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Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 16 2009,21:57) Hey Nick: There was a post led by “bodhitarta” on sacrifices and offerings just yesteday(Sun Nov. 15) that was quite long but excellent. I can't find it now. Could you possibly tell me where I can find it? Or can I get it back? It was in –Scripture & Biblical Doctrine–Topic: Bloodless atonement. Thank you for your help. TK
Hey Nick: I found it, that again was my fault. Sorry, TKTo all: I would like to get some feedback from this site on the subject of “being born again”! Jesus clearly said we must be but he never told us how to be. Please let me know. Thanks, With love, TK
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2009,02:41) God sent his Spirit into the world too, didn’t he?
WJ.If you could send your spirit, then think about how that would differ from sending your son.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2009,02:41) “If you really knew me“, you would know my Father (God) as well“. From now on, “you do know him (God) and have seen him (God)“.” John 14:7 Here we see Jesus saying “me and him” are “One” God!
WJ this is not Jesus teaching that he is one God with the Father. That is your own imagination at work.Rather it is a teaching that is likewise described in Colossians 1:15:
He is the image of the invisible God…God is still invisible WJ. Jesus is his visible image and the greatest revelation of what God is like.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2009,02:41) The foolish logic of man puts God into a box and makes him after his own image when he determines that an infinite God can be fully comprehended by the finite mind of man!
I agree that people try to put God into a box (as if they could). But surely your comment goes for triangles too right?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2011,18:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2009,02:41) “If you really knew me“, you would know my Father (God) as well“. From now on, “you do know him (God) and have seen him (God)“.” John 14:7 Here we see Jesus saying “me and him” are “One” God!
WJ this is not Jesus teaching that he is one God with the Father. That is your own imagination at work.Rather it is a teaching that is likewise described in Colossians 1:15:
He is the image of the invisible God…God is still invisible WJ. Jesus is his visible image and the greatest revelation of what God is like.
t8If that is all Jesus is saying then lets hear you say it.
Jesus is invisible to us also t8. It takes God Spirit to see Jesus.
Anyway who is it that John saw sitting on the Throne then t8 if God cannot be seen?
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev 4:3
If you say God cannot be seen then that must mean Jesus is the One that John saw in the Throne of God, right?
The Spirit of revelation reveals that Jesus is the “visible image of the invisible God”.
No other being is that right t8?
No other being is “the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being” is there?
Your view that Jesus is not God is clearly evidence that you see Jesus as “less” than the “Image of God”, you see him as “less” than 'the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being”.
That is why Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen God. If you do not see Jesus as God then how can you say the Jesus you see is 'the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being” or the image of the invisible God? Your image of God is not God.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2011,18:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2009,02:41) God sent his Spirit into the world too, didn’t he?
WJ.If you could send your spirit, then think about how that would differ from sending your son.
Did Jesus send the Father t8?Why did Jesus pray to the Father to send “another”?
Does the Father have to hear what he speaks?
Can the Father speak on his own?
Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?
These are all activities of the Holy Spirit t8.
Is the Holy Spirit the Father t8?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,02:15) t8 If that is all Jesus is saying then lets hear you say it.
Jesus is invisible to us also t8. It takes God Spirit to see Jesus.
Anyway who is it that John saw sitting on the Throne then t8 if God cannot be seen?
WJ.You can see Jesus because he has bodily form.
You can see the glory of God because everything lights up in his presence.But you cannot see God himself.
Remember that Jesus sits on the Fathers throne and he is the image of the invisible God.
BTW, Jesus is not invisible to us, rather he is in a different place. Paul is not invisible either. He is not where we are now.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,02:15) That is why Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen God. If you do not see Jesus as God then how can you say the Jesus you see is 'the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being” or the image of the invisible God? Your image of God is not God.
Jesus is the image of God. That means that he is not God.The woman is the image of the man. Female is not male, even though they share the same nature.
An image by its very definition excludes you from being the source that you are the image of.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 28 2011,16:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,02:15) That is why Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen God. If you do not see Jesus as God then how can you say the Jesus you see is 'the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being” or the image of the invisible God? Your image of God is not God.
Jesus is the image of God. That means that he is not God.The woman is the image of the man. Female is not male, even though they share the same nature.
An image by its very definition excludes you from being the source that you are the image of.
t8More play on words. Do you have an “image”? If not what is it that others see when they look at you?
If you want to look at the “exact image” of anything you look at the source of the “Image”. If the “Image” is different than the source in any way then it is not the “exact Image” of the source is it?
If not then what is it that others see when they look at you? They see a live image of you, right. Now if they see you in a picture they see a lifeless reflection of you, right?
Jesus is not some “lifeless reflection” of God as in a picture but when we look at him we see God for he is not merely a reflection but is “the visible image of God”.
When someone looks at you what they see is the “visible image” of a human being with all the essence, substance, or that which makes a human, human.
They don't see the image of a dog, or cat or any other creature, do they?
If you see Jesus then he says you have seen (God) just as when they see you they see the exact image of a human.
You can't have it both ways t8. You can't say he is the “image of the invisible God” and then say “he is not God who is visible”. If the “visible image” you see is not God then you are not seeing the “image of the invisible God” but something “less” than God.
You can't say he is merely “a reflection” of God because like the rays of the Sun are part of the Son and in fact are “One with” the Sun, so is Jesus to the Father.
This is basic stuff t8 that either you do not accept or you do not comprehend.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,09:07) t8 More play on words. Do you have an “image”? If not what is it that others see when they look at you?
WJ.You are playing with the words.
You are trying to make no distinction between a source and image.
If you think Jesus is the Father looking in the mirror, then you give Jesus no identity of his own from the Father. The implication of that is more in line with what Oneness Doctrine teaches.
But for US, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. We identify the Father as God and Jesus as the one that God made both Lord and Christ.
You seem to be trying very hard to blur Jesus into a God substance blob being thingy.
But scripture is putting down the stops to the direction you are trying to push. Be careful WJ, God hands people over to things that they consistently push toward.
To understand what an image is, just think of the fact that the woman is the image of the man.
Now you can see that the woman is not the man and nor is the woman the result of the image when a man looks in a mirror.
Try again WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2011,09:07) You can't have it both ways t8. You can't say he is the “image of the invisible God” and then say “he is not God who is visible”.
This is silly WJ.To be an image of something invisible is to be like that which is invisible.
If God is light and love, then Jesus is the express image of this. Think of God's nature and put a face to it.
Jesus has a body, so the fullness and beauty of the invisible God is expressed in the face of Christ.
t8
If you want to look at the “exact image” of anything you look at the source of the “Image”. If the “Image” is different than the source in any way then it is not the “exact Image” of the source is it?
You see a difference in the source t8. So your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.
We reflect the “Image of God” t8, and who is that “Image”?
WJ
WJ.
You can't wiggle away from the fact that an image is not the source. No matter how identical or the same the image is, its irrelevant in this sense.
i.e., no matter how much you argue that the woman is in nature man and is fully man(kind), she is not THE man.
Likewise Jesus is not the only true God of whom he is the image of.
Also, we are made in the image of God, so be careful how you define image, because even though we are 'made', you have to apply your same rules if you want to be consistent and taken more seriously.
i.e., I don't see you making the same argument that we are made gods for example because we are made in the image God.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 28 2011,18:05) WJ. You can't wiggle away from the fact that an image is not the source. No matter how identical or the same the image is, its irrelevant in this sense.
Ha Ha!And you can't argue that the source cannot exist without an image! Doesn't God have a “form” t8? Remember?
If Jesus is not God and we are being made into his “image” then according to you we are being made into the “Image” of someone less than God. Isn't that right? It seems like according to you that we are being changed into an “invisible image” that is less than God, is that right?
Your logic is flawed because it is like the “steel” that is used to make 2 hammers.
According to your logic the one hammer is not steel nor is it a hammer because it is not the original Hammer.
WJ
You err in this WJ.
The Father is the one true God.
Jesus is THE image of God.
We are made in the image of God and are being perfected and will be like Christ.So, if Jesus is the image and we are images, then that shows that we are like him and God is still the source.
In the words of Jesus himself, (not my words):
“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
Your point about the source not being able to exist without its image is unscientific and not logical either.
And your point about the hammer shows you have learned nothing.
You should give this subject up. It is way above your understanding as proven by your last post.
Quote (t8 @ April 01 2011,17:19) You err in this WJ. The Father is the one true God.
Jesus is THE image of God.
We are made in the image of God and are being perfected and will be like Christ.So, if Jesus is the image and we are images, then that shows that we are like him and God is still the source.
In the words of Jesus himself, (not my words):
“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
No t8You are the one that errs for the Father has an image which is his own image and that image is God.
But you deny the Father can be seen or has his own image and that Jesus is the visible image of God.
You deny that we are being made in Gods image because you say Jesus is not God and we know it is his (Jesus) Image that we are being made into.
You should give up the false teaching that Jesus is less God than the Father t8, because you give the impression that Jesus is not supreme ruler over all things at this time or that he is not the visible image of God which belongs to God alone.
WJ
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