Zech 12:10 with the first person pronoun “me”?
If so, why? Let's have some evidence.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,21:01) Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary. Quote (t8 @ May 06 2007,21:58) I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.
T8, the key point is that it was the “me” in the Zech 12:10 verse that the prophecy was applied to, the “me” that you accept is YHWH. We both agree that it was YHWH that Zechariah recorded would be “pierced” and “looked upon”. Therefore, it is YHWH that MUST fulfill these things. If an identity other than YHWH fulfills it then we have a problem t8. The default position is: YHWH has prophesied falsely, YHWH has told a lie. If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy it MUST come to pass.This is the issue that you have not addressed.
Well my eye's are looking AT ONE Hand writer only that reports christ was pierced in His “side”?
The word Pierced is only connected with Johns report of the eye witnesses;
and pierced is only refired to his feet and hands in prophecy by David?KJV Concordance for -PIERCED- Help Using the Search Tool
PIERCED occurs 8 times in 8 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Jdg 5:26 – Rev 1:7)Jdg 5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.To Is 1:18 .
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 12 2007,15:20) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,21:01) Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary. Quote (t8 @ May 06 2007,21:58) I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.
T8, the key point is that it was the “me” in the Zech 12:10 verse that the prophecy was applied to, the “me” that you accept is YHWH. We both agree that it was YHWH that Zechariah recorded would be “pierced” and “looked upon”. Therefore, it is YHWH that MUST fulfill these things. If an identity other than YHWH fulfills it then we have a problem t8. The default position is: YHWH has prophesied falsely, YHWH has told a lie. If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy it MUST come to pass.This is the issue that you have not addressed.
Say what?I will address it again.
I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.
YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.
You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.
It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.
Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?
Are they YHWH and Christ?
Just YHWH?
Just Christ?
Or what?Thanks.
Hi:
Jesus said: Matt. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, 42 ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, 43 ‘I tell you the truth, 44 just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.
We the body of Christ are the Holy Temple of God, and so yes, in that they pierced God's Body, they did pierce YHWH. Jesus was sent by Him as his representative, and so in all that they did unto Jesus, they were in essence doing what they did to God.
God Bless
Hi 942767.
This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?
Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34) Hi 942767. This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?
Hi t8:I read this as me and him being the same person.
God Bless
Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,12:04) Say what? I will address it again.
I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.
YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.
You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.
It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.
Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?
Are they YHWH and Christ?
Just YHWH?
Just Christ?
Or what?Thanks.
Lets break the passage down:“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication,
This is YHWH speaking, it is YHWH and YHWH alone that pours out a Spirit if grace and supplication…..
…so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced;
This is also YHWH, a new person has not been introduced into the text. YHWH is making a prophecy concerning Himself.
and they will mourn for Him,
Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, mourning over?
It's obvious. The one who was pierced.
….as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “weeping bitterly” over?
It's obvious. The one who was pierced.
If you introduce a new identity into the text then the whole passage is rendered unintelligible and the theme which is being developed falls to pieces.
The “me” and “him” are the same person. I guess the “Him” is used because its written from the perspective of the inhabitants. But to be honest it's utterly irrelevant anyway, as John only quotes the part of the verse with the “me” reference in it:
John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.Why can't you just accept the plain, commonsense interpretation of John 19:37 t8? Why do you cherry pick the scriptures that agree with your views and twist the rest to conform to your theology?
Conform to scripture t8. Yeshua is YHWH.
Blessings
Quote (942767 @ May 23 2007,08:46) Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34) Hi 942767. This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?
Hi t8:I read this as me and him being the same person.
God Bless
Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for expressing it. But ME and HIM in any other book would refer to 2 people.My conclusion is that it is 2 people/identities, or the translation is dodgy. I don't know which myself, but neither give support to the Trinity doctrine which is the reason for debating this.
I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people.
When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:
“The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.
Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.
t8
Quote I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people. When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:
“The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.
Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.
Hi t8. Unless I'm mistaken, it seem that in the following quote of yours, you are referring to yourself in both the 1st and 3rd person.
Are you both the same person?Quote (t8 @ May 11 2007,01:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,14:24) Q) Did YHWH declare, using the first person singular pronoun “me”, in Zechariah 12:10 that He would be “pierced” and “looked upon”? A) Yes. (t8 has conceded to this)
t8 hasn't conceded. He thinks that (if the translation is correct) that there is a ME and HIM. ME appears to be Yahweh, HIM appears to be Christ given that supposition.I do not say that they are both the same person given the grammatical structure in English. It seems obvious to me that anyone with a reasonable grasp of English would agree that ME and HIM are 2 different people/identities.
t8. Are you both the same person?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 22 2007,20:00) Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,12:04) Say what? I will address it again.
I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.
YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.
You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.
It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.
Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?
Are they YHWH and Christ?
Just YHWH?
Just Christ?
Or what?Thanks.
Lets break the passage down:“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication,
This is YHWH speaking, it is YHWH and YHWH alone that pours out a Spirit if grace and supplication…..
…so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced;
This is also YHWH, a new person has not been introduced into the text. YHWH is making a prophecy concerning Himself.
and they will mourn for Him,
Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, mourning over?
It's obvious. The one who was pierced.
….as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “weeping bitterly” over?
It's obvious. The one who was pierced.
If you introduce a new identity into the text then the whole passage is rendered unintelligible and the theme which is being developed falls to pieces.
The “me” and “him” are the same person. I guess the “Him” is used because its written from the perspective of the inhabitants. But to be honest it's utterly irrelevant anyway, as John only quotes the part of the verse with the “me” reference in it:
John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.Why can't you just accept the plain, commonsense interpretation of John 19:37 t8? Why do you cherry pick the scriptures that agree with your views and twist the rest to conform to your theology?
Conform to scripture t8. Yeshua is YHWH.
Blessings
Amen Is 1:18Totally unambiguous!
Good points!
Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,22:39) Quote (942767 @ May 23 2007,08:46) Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34) Hi 942767. This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?
Hi t8:I read this as me and him being the same person.
God Bless
Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for expressing it. But ME and HIM in any other book would refer to 2 people.My conclusion is that it is 2 people/identities, or the translation is dodgy. I don't know which myself, but neither give support to the Trinity doctrine which is the reason for debating this.
I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people.
When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:
“The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.
Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.
Hi All:When the Jesus appeared to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus, he asks the Apostle Paul why he is persecuting him. We know that Paul was not literally persecuting him but that he was persecuting the church.
Acts 9
9:1
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
9:2
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Acts 9:3
And as he journeyed *, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, WHY PERSECUTEST THOU ME?
9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST:…In the same manner, it is my understanding the YHWH is saying that they pierced Him when they crucified Jesus because he was sent by Him to humanity and he is the express image of God's person.
The KJV Strong's Version
John 14
14:7
If ye had known me *, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.God Bless
Hey 94,
I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ May 25 2007,12:53) Hey 94, I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?
Tim
Hi Tim2:Do you have any children? If so, are your children you or are they a different person?
Does the scripture say that Jesus is God or does it say that he is the Son of God?
Hi Tim2.
Quote (Tim2 @ May 26 2007,07:53) Hey 94, I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?
Tim
An image comes from the source. An image by definition cannot be the source.God is the Original. Christ the son, is his image.
Then we come next. i.e., God > Christ > Man
This is not human logic. It is scriptural.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.Jesus Christ is the prototype son and we are sons.
He is of God and we are of God. But neither of us are God.Our God is the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' ”
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