Trinity – Is 1:18's Proof Text #2

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

God's word is eternal. The truth today has always been the truth and will always be the truth. In light of the eternal word, instead of stating the scriptures don't say that God begat Christ before Mary, you should ask, do the scriptures say that God did not begat Christ before conceived in Mary? Is not his word eternal? Is not his will eternal? Do you think that God could not have had a Son before creation?

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

The first page of the sight you referred me to states that Christ is the Almighty God of the old testament. There must be more than one trinitarian doctrine if you believe in the trinity as I understand it. I'll check out your site in more detail.

Take Care

Steven

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,16:15)

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 07 2007,16:21) Check out this guy :P. From Prototokos Colossians 1:15 describes Jesus Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Lately, some have said that firstborn here means “preeminent.” Undoubtedly it can be used as such, but its more natural meaning is “the first to open the womb.” Creation (ktisis) “denotes a particular created thing” (Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, p. 897), meaning in this case, “humans” or “humanity.” This phrase, then, could be translated: “the first born of humanity.” But was not Adam (or more technically, Cain) the firstborn of humanity? This does not seem to fit Jesus Christ. He was the firstborn of Mary, but He came four thousand years after Adam and Cain! What does Paul mean here? He is not discussing preeminence, especially when he links it to “the image of the invisible God.” Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26). Paul is writing about humanity being born into the Family of God! Jesus Christ is indeed first! He is the first of all humanity to be born as God. Three verses later he writes, “He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18). It is so obvious! He is writing about a resurrection, a birth from physical to spiritual, from humanity to God! Lest you think this guy is supporting the Trinity, he is actually supporting the idea that we will all be God! Yeow. kejonn You say… Quote Lest you think this guy is supporting the Trinity, he is actually supporting the idea that we will all be God! Yeow. Misrepresentation is a sign of weakness, I dont expect that from you.

Shall I prove this one to you? Ok, sorry to disabuse you .

The person who wrote this commentary John W. Ritenbaugh. He has a series called “We shall be God!”. Here are some quotes from his first part found here.

This is what I believe has happened to us. First we were told clearly, we were going to be very God. Now we are told we are going to be children of God.

God is showing us in simple terminology that He is reproducing Himself! He is God! He is not reproducing somebody who is slightly greater than angels, but less than God. He is reproducing that which is the same as what He is, because He is our Father.

Man is not going to be a greater man. He is not going to be an angel. He is going to be God!

Brethren, this is what we are being formed into—greater than angels, fully God! This is what we are going to share, as His brethren.

Let me ask WJ, when we become God, what happens to the Trinity?

Please take the time to read things before you accuse me of misrepresenting.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,16:18)

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 07 2007,15:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2007,18:56) Mr steve You have never seen me say the “logos” is eternally begotten. I believe the 'Logos” which was with God and was God is not the spoken logos. The Logos that was God took on the likeness of sinfull flesh without diminishing his nature as the Word/God, for God can not change and neither could the “Logos”. Jesus became the Only Begotten Son of God when he came in the flesh and was born a man. There is no scripture that says Yeshua was begotten before his natural birth. Except Col 1:15, which the commentators of bible.cc disagree with you. See my last post. kejonn Where is the scripture that says Yeshua was the begotten Son of God before his birth?

It doesn't. So then what do we have…again, why bother calling Yeshua “firstborn of all creation”? Do you know of any other “firstborn” in the Bible that did not apply to something that was not begotten in some fashion? Is God “firstborn” anything? It says Yeshua is…so how then can he be God since God cannot be “firstborn”?

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,17:43)

Dont waste your time. The word “Begotten” is not found in scriptures referring to the Son before his natural birth.

So wait…if they call the Father the unbegotten God, and the Son the begotten God, don't we have 2 Gods? Because obviously one is not the same as the other.

Hey, didn't God say he does not change (Mal 3:6)? So where in the OT does it say that YHWH will send a part of Himself down to take on flesh and die on a cruel cross for man's salvation. I think that would be a pretty big change.

Quote

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? This is post ressurection. Begotten only relates to his natural birth. He was the “Word that was God” before taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh. There is no scripture that says he was a Son before he was born a Son. He is YHWH in the flesh.

There it is again. Hmmmm….the Bible says “God is spirit” yet Yeshua was flesh and spirit, and Mal 3:6 says YHWH does not change. Woops, seems you have an change there.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 08 2007,12:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,16:15) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 07 2007,16:21) Check out this guy :P. From Prototokos Colossians 1:15 describes Jesus Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Lately, some have said that firstborn here means “preeminent.” Undoubtedly it can be used as such, but its more natural meaning is “the first to open the womb.” Creation (ktisis) “denotes a particular created thing” (Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, p. 897), meaning in this case, “humans” or “humanity.” This phrase, then, could be translated: “the first born of humanity.” But was not Adam (or more technically, Cain) the firstborn of humanity? This does not seem to fit Jesus Christ. He was the firstborn of Mary, but He came four thousand years after Adam and Cain! What does Paul mean here? He is not discussing preeminence, especially when he links it to “the image of the invisible God.” Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26). Paul is writing about humanity being born into the Family of God! Jesus Christ is indeed first! He is the first of all humanity to be born as God. Three verses later he writes, “He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18). It is so obvious! He is writing about a resurrection, a birth from physical to spiritual, from humanity to God! Lest you think this guy is supporting the Trinity, he is actually supporting the idea that we will all be God! Yeow. kejonn You say… Quote Lest you think this guy is supporting the Trinity, he is actually supporting the idea that we will all be God! Yeow. Misrepresentation is a sign of weakness, I dont expect that from you. Shall I prove this one to you? Ok, sorry to disabuse you  . The person who wrote this commentary John W. Ritenbaugh. He has a series called “We shall be God!”. Here are some quotes from his first part found here. This is what I believe has happened to us. First we were told clearly, we were going to be very God. Now we are told we are going to be children of God. God is showing us in simple terminology that He is reproducing Himself! He is God! He is not reproducing somebody who is slightly greater than angels, but less than God. He is reproducing that which is the same as what He is, because He is our Father. Man is not going to be a greater man. He is not going to be an angel. He is going to be God! Brethren, this is what we are being formed into—greater than angels, fully God! This is what we are going to share, as His brethren. Let me ask WJ, when we become God, what happens to the Trinity? Please take the time to read things before you accuse me of misrepresenting.

kejonn

OK I see. I think I misunderstood you.

You were saying the other guy dosnt suport the Trinity! Correct. DAH!

Sorry. No I dont believe we are gonna be gods. Just confirms my gut feeling about you, that you do not misrepresent as some do.

Again… Humbly opologise!

Blessings

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 08 2007,12:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2007,17:43) Dont waste your time. The word “Begotten” is not found in scriptures referring to the Son before his natural birth. So wait…if they call the Father the unbegotten God, and the Son the begotten God, don't we have 2 Gods? Because obviously one is not the same as the other. Hey, didn't God say he does not change (Mal 3:6)? So where in the OT does it say that YHWH will send a part of Himself down to take on flesh and die on a cruel cross for man's salvation. I think that would be a pretty big change. Quote Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? This is post ressurection. Begotten only relates to his natural birth. He was the “Word that was God” before taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh. There is no scripture that says he was a Son before he was born a Son. He is YHWH in the flesh. There it is again. Hmmmm….the Bible says “God is spirit” yet Yeshua was flesh and spirit, and Mal 3:6 says YHWH does not change. Woops, seems you have an change there.

kejonn

You say…

Quote

So wait…if they call the Father the unbegotten God, and the Son the begotten God, don't we have 2 Gods? Because obviously one is not the same as the other.

No it dosnt make two Gods. Again, the Word/God who is and was Spirit came in the flesh without diminishing his diety. Phil 2.

The “Word” the Eternal life that was with the Father from everlasting, Yeshua, who is and was Spirit can not change.

For if he was the express representation of his substance, Heb 1:3, and if he changed when he came in the flesh, then he would no longer be the express image of the Invisible God would he?

If he changed then he wouldnt be the One who preexisted.

Jn 1:1
The Word was with God and the Word was God

Mal 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Yeshua is the “Lord from heaven”.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The same Spirit of Jesus did not die. How could he? He was and is the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father, 1Jn 1:1,2, and he was and is the ressurection and the life.

Jesus gave the life of his flesh, his Body for our sins. This was all the demands of God required for sin.

Lev 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The life of the flesh is in the blood. It was his body and blood that saved us. And when we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood which is now one with the Word and Spirit, then we have his “Eternal Life in us”.

Jesus said he that liveth and believeth on me shall never die.

Jn 6:50,51
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Heb 10:
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus Spirit that lived in the tabernacle of the flesh that died, this same Jesus who is and was the Word/God went into the belly of the earth for three days and three nights to preach to the Spirits in prison (Matt 12:40, 1 Peter 3:18-20)and led captivity captive (Ehp 4:7-10).

Yeshua the Word/God came in the flesh and gave his Body and blood for the life of all mankind.

God did not die. For the body without the Spirit is dead. James 2:26

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, *which he hath purchased with his own blood*.

Truly the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.

Only God could be our Saviour, and Only God is!

[kejonn]

Hey WJ,

Will reply later, but wanted to point out one verse. I hate to say it, but many times we see that many Trinitarian supporting verses have issues. Acts 20:28 is one of them. The ASV says “church of the Lord” and many Bibles make notes that “many manuscripts say 'church of the Lord'” (NIV, HCSB, AMP, ESV, NCV). So one has to wonder who tampered? Could be either “side” depending on how you want to view it! But you have to honest and admit that the RCC has been found guilty of tampering with the manuscripts…and we know the RCC view!

[kejonn]

Hey WJ,

For clarity on Acts 20:28, let's see what one of the early church fathers, Irenaeus, quoted in Against Heresies, Book III

“I know that ye shall see my face no more. Therefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed, therefore, both to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has placed you as bishops, to rule the Church of the Lord, which He has acquired for Himself through His own blood.”

Seems he clarifies what the original text said.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 09 2007,00:32)

Hey WJ, For clarity on Acts 20:28, let's see what one of the early church fathers, Irenaeus, quoted in Against Heresies, Book III “I know that ye shall see my face no more. Therefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed, therefore, both to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has placed you as bishops, to rule the Church of the Lord, which He has acquired for Himself through His own blood.” Seems he clarifies what the original text said.

kejonn

No contradictions there. For you see most of the early Fathers believed Lord also means God.

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zech 14:
[3] Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (YHWH) my God shall *come*, and all the saints with thee.
[6] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
[7] But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (YHWH), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
[8] And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
[9] And the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The above is a clear picture of YWHW, coming and standing on the mount of Olives. In that day there shall be “ONE LORD (YWHW)”.

The question one has to ask is, “will there be a day that Yeshua will not be “Lord?

The above is witness to Yeshua being YHWH in the flesh for he shall come with his saints.

No where in New Testament scriptures is there evidence that the Father is coming to earth.

Yeshua is returning in the Glory of his Father with the Holy Angels.

[kejonn]

WJ,

I don't know about the “Lord means God” scenario for the early fathers. Do you have a reference? I will say that I do believe that the early fathers used the Septuagint though, and the best I can tell, YHWH did not make it over into the Septuagint. I think then YHWH was replaced with “Lord” in the Greek OT. Can you then imagine the confusion that came from this?

I asked Is 1:18 to explain Zech 14 for me since I don't see it as a prophecy for Yeshua, but I can see where you get your idea. Are you saying though that this is a prophecy that has yet to come? It would seem so. Yeshua did step foot onto the Mount of Olives, but the rest of Zech 14:4 has not taken place. Not unless we haven't been informed .

There is one problem with your post, and here it is:

Quote

The question one has to ask is, “will there be a day that Yeshua will not be “Lord?

The wording is not quite there, but if one is subject to another, then the “person” who is above is Lord. Therefore, you must contend with the following passage:

1Cr 15:24   then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  
1Cr 15:25   For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  
1Cr 15:26   The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  
1Cr 15:27   For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  
1Cr 15:28   When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

“He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father” matches rather nicely with “And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.”

So, yes, in the end Yeshua will hand over the kingdom to the One who sent him: God the Father. And in that day, the Father will be “king over all the earth”.

Its amazing how scripture backs up scripture the way it does.

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

You don't believe that the Son of God existed before coming to earth so explain how Christ turns over the Kingdom to the One who sent him? How can one be sent if he does not exist?

Mr. Steve

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 08 2007,12:46)

WJ; You don't believe that the Son of God existed before coming to earth so explain how Christ turns over the Kingdom to the One who sent him?  How can one be sent if he does not exist?   Mr. Steve

Was that meant for me or WJ? WJ believes Yeshua has eternally existed with the Father as God.

And I also believe that Yeshua had some form of prior existence. So who are you addressing?

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 08 2007,01:19)

No it dosnt make two Gods. Again, the Word/God who is and was Spirit came in the flesh without diminishing his diety. Phil 2. The “Word” the Eternal life that was with the Father from everlasting, Yeshua, who is and was Spirit can not change. For if he was the express representation of his substance, Heb 1:3, and if he changed when he came in the flesh, then he would no longer be the express image of the Invisible God would he?

“Express” image? Where did that word come from? He obviously had to change if you want to apply Phil 2 to him. After all, the basis says he had the form of God. Is God flesh? No God is spirit and without form, so his form cannot be God's. But since he is called the image of God, its time to go back to Genesis 1. Whose image are we created in? God. Yeshua was a man. The word for “form” in Phil 2:8 is “morphe” and every other instance the word is used in the NT and OT Septuagint, it means outward appearance. So it seems that he was in the same form as all of us: man.

But then it goes on to say that he did not think that equality with God was something to be grasped. So here, Paul is saying that Yeshua did not think himself as equal with God. Finally, he took on the form of a bond-servant, and that signifies a man who humbles himself and serves. So as Messiah he could have been a great and powerful King, but instead, he was chosen to be a humble servant, even to the death on the cross.

Quote

If he changed then he wouldnt be the One who preexisted.

And why is that so important? It only is if you say he is God, who does not change.  Are you saying that he was flesh before he came?

Quote

Jn 1:1 The Word was with God and the Word was God

This verse has become your mantra!

Quote

Yeshua is the “Lord from heaven”. 1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If you use the KJV he is! Most others read “man from heaven” which signifies our spiritual side, our rebirth. That's the context too.

Quote

The same Spirit of Jesus did not die. How could he? He was and is the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father, 1Jn 1:1,2, and he was and is the ressurection and the life. Jesus gave the life of his flesh, his Body for our sins. This was all the demands of God required for sin. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. The life of the flesh is in the blood. It was his body and blood that saved us. And when we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood which is now one with the Word and Spirit, then we have his “Eternal Life in us”. Jesus said he that liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Jn 6:50,51 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Heb 10: 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Jesus Spirit that lived in the tabernacle of the flesh that died, this same Jesus who is and was the Word/God went into the belly of the earth for three days and three nights to preach to the Spirits in prison (Matt 12:40, 1 Peter 3:18-20)and led captivity captive (Ehp 4:7-10). Yeshua the Word/God came in the flesh and gave his Body and blood for the life of all mankind. God did not die. For the body without the Spirit is dead. James 2:26

So what died on the cross then? Was it all for nought? Was it good enough that the fleshly tent perished, but yet was raised again? After all, Lazarus was raised as well, and yet there was little value in that beyond that God was glorified.

Quote

Truly the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. Only God could be our Saviour, and Only God is!

God is Savior because He is the source of salvation. Yet He can send a Savior as well:

Isa 19:20  It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He will deliver them.

Now, why would God “send” a Savior if God IS the Savior? Is YHWH saying He will send Himself here?

[Mr. Steve]

Kejonn;

Where are the threads?

Steven

[Cult Buster]

quote Worshipping Jesus.

Quote

kejonn No contradictions there. For you see most of the early Fathers believed Lord also means God.

Thomas certainly believed it.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Rom 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

[Mr. Steve]

Kejonn;

WJ is short for WorshippingJesus. He does not believe that Christ was the Son of God prior to coming to earth. He believes he was the Word and was God. I contend that if Christ was not the Son of God prior he did not exist prior. You cannot have a “Will” as Christ had and not be a person. A word does not have a Will. There are a good many Christians in WJs camp, without realizing what they believe contradicts what Christ taught. Christ prayers also reveal a prior relationship with the Father as the Son of God. Naturally, WJ can correct me if I've unintentionally misinterpreted what he believes.

Mr. Steve

[Cult Buster]

Mr Steve. WJ means Worshipping Jesus. And that is exactly what Stephen was doing.

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus.
Look!

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60  And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.

See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)

Act 7:59  and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60  and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
 

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.

Rev 19:10  tells us to worship only God:

Jesus is Yahweh God    

Rom 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

[Mr. Steve]

CB;

I worship Christ as the Son of God, not as God the Father. I believe Christ was sent by the Father he was not the Father. However, I believe that the Fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ so when you worship Christ you are also glorifying and worshipping the Father simultaneously.

Steven

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 15 2007,23:29)

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Look! Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge

Context please.

It is deceptive to paint a different context. This type of deception is from the Father of Lies.

Here is the true context:

Acts 7:56
Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

So he is at God's right hand side. It is written.

You knew about this verse but chose not to include it, so as to strengthen your inaccurate argument. That is wrong and no good can come of it.

[Author]

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