Trinity &#8211; Is 1:18&#039;s Proof Text #2

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2007,11:05)

Hi charity,
Do you think Jesus is some sort of a reincarnation of David or have we misunderstood you?
He is the root and the offspring of David and David is as his “type” but he is before David and greater than him being even of origins greater than the angels, which is not the case for any puny human.

Reincarnation of David;
Depends from what you see as reincarnation; Body and Soul;
Christ has a prepared Body; leaving David’s body in the grave as told; and the soul receiving the sure mercy promised that it shall live; a body has thou prepared For David talks of his own promise that he has been chosen to fulfill Gods will

Yet Christ is a reincarnation raised now in the promised of a Incorruptible Body

Faithfull and true the Name he himself only New
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, ( soul to a New Body)
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.
I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

The New Body with the promise of sure mercy the Soul shall live
Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Incorruptible Body prepared to do Gods Will put to death TO RISE AGAIn
doing away with the first to Make way for the second. Was Not christs body leaving Only Davids Body done away with
Hbr 10:5 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hbr 10:6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

May 8, 2007 at 12:03 am#51633

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (charity @ May 08 2007,11:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2007,11:05)

Yet Christ is a reincarnation raised now in the promised of a Incorruptible Body

The New Body with the promise of sure mercy the Soul shall live
Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Charity

You are denying that Jesus has come in the flesh.

That is of the Spirit of anti Christ.

The words you speak are not scriptural.

May 8, 2007 at 12:06 am#51634

Participant

The Nature of the resurrected Body;
Now A Seed is Given a body first that you must have seed within; and be an offspring;
Born of a good seed not Bad

1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.
1Cr 15:35 ¶ But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Here The Adam Body is the first body That shall see corruption
Done away with to Make way for the second
But Many Have to come to THE kNOWLEDGE OF RESURRECTION fIRST; Being that Paul is attempting to bring forth the fact if you miss this the body shall in which you are in shall perish in a second death; as if never formed in the beginning as the Body Made in the Image of God.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

May 8, 2007 at 12:40 am#51637

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2007,12:03)

Quote (charity @ May 08 2007,11:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2007,11:05)

Yet Christ is a reincarnation raised now in the promised of a Incorruptible Body

The New Body with the promise of sure mercy the Soul shall live
Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Charity

You are denying that Jesus has come in the flesh.

That is of the Spirit of anti Christ.

The words you speak are not scriptural.

Hi W,
Certainly the Son of God, and not God Himself, has come in the flesh, a vessel for God as Spirit..

May 8, 2007 at 12:40 am#51639

Participant

The Son predestinate first born among Many

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The seed is predestinate to the Promise
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Isa 58:12 And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

How say some of you that God cannot Make the Fathers into the Children with new prepared bodies?

Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

You May set up another Age refusing these Judgment Days and the seed transported as gods and prepare another body for yourself; but as I see it that only leads to a rapture leaving the earth; which is the promise of the wicked believing hearts they shall be removed; and the righteous shall inherit the earth and live forever.

May 8, 2007 at 1:21 am#51646

Participant

Hi charity,
You are so bound to flesh that you do not see the kingdom which is not of this world.
David serves his master and lord, Christ.

May 8, 2007 at 4:30 am#51667

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2007,13:21)

Hi charity,
You are so bound to flesh that you do not see the kingdom which is not of this world.
David serves his master and lord, Christ.

The words Kingdom is not of this occur in 5 verses, including one exact phrase match shown first:

By one Mouth; you are taken away by he said Christ said?

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast that cast their crowns to ground and fall to worship the feet of the one sitting on the throne of the everlasting Kingdom

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it].

Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Mic 4:6 ¶ In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

May 8, 2007 at 4:38 am#51668

Participant

Hi charity,
Even the meek shall inherit the earth and the weak shall shame the strong in the power of the Spirit of God.

May 8, 2007 at 10:13 am#51694

Cult Buster

Participant

(The following was posted by Is 1:18 on April 23, 2007)

Okay short and sweet this time….

In the below passage Zechariah records a quite amazing prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

What’s significant (in the context of this debate submission) about the highlighted statement above is that the preceding verses (1, 4, 6 and 9) unmistakably bear out that it was a prophecy made by YHWH, and would be fulfilled by YHWH. YHWH foretold that they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will look upon “Me” whom they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced.

Zechariah 12:1-9
1The burden of the word of the LORD [YHWH] concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD [YHWH] who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2″Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3″It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4″In that day,” declares the LORD [YHWH], “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5″Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6″In that day I [YHWH] will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7″The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8″In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9″And in that day I [YHWH] will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

There is no mention of a secondary identity in the Zechariah's predictive prophecy. The “me” in “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” is YHWH. In the immediately-preceding verse YHWH affirmed “I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem”, which of course only the Almighty could accomplish. With that in mind, please consider Who it was that John taught fulfilled this prophecy:

John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

According to John, Zechariah 10:12 is a predictive reference to the piercing (vs 34) incurred by Yeshua during His crucifixion (“For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture” – v 36). Let me be as clear as I can here t8: Only YHWH could fulfill this prophecy, because it was made specifically by YHWH (through Zechariah) and of YHWH. It cannot be fulfilled by proxy, the piercing was to be incurred by YHWH and it is YHWH that would be looked upon. No one else, the language in the Zechariah text is unambiguous and does not allow for it. John unequivocally tells us that Yeshua literally fulfilled the Zech 12:10 prophecy at Calvary, but crucially He fulfilled it after His body had expired (v 33). The Roman soldiers and other bystanders (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) looked upon His lifeless body, but John and Zechariah tell us that this was the body of YHWH. So, the obvious implication here is: even His dead body was considered utterly divine, it was the body of YHWH. So any argument linking Yeshua's deity with His indwelling by the Holy Spirit is vaporised in this verse.

If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yahshua fulfills it, then He is YHWH. There is no other acceptable conclusion.

Now some questions for you t8:

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

Blessings

reason for edit – punctuation

You gottem well and truly stumped Isaiha!

May 8, 2007 at 6:57 pm#51715

Participant

Hi CB,
It is not a reasonable presumption to conclude by logic that Jesus is the God of Jesus.
Back to the drawing boards.

May 8, 2007 at 10:22 pm#51729

WhatIsTrue

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,16:01)

Okay short and sweet this time….

In the below passage Zechariah records a quite amazing prophecy:

If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yahshua fulfills it, then He is YHWH. There is no other acceptable conclusion.

Now some questions for you t8:

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

Q2) According to John's inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

Blessings

reason for edit – punctuation

This is what is known as wishful translation on the part of Trinitarians. As Kyle points out, the Zechariah passage, (as quoted by Is 1:18), reads awkwardly, and makes little literal sense. However, the Revised Standard Version translates the same passage this way:

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.”

Clearly, this version reads more cogently, and makes more grammatical sense. In fact, the quotation of this verse in John 19:37 confirms that the author of John translated the Zechariah passage in this same way!

“And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on him whom they pierced, (John 19:37).”

This passage is not about YHWH being literally pierced. It is about a third party, who is closely associated with YHWH, being pierced. Many popular Trinitarian translations attempt to confuse this fact, but it remains true nevertheless.

May 9, 2007 at 5:23 am#51784

Participant

Quote (Kyle @ May 08 2007,15:03)

I find this quite interesting. T8's view of this verse troubles me a bit. I don't see how it's grammatically impossible for it to refer to YHWH as the one being pierced. That seems to me to be the most plain understanding of this scripture. It does seem a bit odd that the one speaking would say “me” and then “him”, but take John 17:3 for instance:

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Christ speaks of himself in the third person here – at least in most of today's english translations. You obviously can't use logic in this case to prove that the one speaking isn't Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I just found that interesting.

Hi Kyle.

Are you saying that both ME and HIM are Jesus?

May 9, 2007 at 5:24 am#51785

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 10 2007,05:22)

This is what is known as wishful translation on the part of Trinitarians. As Kyle points out, the Zechariah passage, (as quoted by Is 1:18), reads awkwardly, and makes little literal sense. However, the Revised Standard Version translates the same passage this way:

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.”

Clearly, this version reads more cogently, and makes more grammatical sense. In fact, the quotation of this verse in John 19:37 confirms that the author of John translated the Zechariah passage in this same way!

“And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on him whom they pierced, (John 19:37).”

Thanks for this post WhatIsTrue.

I found this verse also awkward as it didn't make perfect sense grammatically speaking from any point of view including the Trinity view.

But I safely concluded that if ME and HIM are translated correctly, then it must be talking about 2 different identities. Fortunately I also said that there is the possibility of a fault in the translation. So my view was based solely upon the premise that the translation was faithful while admitting that this may not be the case.

It could be that the Revised Standard Version did a better job than the others in translating this verse. If that version is correct, then it is certainly clear in that it poses no contradiction and the grammar is sound.

May 9, 2007 at 5:31 am#51787

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 10 2007,01:57)

Hi CB,
It is not a reasonable presumption to conclude by logic that Jesus is the God of Jesus.
Back to the drawing boards.

Good one Nick.

May 9, 2007 at 9:19 am#51793

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 09 2007,10:22)

This is what is known as wishful translation on the part of Trinitarians. As Kyle points out, the Zechariah passage, (as quoted by Is 1:18), reads awkwardly, and makes little literal sense.

The OT is replete with passages that read awkwardly WIT. But the Hebrew-English translators primary job is to preserve the integrity of the texts, whether they read awkwardly or not. You should know that. It's “wishful” thinking to just make sweeping statements without any facts to substantiate them in the belief that the statements will sound authoritative anyway.

WIT, the overwhelming majority of English translations render Zech 12:10 more or less the same way as the version I quoted (NASB). I checked BibleGateway and it yielded 15 versions with the word “me”:

1. NIV
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

2. NASB
10″I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

3. KJV
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

4. NKJV
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

5. KJ21
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

6. ESV
10″And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

7. AMP
10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

8. MESS
10-14″Next I'll deal with the family of David and those who live in Jerusalem. I'll pour a spirit of grace and prayer over them. They'll then be able to recognize me as the One they so grievously wounded—that piercing spear-thrust! And they'll weep—oh, how they'll weep! Deep mourning as of a parent grieving the loss of the firstborn child.

9. NLT
10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.

10. ASV
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

11. YLT
10And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

12. DARBY
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

13. NIRV
10 “I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on David's family line. I will also send it on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look to me. I am the one they have pierced. They will sob over me as someone sobs over an only child who has died. They will be full of sorrow over me, just like someone who is full of sorrow over an oldest son.

14. NIVUK
10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

15. TNIV
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

While only 2 translated it this way:

1. NLV
10 “I will pour out the Spirit of loving-favor and prayer on the family of David and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look on Him Whose side they cut. They will cry in sorrow for Him, as one cries for an only son. They will cry much over Him, like those who have lost their first-born son.

2. CEV
10I, the LORD, will make the descendants of David and the people of Jerusalem feel deep sorrow and pray when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him, as parents weep over the death of their only child or their first-born.

But I'm sure you'll agree that the NLV and CEV don't pretend to be literal translations…..

Literally thousands of English Bible translators, the vast majority of them and the best in the business, deem the word “me” should be used in Zechariah 12:10. The onus is on you to show WHY they were wrong to think this.

Quote

However, the Revised Standard Version translates the same passage this way:

It&#3
9;s more likely that in John 19:37 John used a targum. He made a slight alteration of the Hebrew text in his Gospel to facilitate his personal understanding of the Zechariah passage. It's quite common practice for NT writers to do this, as you probably already know WIT. The NT is full of imperfectly translated, even paraphrased quotations OT scriptures. I think that John recognised that the “me” in the Zech 12:10 was Yeshua and his targum reflected this.

Quote

You have not provided one shred of evidence to substantiate this.

Blessings

May 9, 2007 at 3:44 pm#51800

TimothyVI

Participant

I haven't commented on this because I really think that T8 was right about their being two persons
in this passage, but for the wrong reason.

Please read Zec 12:9-10 as I have written it below. I only added one comma but it totally changes the
way the verse reads. As you know, there were no punctuation marks in the original Hebrew, so the translators added them where
they thought they should be.

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zec 12:9

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me, ( so far it is obviously God who is talking about himself, but now it changes and God is talking about Jesus.) whom they have pierced they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

It may help you to see what I mean if you read the word “whom” as the one, or the person.
Try it.

Tim

May 9, 2007 at 3:47 pm#51801

TimothyVI

Participant

In case you did not catch it. I added the comma after “look upon me.”

Tim

May 9, 2007 at 9:30 pm#51807

WhatIsTrue

Participant

Is 1:18,

I am merely pointing out that there is some dispute as to how to translate Zechariah 12:10. I cite John 19:37 as proof that an alternate reading of the text is appropriate. You are free to dispute these claims, (as you have), but they remain as a plausible alternative to your reading of the passage.

May 10, 2007 at 3:21 am#51826

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 09 2007,21:19)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 09 2007,10:22)

This is what is known as wishful translation on the part of Trinitarians. As Kyle points out, the Zechariah passage, (as quoted by Is 1:18), reads awkwardly, and makes little literal sense.

While only 2 translated it this way:

But I'm sure you'll agree that the NLV and CEV don't pretend to be literal translations…..

Quote

However, the Revised Standard Version translates the same passage this way:

Clearly, this version reads more cogently, and makes more gramma
tical sense. In fact, the quotation of this verse in John 19:37 confirms that the author of John translated the Zechariah passage in this same way!

It's more likely that in John 19:37 John used a targum. He made a slight alteration of the Hebrew text in his Gospel to facilitate his personal understanding of the Zechariah passage. It's quite common practice for NT writers to do this, as you probably already know WIT. The NT is full of imperfectly translated, even paraphrased quotations OT scriptures. I think that John recognised that the “me” in the Zech 12:10 was Yeshua and his targum reflected this.

Quote

You have not provided one shred of evidence to substantiate this.

Blessings

Hi Is 1.18,
If you had not built on the trinity theory would you be searching for such unusual verses and trying to show the Son of God could be called by the Father's holy name?

Given that it does not in any way actually teach a trinity idea of three in one, and only by splicing in a non existant similar verse about the Spirit of God could you even achieve a patchwork derivation, what is the point?

May 10, 2007 at 9:32 am#51844