Trinity – Is 1:18's Proof Text #2

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2007,08:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2007,04:18) LET US MAKE man in our image, after our likeness:… OK, WJ. If you are saying that this teaches the Trinity, a Triune God, or plural God, then given the language “us” it gives you a reason to call God “them”, “us”, “those”, etc. It means that when you pray to this Trinity, to be grammatically correct, you should say “Dear members of God”, or “Dear pesons who make up God”, etc. But I bet you call and type God as a “Him”, “He”, etc. So if you really believe your own teaching and doctrine, why don't you live it and talk of your God as “them”, etc. We call God “Him” because we believe that the Father is God, but what is your excuse?

t8

And yet you say that Yeshua according to John 1:1 John 10 is a god.

And your believing in a True God and other true gods, (of which you claim Jesus is one), makes sense?

So why dont you practice what you preach and say to your “Gods” plural, the Father and Yeshua, you are my saviours and you are my gods and my Lords!

This is what you believe is it not t8?

We believe according to the scriptures the Father, Son and
Holy Ghost is three persons in One being.

So as to not contradict scriptures that declare that “God” alone made all things and that the “Let us” you are speaking of is the One God as it says.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…

27 “SO GOD” created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice t8 the scriptures say “Let us make man”, then it says “So God created”.

As you can see Moses by the Holy Spirit speaks of God as Plural yet One also. See the “us” and the pronoun “His”?

So tell me t8, if you insert Yeshua in verse 26 and he is not God then how do you make verse 27 work?

If we take your view then verse 27 should read…

“the gods” created man in their own image, in the image of the gods created he him; male and female created he them.

As you know the Hebrew word “Elohim” is a plural word that Moses uses in a singular sense.

Your theology which claims Jesus is a lessor being and that God made all things through this lessor being is unscriptural!!!

When scriptures clearly say “God By himself” “Alone” and “None Other” created all things.

So when will you start calling Yeshua your Lord and god?

So when you speak of God as your Saviour t8 who are you taling about, Yeshua or the Father?

How many Saviours do you have?

Or when you say, “the Lord told me to do this or that”, who are you speaking of, the Father or Yeshua?

Or when you say “I serve One God” , who are you talking about, Yeshua or the Father?

Do you only serve the Father? Do you serve Jesus one day and the Father the next? How do you know which one you are serving?

Or when you say “I have the Spirit of God”, whos Spirit are you talking about the Fathers or Yeshuas? Or do you have more than “One Spirit” living inside of you?

So when you hear the Spirit of God speaking to you t8, is it the Father or Yeshua? How do you know the difference?

Is the Father the only one who speaks to you, if not how do you know if it is the Father or Yeshua?

Does Yeshua or the Father introduce themselves like this…

“hey t8 this is the Father Speaking. Or hey t8 this is Yeshua speaking”.

Who do you give credit to when God does something in your life? I can show you scriptures where it is Yeshua working in our lives.

When you refer to the Gospel, is it the Gospel of God or the Gospel of Yeshua?

The Henotheistic theology is not scriptural!
In fact it has many holes in it.

Namely this…

God is One.

Yet you say there is another “being” that was with him.

Your doctrine calls him “a god” or “a divine one” who God made all things through!

Your doctrine miss quotes John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was “a” god.

Or

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was divine.

Look, here is the true interpretation…

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

t8. Your doctrine does not align with the Monotheistic Hebrew scriptures.

There is no other beside him t8.

Look…

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

You call God a liar when you say some other being was beside him other than God that created all things..

Look again…

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

How do you explain this t8.

Oh and dont forget that God made all things “Through himself”.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

A man who truly desires to know the truth will be like the nobel Bereans who searched the scriptures and to know whether these things are true or not.

A man who is puffed up and unteachable is doomed to continue in their folly!

True doctrine reconciles all of scripture.

[IM4Truth]

I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God. What does Scripture say?
John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God.
So the Word has a beginning. It is not just a Plan in God's mind. That is not what it says.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning, since we know that the Almighty God had no beginning, the beginning is speaking of the Word, who later became Jesus. If something comes from God, would that not have the same name. My Son has the same name, doesn't yours?
John 1:3 All things was made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
This is all clear scriptures and some of us want to deny that, but why. It does not establishes the trinity, because we have other scriptures that tell us that the Father is greater then the Son.
Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in the hope of your calling.
verse 5 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
verse 6 ” ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH US ALL AND IN US ALL.

We have to take all of this in contact, not to get to confused. When you know that God is a title like any other name like ours, it becomes clear in our minds. The trouble with those that were taught the trinity Doctrine they can not see, this. I do not know why. And some do not belief that Jesus last name is God and that one day ours is going to be God also, it you want to believe the scriptures.
Jesus Christ God is not the Almighty Jehovah God. Christ is our mediator so that we are able to come to the throne of the Almighty God. Why is it that the Fathers name is not written in the new Testament.? Because the translators at the time had so much respect for the Almighty God and fear to pronounce it wrong , that they used God instead.
Jesus or the Word at the time was the only one that came from the Father God, nobody ever did again. All else was created by and through Jesus by the power of the Father. That is why it says 'Let us make man in our image.”
I have proven to myself that Jesus did preexisted as the Word. And left His Glory behind and became man, that is what it says in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father Glorify me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with you before the world was.” Ask yourself what was that Glory, it was that He was a Spirit Being before, not only did the Father that, but He also raised Him to the highest position available. He now sits with the Father on His Throne until He will come to rain for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God can be all in all.
1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[kenrch]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 10 2007,22:56)

I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God. What does Scripture say? John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God. So the Word has a beginning. It is not just a Plan in God's mind. That is not what it says. John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning, since we know that the Almighty God had no beginning, the beginning is speaking of the Word, who later became Jesus. If something comes from God, would that not have the same name. My Son has the same name, doesn't yours? John 1:3 All things was made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. This is all clear scriptures and some of us want to deny that, but why. It does not establishes the trinity, because we have other scriptures that tell us that the Father is greater then the Son. Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in the hope of your calling. verse 5 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; verse 6 ” ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH US ALL AND IN US ALL. We have to take all of this in contact, not to get to confused. When you know that God is a title like any other name like ours, it becomes clear in our minds. The trouble with those that were taught the trinity Doctrine they can not see, this. I do not know why. And some do not belief that Jesus last name is God and that one day ours is going to be God also, it you want to believe the scriptures. Jesus Christ God is not the Almighty Jehovah God. Christ is our mediator so that we are able to come to the throne of the Almighty God. Why is it that the Fathers name is not written in the new Testament.? Because the translators at the time had so much respect for the Almighty God and fear to pronounce it wrong , that they used God instead. Jesus or the Word at the time was the only one that came from the Father God, nobody ever did again. All else was created by and through Jesus by the power of the Father. That is why it says 'Let us make man in our image.” I have proven to myself that Jesus did preexisted as the Word. And left His Glory behind and became man, that is what it says in John 17:5 ” And now O Father Glorify me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with you before the world was.” Ask yourself what was that Glory, it was that He was a Spirit Being before, not only did the Father that, but He also raised Him to the highest position available. He now sits with the Father on His Throne until He will come to rain for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God can be all in all. 1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. Peace and Love Mrs.

He is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev3:14

Created all things. 1Cor. 1:16

He was sent by God. John 5:3, 30, 36, 37

Came from heaven. John 3:13

Was given a body. Heb. 10:5

Scriptures and scriptures only…..He preexisted!

But was HE “begotten” while in heaven? First born? Was Mary already in heaven. All other spirit beings were created SONS of God. Was the Spirit that became Jesus a “born” Son different from the other angels. Was He already “GOD?

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 10 2007,22:56)

I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God. What does Scripture say? John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God. So the Word has a beginning. It is not just a Plan in God's mind. That is not what it says. John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning, since we know that the Almighty God had no beginning, the beginning is speaking of the Word, who later became Jesus. If something comes from God, would that not have the same name. My Son has the same name, doesn't yours? John 1:3 All things was made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. This is all clear scriptures and some of us want to deny that, but why. It does not establishes the trinity, because we have other scriptures that tell us that the Father is greater then the Son. Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in the hope of your calling. verse 5 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; verse 6 ” ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH US ALL AND IN US ALL. We have to take all of this in contact, not to get to confused. When you know that God is a title like any other name like ours, it becomes clear in our minds. The trouble with those that were taught the trinity Doctrine they can not see, this. I do not know why. And some do not belief that Jesus last name is God and that one day ours is going to be God also, it you want to believe the scriptures. Jesus Christ God is not the Almighty Jehovah God. Christ is our mediator so that we are able to come to the throne of the Almighty God. Why is it that the Fathers name is not written in the new Testament.? Because the translators at the time had so much respect for the Almighty God and fear to pronounce it wrong , that they used God instead. Jesus or the Word at the time was the only one that came from the Father God, nobody ever did again. All else was created by and  through Jesus by the power of the Father. That is why it says 'Let us make man in our image.” I have proven to myself that Jesus did preexisted    as the Word. And left His Glory behind and became man, that is what it says in John 17:5 ” And now O Father Glorify me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with you before the world was.”                                                                                                        Ask yourself what was that Glory, it was that He was a Spirit Being before, not only did the Father that, but He also raised Him to the highest position available. He now sits with the Father on His Throne until He will come to rain for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God can be all in all. 1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. Peace and Love Mrs.

Im4truth

You say…

Quote

I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God.

I think I have been very clear who God is.

God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

You say…

Quote

What does Scripture say?

John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God.

Now unless you believe the eternal “Word” can change then the Word is still God!

Say no more!

Many believe in more than one true God, but this is not found in scriptures!

[IM4Truth]

Ken Does it not say that God gave us His only begotten Son, that soever believeth, believeth in Him should not perish, should not perish but have everlasting Life.
John 1;1 says that He was God. So He was according to scripture.
Hebrew 1:9 Thou has loved rightness is easy, but why it says hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness… was done after the Word had become Jesus. He had emptied Himself it says. So He became like us. No Maria was never in Heaven, She had nothing to do with the creation of the Word/Jesus. She was a vessel to give Jesus a Human Body. I just see these scriptures and I must say, what else can these scriptures say? The scriptures you quoted, also line up really nicely with what John is saying and with others. Did you know that the Catholic Church at one time wanted to take John out of the Bible? I wonder why?

Peace and Love Mrs.

[IM4Truth]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 11 2007,04:53)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 10 2007,22:56) I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God. What does Scripture say? John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God. So the Word has a beginning. It is not just a Plan in God's mind. That is not what it says. John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning, since we know that the Almighty God had no beginning, the beginning is speaking of the Word, who later became Jesus. If something comes from God, would that not have the same name. My Son has the same name, doesn't yours? John 1:3 All things was made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. This is all clear scriptures and some of us want to deny that, but why. It does not establishes the trinity, because we have other scriptures that tell us that the Father is greater then the Son. Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as we are called in the hope of your calling. verse 5 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; verse 6 ” ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH US ALL AND IN US ALL. We have to take all of this in contact, not to get to confused. When you know that God is a title like any other name like ours, it becomes clear in our minds. The trouble with those that were taught the trinity Doctrine they can not see, this. I do not know why. And some do not belief that Jesus last name is God and that one day ours is going to be God also, it you want to believe the scriptures. Jesus Christ God is not the Almighty Jehovah God. Christ is our mediator so that we are able to come to the throne of the Almighty God. Why is it that the Fathers name is not written in the new Testament.? Because the translators at the time had so much respect for the Almighty God and fear to pronounce it wrong , that they used God instead. Jesus or the Word at the time was the only one that came from the Father God, nobody ever did again. All else was created by and  through Jesus by the power of the Father. That is why it says 'Let us make man in our image.” I have proven to myself that Jesus did preexisted    as the Word. And left His Glory behind and became man, that is what it says in John 17:5 ” And now O Father Glorify me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with you before the world was.”                                                                                                        Ask yourself what was that Glory, it was that He was a Spirit Being before, not only did the Father that, but He also raised Him to the highest position available. He now sits with the Father on His Throne until He will come to rain for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God can be all in all. 1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. Peace and Love Mrs. Im4truth You say… Quote I would like to ask a question. You have gone around and around about who is God. I think I have been very clear who God is. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! You say… Quote What does Scripture say? John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word and the with God and the Word was God. Now unless you believe the eternal “Word” can change then the Word is still God! Say no more! Many believe in more than one true God, but this is not found in scriptures!

W.J. There is no trinity otherwise a lot of other scriptures woud contradict. The Father is greater then I. The Father is above all and others. No trinity in my Book.

Peace ands Love Mrs.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Im4truth

You say…

Quote

W.J.  There is no trinity otherwise a lot of other scriptures woud contradict. The Father is greater then I. The Father is above all and others. No trinity in my Book.

You say there is no trinity that is your belief.

Because the scriptures say The Father is greater than Yeshua does not speak of his nature as God.

For your Father may be greater than you, but are you any less human than him.

Besides if you believe the Father is greater than Yeshua in nature then that would mean Jesus is less than the “Image of God”. To be the Image of God and the Express image of his person/substance he would have to be God or you do not have Gods exact image do you.

We have his image but we are not “The Image of the invisible God” neither are we the exact representation of who God is. Col 1:15 and Heb 1:3.

Heb 1:3 NASB
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

The Greek word for 'exact representation or KJV says 'express image' is..'charaktēr' whcih means…

The exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile.

This word is used only of Yeshua in describing his very nature as being like the Fathers in every way. Every thing that makes the Father God, Yeshua is.

Besides if you believe that Jesus is the Word that was God and preexisted and that he is a lessor being than God, then you contradict scriptures by saying God through him made all things, for the Hebrew scriptures clearly teach that God “alone” “By himself” “None  Other” made all things.

To reconcile all scriptures the Trinitarian view is the only view that does without changing the translations or the text by interpreting them in another way than they are written.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[Worshipping Jesus]

kejonn,Nov. wrote:

[/quote]
Hey kejonn.

Hope you are doing well.

You say…

Quote

I have only one thing to add to this discussion. Gen 1:26  Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.” Gen 1:27  So God created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

What translation is that? No matter, you can call man humankind if you want, but the Hebrew word for man in verse 26 is the same Hebrew word for man in verse 27. “Adam” which means: man, mankind.

You say…

Quote

So God spoke with someone it seems and and said “Let us make humankind in our image” and in the next verse He made man in his own image.

Yes and the key is that he made man in “his own image” and the “Us” he was speaking of is the one who made man with him.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…

27 “SO GOD” created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice the scriptures say “Let us make man”, then it says “So God created”.

Also notice the “in our image” and “after our likenes” in verse 26, but yet in verse 27 it says “In his own image” “in the image of God”.

You say…

Quote

Now look to another passage Jdg 13:3  The angel of ADONAI appeared to the woman and said to her, “Listen! You are barren, you haven't had a child, but you will conceive and bear a son. Jdg 13:6  The woman came and told her husband; she said, “A man of God came to me; his face was fearsome, like that of the angel of God. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name. Jdg 13:10  The woman hurried and ran to tell her husband, “Here! That man, the one who came to me the other day, he's come again!” Jdg 13:11  Manoach got up, followed his wife, went to the man and said to him, “Are you the man who spoke to the woman?” He answered, “I am.” Jdg 13:13  The angel of ADONAI said to Manoach, “The woman should take care to do everything I said to her. Jdg 13:16  The angel of ADONAI said to Manoach, “Even if I do stay, I won't eat your food; and if you prepare a burnt offering, you must offer it to ADONAI.” For Manoach did not know that he was the angel of ADONAI. Jdg 13:19  Manoach took the kid and the grain offering and offered them on the rock to ADONAI. Then, with Manoach and his wife looking on, the angel did something wonderful – Jdg 13:20  as the flame went up toward the sky from the altar, the angel of ADONAI went up in the flame from the altar. When Manoach and his wife saw it, they fell to the ground on their faces. Jdg 13:21  But the angel of ADONAI did not appear again to Manoach or his wife. Then Manoach realized it had been the angel of ADONAI. Jdg 13:22  Manoach said to his wife, “We will surely die, because we have seen God!“ There are several elements to this story. First that the angel of YHWH looked like a man. Man is the image of God. Second they did not realize it was an angel until it did a miracle. Third, they associated seeing the angel, who they thought was a man, to seeing God. From this one can logically deduce that perhaps angels are also in the image of God just as men are but may have been the prototype for man's physical appearance. That is why God could say to the heavenly host “Let US make man in our image”.

I have already respnded to this and as you know kejonn, Trinitarians and some Henotheist believe that many times in the scriptures when you see a “Messenger” appear to the patriots that it was the pre-incarnate Yeshua, the “Word” that was with God and was God, appearing to them.

What makes you think that seeing an ordinary man that they would equate that to seeing God. For if the “angel, messenger” looked just like a man then how would they know he wasnt?

So we see there was something different about the messenger than that he looked like a man. Besides looking like a man who was created in the image of God does not equate to looking like God.

Jdg 13:6  The woman came and told her husband; she said, “A man of God came to me; his face was fearsome, like that of the angel of God. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name.

That looks like Yeshua to me.

Besides kejonn. Man being created in the image of God is not just his body or flesh and blood what we see with the natural eye. Man is Spirit. God is Spirit. So man being in his image is more than flesh and blood.

There is no scripture found in the bible that says angels are created in the image of God. Just because an angel or messenger can appear as a man dosnt mean they have Gods image or nature. Satan can appear as an angel of light.

You say…

Quote

Besides this, most scholars believe the “us” in Genesis 1:26 is plurals of majesty like when a queen or king says “Let us” when they are only referring to themselves.

Most scholars?

How can you make this statement. Over 600 scholars translated the scriptures on biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.com.

And there are many commentators who would disagree with that assesment of the verse.

You say…

Quote

Just a conjecture at this point. You can also see this ideal in other places where angels were called men (Gen 18).

Yes I agree it is just a conjecture at this point.

Because angels or messengers can appear in the form of men does not mean they were created in the image of God.

Man is a unique species. I believe what makes us unique is the fact that we unlike any other being are created in his image and likeness.

Ps 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (for a time), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

What makes men greater than angels. Is it power?

No, I believe it is in Nature, for man was made better than the angels.

Heb 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

[kenrch]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 11 2007,05:11)

Ken Does it not say that God gave us His only begotten Son, that soever believeth, believeth in Him should not perish, should not perish but have everlasting Life. John 1;1 says that He was God. So He was according to scripture. Hebrew 1:9 Thou has loved rightness is easy, but why it says hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness… was done after the Word had become Jesus. He had emptied Himself it says. So He became like us. No Maria was never in Heaven, She had nothing to do with the creation of the Word/Jesus. She was a vessel to give Jesus a Human Body. I just see these scriptures and I must say, what else can these scriptures say? The scriptures you quoted, also line up really nicely with what John is saying and with others. Did you know that the Catholic Church at one time wanted to take John out of the Bible? I wonder why? Peace and Love Mrs.

If Jesus was begotten while up in heaven then God the Father has a God the Wife and Mother of God the Son who has a playmate God the Holy Spirit

Jesus was begotten in the flesh BUT THAT'S MY OPINION AND REALLY DOESN'T MATTER ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BECAUSE HE GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME WEATHER BEGOTTEN IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH WEATHER THE FATHER HAS A WIFE AND MOTHER OF JESUS OR NOT…..HE STILL DIED FOR ME SO THAT I “MIGHT” LIVE. EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES MIGHT HAVE A “RIGHT” TO BE BORN AGAIN. John1:12.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2007,18:56)

t8 And yet you say that Yeshua according to John 1:1 John 10 is a god. And your believing in a True God and other true gods, (of which you claim Jesus is one), makes sense? So why dont you practice what you preach and say to your “Gods” plural, the Father and Yeshua, you are my saviours and you are my gods and my Lords! This is what you believe is it not t8?

Um, err, once again WJ, there is no “a” in Greek.

theos can be used as an adjective, but as a noun, or name, there is one (who is the true God).

Likewise, Adam was the name of the first man, but mankind is adam and there are billions who are adam.

I think you have run out of arguments WJ.

You say the same things even though the explanation has been given. Or perhaps you just don't read other people's posts? You have been given the answer many times, but I think the reason you repeat the same accusation is because you are hard of hearing.

There is one Adam (OK, a second Adam too) and there is one God. So I believe in one God and Adam. But Adam is not a being of 3 people and nor is God. In quality there are billions of adam, and many are also called theos. It is a fact and it is written.

It is you who believes that the ONE true God is three. So if I were your English teacher, I would be telling you to use plural language when referring to God, because it is normal to refer to people/persons, and you believe that there are 3 persons as God, so plurality is the correct format for your doctrine. Whereas those who believe that the Father is the one true God, then they have the right to call God a “him”, “he”.

So how confident are you of your own doctrine? Well if you cannot use plural language when referring to your God, then I would say that you are not that confident.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,10:56)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2007,18:56) t8 And yet you say that Yeshua according to John 1:1 John 10 is a god. And your believing in a True God and other true gods, (of which you claim Jesus is one), makes sense? So why dont you practice what you preach and say to your “Gods” plural, the Father and Yeshua, you are my saviours and you are my gods and my Lords! This is what you believe is it not t8? Um, err, once again WJ, there is no “a” in Greek. theos can be used as an adjective, but as a noun, or name, there is one (who is the true God). Likewise, Adam was the name of the first man, but mankind is adam and there are billions who are adam. I think you have run out of arguments WJ. You say the same things even though the explanation has been given. Or perhaps you just don't read other people's posts? You have been given the answer many times, but I think the reason you repeat the same accusation is because you are hard of hearing. There is one Adam (OK, a second Adam too) and there is one God. So I believe in one God and Adam. But Adam is not a being of 3 people and nor is God. In quality there are billions of adam, and many are also called theos. It is a fact and it is written. It is you who believes that the ONE true God is three. So if I were your English teacher, I would be telling you to use plural language when referring to God, because it is normal to refer to people/persons, and you believe that there are 3 persons as God, so plurality is the correct format for your doctrine. Whereas those who believe that the Father is the one true God, then they have the right to call God a “him”, “he”. So how confident are you of your own doctrine? Well if you cannot use plural language when referring to your God, then I would say that you are not that confident.

t8

You say…

Quote

It is you who believes that the ONE true God is three. So if I were your English teacher, I would be telling you to use plural language when referring to God, because it is normal to refer to people/persons, and you believe that there are 3 persons as God, so plurality is the correct format for your doctrine. Whereas those who believe that the Father is the one true God, then they have the right to call God a “him”, “he”.

Then you disagree with Moses who uses the plural word “Elohim” in a singular way.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…

27 “SO GOD” created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice the scriptures say “Let us make man”, then it says “So God created”.

Also notice the “in our image” and “after our likenes” in verse 26, but yet in verse 27 it says “In his own image” “in the image of God”.

Plural yet singular!

Can you see it?

It looks like this…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Or this…

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

All creation reveals the Glory of God, for the building blocks of creation shows plurality in oneness!

You say…

Quote

Whereas those who believe that the Father is the one true God, then they have the right to call God a “him”, “he”.

Which god are you talking about? With your viewpoint, if you refer to God as a he or him without a name you could be talking about any god right?

For you dont believe the Father is the only ONE true God!

For you also believe that Yeshua, men and angels are true gods also dont you?

[Proclaimer]

OK, WJ.

You cannot understand it for whatever reason.

I will ask you a question.

How many adams are there?
adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis.

[kenrch]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:19)

OK, WJ. You cannot understand it for whatever reason. I will ask you a question. How many adams are there? adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis.

TWO
Two Adams
Their are two of you. The first and the second “being born again”

[Proclaimer]

What's WJ's answer?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:19)

OK, WJ. You cannot understand it for whatever reason. I will ask you a question. How many adams are there? adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis.

t8

Why should I answer your question?

You say you have answered mine but you have not.

I have already seen your distorted twist of Adam and Eve and you interpretation of Identity and nature and its false application to the Godhead.

Tell you what t8, answer this and I will answer you.

How many Gods or gods created all things in light of the following scriptures…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

   

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 12 2007,04:27)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:19) OK, WJ. You cannot understand it for whatever reason. I will ask you a question. How many adams are there? adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis. TWO Two Adams Their are two of you. The first and the second “being born again”

In the beginning there was the Word that's ONE
The Word was with God That's TWO.:)

Where is the third Person?

Two Adams. The first brought death. The second brought life.

Each of us consist of two. The old man (Adam) and the second man (Jesus the second Adam).

Their was Cain and Able. Bad and Good.

The tree had knowledge of (1) good (2) evil.

One~Old Testament~Two~ New testament.

Male and female.

Sorry male and male or female and female is ONE

Two, Two, Two in one.

Behold TWO have become ONE!

Do you see it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 13 2007,03:04)

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 12 2007,04:27) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:19) OK, WJ. You cannot understand it for whatever reason. I will ask you a question. How many adams are there? adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis. TWO Two Adams   Their are two of you.  The first and the second “being born again” In the beginning there was the Word that's ONE The Word was with God That's TWO.:) Where is the third Person?   Two Adams.  The first brought death.  The second brought life. Each of us consist of two.  The old man (Adam) and the second man (Jesus the second Adam). Their was Cain and Able.  Bad and Good. The tree had knowledge of (1) good (2) evil. One~Old Testament~Two~ New testament. Male and female. Sorry male and male or female and female is ONE Two, Two, Two in one.   Behold TWO have become ONE! Do you see it?

kenrch

So then who is this…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 12 2007,17:46)

Why should I answer your question?

OK, fair enough.

I will answer it for you then.

Ignoring the second Adam, there was one Adam, but there are also billions of adams.

So if you said that billions of adams conflicts with the fact that there is one Adam or original, then I could easily show you that there is indeed no conflict, because the difference is identity and nature/quality. Likewise your accusations regarding me believing in one true Theos, and acknowledging other beings who are referred to as theos should now be understandable to your intellect. Besides that, I am only acknowledging the truth that we read in scripture. That “theos” is applied to more than the one true God.

There is one God in identity and many in nature or quality who are called “theos”. That is how the bible uses the word “theos”.

The trouble for you is that in identity you state that there are 3 who are the one true “theos”. That makes you a polytheist, the very charge you have brought against me in the past. Funny what happens when you point the finger.

But I believe that there is one theos in identity, namely the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I believe in one God.

Do you see that? As I have said many times in the past, you are utterly confused by the difference between identity and nature/quality.

Apart from Adam/adam, Devil/devil is also a title that can be used to identity or speak of many regarding nature/quality.

Thank you for listening and hopefully that wraps it up for you.

This post was brought to you by the letter T (for theos).

[kenrch]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2007,09:46)

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 13 2007,03:04) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 12 2007,04:27) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:19) OK, WJ. You cannot understand it for whatever reason. I will ask you a question. How many adams are there? adam as in the Hebrew sense of the word in Genesis. TWO Two Adams Their are two of you. The first and the second “being born again” In the beginning there was the Word that's ONE The Word was with God That's TWO.:) Where is the third Person? Two Adams. The first brought death. The second brought life. Each of us consist of two. The old man (Adam) and the second man (Jesus the second Adam). Their was Cain and Able. Bad and Good. The tree had knowledge of (1) good (2) evil. One~Old Testament~Two~ New testament. Male and female. Sorry male and male or female and female is ONE Two, Two, Two in one. Behold TWO have become ONE! Do you see it? kenrch So then who is this… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Who is he kenrch? Do you see it?

You know I wanted to ask you why is it this third person (part of God) unlike the Son Speak? Does this third person “think”. have any authority at all? Seems the third person is as a mocking bird.

If the third person doesn't speak or think then why is it a person? Is this person deaf and dumb?

I believe the Holy Spirit is part of God because God is Spirit. But how does God's Spirit make him a third separate person?

The Son on the other hand is a person with His own spirit just as you and I. Does the Holy Spirit have a spirit of His own?

Is your spirit a separate person? We are created in His image.

No matter God is one! Weather two in one, three in one OR one in one. God is still ONE

Will we be of God? Children of the Most high brethren of Jesus as scripture says? God will be all in all. How many will God be?

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2007,15:00)

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 10 2007,09:23) Hey kejonn. Hope you are doing well. You say… Quote I have only one thing to add to this discussion. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.” Gen 1:27 So God created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. What translation is that? No matter, you can call man humankind if you want, but the Hebrew word for man in verse 26 is the same Hebrew word for man in verse 27. “Adam” which means: man, mankind.

Its CJB, sorry. I found it on the web as an e-sword module. It was translated by a Messianic Jew.

Quote

You say… Quote So God spoke with someone it seems and and said “Let us make humankind in our image” and in the next verse He made man in his own image. Yes and the key is that he made man in “his own image” and the “Us” he was speaking of is the one who made man with him.

But while He said “Let us” the next verse says He (alone) created man.

Quote

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:… 27 “SO GOD” created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Notice the scriptures say “Let us make man”, then it says “So God created”. Also notice the “in our image” and “after our likenes” in verse 26, but yet in verse 27 it says “In his own image” “in the image of God”.

Yes but what does this prove?

Quote

You say… Quote Now look to another passage Jdg 13:3 The angel of ADONAI appeared to the woman and said to her, “Listen! You are barren, you haven't had a child, but you will conceive and bear a son. Jdg 13:6 The woman came and told her husband; she said, “A man of God came to me; his face was fearsome, like that of the angel of God. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name. Jdg 13:10 The woman hurried and ran to tell her husband, “Here! That man, the one who came to me the other day, he's come again!” Jdg 13:11 Manoach got up, followed his wife, went to the man and said to him, “Are you the man who spoke to the woman?” He answered, “I am.” Jdg 13:13 The angel of ADONAI said to Manoach, “The woman should take care to do everything I said to her. Jdg 13:16 The angel of ADONAI said to Manoach, “Even if I do stay, I won't eat your food; and if you prepare a burnt offering, you must offer it to ADONAI.” For Manoach did not know that he was the angel of ADONAI. Jdg 13:19 Manoach took the kid and the grain offering and offered them on the rock to ADONAI. Then, with Manoach and his wife looking on, the angel did something wonderful – Jdg 13:20 as the flame went up toward the sky from the altar, the angel of ADONAI went up in the flame from the altar. When Manoach and his wife saw it, they fell to the ground on their faces. Jdg 13:21 But the angel of ADONAI did not appear again to Manoach or his wife. Then Manoach realized it had been the angel of ADONAI. Jdg 13:22 Manoach said to his wife, “We will surely die, because we have seen God!“ There are several elements to this story. First that the angel of YHWH looked like a man. Man is the image of God. Second they did not realize it was an angel until it did a miracle. Third, they associated seeing the angel, who they thought was a man, to seeing God. From this one can logically deduce that perhaps angels are also in the image of God just as men are but may have been the prototype for man's physical appearance. That is why God could say to the heavenly host “Let US make man in our image”. I have already respnded to this and as you know kejonn, Trinitarians and some Henotheist believe that many times in the scriptures when you see a “Messenger” appear to the patriots that it was the pre-incarnate Yeshua, the “Word” that was with God and was God, appearing to them.

Yet there is not a shred of evidence for this — all assumption and reading into the scriptures. It never once says a thing about Yeshua or “the Word”.

Quote

What makes you think that seeing an ordinary man that they would equate that to seeing God. For if the “angel, messenger” looked just like a man then how would they know he wasnt?

They did not know until he did something miraculous. That is when they said they had seen God.

Quote

So we see there was something different about the messenger than that he looked like a man. Besides looking like a man who was created in the image of God does not equate to looking like God.

No because God is spirit! But where does the actual physical appearance of man come from if not God? Could it be angels?

Quote

Jdg 13:6 The woman came and told her husband; she said, “A man of God came to me; his face was fearsome, like that of the angel of God. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name. That looks like Yeshua to me.

Why? Are you going to believe as JWs do and say Yeshua is/was an angel?

Quote

Besides kejonn. Man being created in the image of Go d is not just his body or flesh and blood what we see with the natural eye. Man is Spirit. God is Spirit. So man being in his image is more than flesh and blood.

Righto! Could it be our spirit and perhaps soul is in the image of God and our physical body is the image of angels?

Quote

There is no scripture found in the bible that says angels are created in the image of God. Just because an angel or messenger can appear as a man dosnt mean they have Gods image or nature. Satan can appear as an angel of light.

Yes but I wonder if angels have the three components we have: body, spirit, and soul? Perhaps we are a composite of God and His angels!

Quote

You say… Quote Besides this, most scholars believe the “us” in Genesis 1:26 is plurals of majesty like when a queen or king says “Let us” when they are only referring to themselves. Most scholars? How can you make this statement. Over 600 scholars translated the scriptures on biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.com. And there are many commentators who would disagree with that assesment of the verse.

I know my Ryrie study bible says that. You won't find too many scholars supporting this verse as proof of the trinity anymore. Most trinitarians gave up on Gen 1:26 as a “proof text” long ago.

Quote

You say… Quote Just a conjecture at this point. You can also see this ideal in other places where angels were called men (Gen 18). Yes I agree it is just a conjecture at this point. Because angels or messengers can appear in the form of men does not mean they were created in the image of God. Man is a unique species. I believe what makes us unique is the fact that we unlike any other being are created in his image and likeness. Ps 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (for a time), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: What makes men greater than angels. Is it power? No, I believe it is in Nature, for man was made better than the angels. Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Again, I think that perhaps we can be greater than angels because we have the spirit created in the image of God but the physical appearance of angels. We are the ultimate composite being!

[Author]

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