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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2007,10:23) Nope, it dosnt say Jesus is not God!
WJ.It doesn't say Jesus isn't God because no one was saying he was. It is also not written that Mary was the mother of God either, but that issue like the Trinity came later.
The following verse while talking about the plan of God, indirectly states that Jesus isn't God.
I give this verse not for you WJ, but for the readers.
I know for you, this verse will be like water off a ducks back and scripture has no influence on you if it disagrees or contradicts your creed.1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Is 1:18
Quote Just in closing, it’s interesting to compare verse 28 with a passage that Paul penned in his letter to the Colossians (Col. 3:11) When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
cf.
a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11, cf. Eph. 1:23)
The grammar that was used of “God” in 1 Corinthians was also used of “Christ” in Colossians. I really like what C. H. Spurgeon wrote about this verse – “for Christ is not almost all, but all in all.” (source). Indeed Christ is all. Amen to that.
A very good point Isaiha!
Re. t8's “proof texts”
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.These verses and others have been utilized historically by heretics such as the Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), to try to “prove” that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh.
Upon closer inspection, however, a clearer picture emerges.
See the following.Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Christ subjected Himself to the Father in order to undertake His role as the Incarnate Son and Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5).
Similarly, one might say that “the President of the United States is a greater man than I am,” but this would not mean he was necessarily a better man. In any event, he is still a man like us.
Since Jesus is still God, even while “humbling” Himself (Phil 2:8), Scripture also indicates that the Father is, in a sense, “subject” to the Son:
JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.
JOHN 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give {it} you.In 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son during the incarnation and Messiahship, not the Son as Son in his essence as God. While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,”
Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”
Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 01 2007,04:24) Hello Kejonn, hope you have been keeping well. I only have a little time so just wanted to pick up on a few of your points, if I may.
Hey, IS, good to “hear” from you! Hope you have also been up to nothing but good.Quote Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 01 2007,16:34) No doubt. Too bad that this is from Psalm 45 which is about an earthly king. If an earthly king can be called God, I guess Yeshua can too.
Yes the context of this verse in Psalm 45 apparently deals with an earthly king, but it is not at all unusual for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that ostensibly deals with one subject and apply it to another. I think it’s far more important to look at the context that the writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6 into, than the context of the passage it came from. The writer applied it to Jesus, therefore, by default, Psalm 45:6 is a Messianic verse. I tend to think that the NT writer correctly handle scripture and have a Holy Spirit-inspired understanding of these OT texts that far surpasses ours. Or maybe you have some inside knowledge on Psa 45:6 that the writer of Hebrews wasn’t privy to Kejonn?There were many verses in the OT that were Messianic but were not necessarily seen as such at the time. In any case, one cannot take a verse meant initially for an earthly king and then apply it to the King of kings and automatically assume then that “O God” in the OT converts to the NT with a whole new set of implications of “Godhood”. That would be special pleading. Since the OT version was to an earthly king, what does Nathaniel mean here?
Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”
Not how the context of King of Israel goes hand-in-hand with Son of God. And the earthly king in Psalm 45 is called “O God”.
Quote If God (the Father) is speaking through an angel here (and that's debatable) then that implies He is “coming quickly”. Q) Are we told elsewhere in NT scripture that the Father is “coming quickly”?
Q) Are we told elsewhere in NT scripture that Yeshua is?
Blessings
Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.“
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Can you show me where the angel sent by God stops speaking and another picks up in the above verses?
Not all that “twist” stuff again.
Jesus Is the Alpha and the Omega who is coming quickly
Jesus makes it clear that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the Last:
“'Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to your people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright morning star.'” (Revelation 22:12-16)
These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper.” (Revelation 2:18)
And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me…is eyes as a fiery flame; and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace…he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:12-18)This describes Jesus because He was the living one who became dead but then alive forever.
Conclusion
Jehovah God says he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and is the only God, and Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, so Jesus and Jehovah God are one and the same.
Look!
Jehovah Is the Alpha and the Omega
In the verses below, Jehovah God states that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)
“I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
Thus, there is only one Alpha and Omega, first and last, and it is Jehovah God. JESUS2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
When Jesus said he is the beginning and the end, it is accepted that the Father is excepted who has no beginning. Jesus is actually stating that he has a beginning.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 01 2007,07:58) Not all that “twist” stuff again.
I don't “twist”, I “list” — verses that is. And I use terms found in the Bible, not those fashioned by Greek philosphers and men.I have come to an understanding of the 3 major “Trinitarians” on here and I get ideas from their posts on the reasoning they support their view.
Is 1:18 is an amazing source of Greek knowledge and very, very patient (except a few times
). I think he believes the Trinity because he can support it both spiritually and intellectually.WJ takes a strong stance on the Trinity. I believe he feels that Yeshua must be God because of the amount of authority and power he has. And he too feels the Trinity is spiritually and scripturally valid.
You, CB, just like to list a cluster of verses like dropping a shrapnel grenade and pretend that everyone else who doesn't believe as you do is a closet Jehovah's Witness. I think you support the Trinity because you hate JWs. Beyond that, your many posts have led me to the conclusion that you do not truly understand the Trinity because you more often come off as a modalist.
Anyway…..
Quote Jesus Is the Alpha and the Omega who is coming quickly Jesus makes it clear that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the Last:
“'Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to your people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright morning star.'” (Revelation 22:12-16)
Hmmm, I think that maybe you were a JW and that is why you hate them now. No matter. But I note that you often employ a JW approach to scripture. That is, you fill in missing verses with …. Why don't we list those missing verses, shall we?Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward {is} with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”You forgot to list verses 14-15 where John breaks in. Jesus then comes in at verse 16 to close out the book of Revelation. All the verses prior to this where spoken via the angel sent by God in verse 6. I challenge you to show me where the angel sent by God stops speaking until verse 14.
Quote These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper.” (Revelation 2:18)
And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me…is eyes as a fiery flame; and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace…he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:12-18)
What do these verses show? First and last what?Quote Conclusion Jehovah God says he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and is the only God, and Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, so Jesus and Jehovah God are one and the same.
Yep, you ARE a modalist. Or at least a Oneness adherant.Look!
Quote Jehovah Is the Alpha and the Omega In the verses below, Jehovah God states that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)
“I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
Thus, there is only one Alpha and Omega, first and last, and it is Jehovah God. JESUS
Modalist. In Is 44:6, YHWH clarifies “first and last” by ending the verse with “God”. He is the first and last God.In any case, let's just play around and say Yeshua is speaking in Rev 22:13. Where does it say anywhere in scripture that YHWH (or simply God) can be the ONLY Alpha and Omega? Is the said to be exclusive to God alone? Please provide scripture to support this belief. After all, they are both Saviour. They are both Lord (not LORD as in YHWH). They are both Lord of lords.
So, tell me CB, just what is “Alpha and Omega”? How does it relate to both Yeshua and God?
Will you be a Christian: Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
or a Thomasian: “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
I follow Yeshua who told us who our God and his God is: the Father.
kejonn
I have been busy in my buisness, I own a computer buisness and have been swamped, but will be back soon.
Just thought I would mention why Jesus being the Alpha and Omega means he is God.
You say…
Quote So, tell me CB, just what is “Alpha and Omega”? How does it relate to both Yeshua and God? Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (kurios), which is, and which was, and which is to come, *the Almighty*.Who is to come? There is no NT scripture that says the Father is coming!
I think I understand you now. You aparrently have not recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Am I wrong? If I am please tell me and I will oppoligize. You see the reason this is important is that it is the Filling of the Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth that gives us “Revelation” of the scritpures.
The scribes and the Pharisees knew the scriptures but had no “Revelation” knowledge of who Jesus was.
Jesus was found to expound the scriptures to the disciples on the road to Demaus and though he showed them all things concerning himself they still did not know him. It was not untill Jesus opened the scriptures to them spiritually that they knew who Jesus was. Then they said did not our hearts burn with us. Luke 24:15-32
Luke 24:31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,How did Jesus do this?
Jesus said…
Jn 5:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.Understanding of the scriptures by itself is not enough. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth.
They were looking at the “Truth” and didnt know him.
Paul prayed that we would have the spirit of revelation in the knowledge of him.
This is my prayer for you and all on this sight!
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2007,19:21) kejonn I have been busy in my buisness, I own a computer buisness and have been swamped, but will be back soon.
Good to hear you are swamped. That means business is good! I wish you the best in your business venture.Quote Just thought I would mention why Jesus being the Alpha and Omega means he is God. You say…
Quote So, tell me CB, just what is “Alpha and Omega”? How does it relate to both Yeshua and God? Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (kurios), which is, and which was, and which is to come, *the Almighty*.Who is to come? There is no NT scripture that says the Father is coming!
I see you are using the KJV which leaves out “theos”, In the NASB, it is “kyrios theos” as it is in many other versions (GWT, ASV, BBE, Darby, ERV, WEY, NIV, WEB, RSV, NLT). “Lord God”. And don't forget the Almighty which is another word never used in relation to Yeshua. So it is without a doubt that Revelation 1:8 is God alone.And the “is to come” is not the same as “coming quickly”. It means was, is, and will always be. In other words, eternal.
How do we know it is God speaking here (besides saying “Lord God”)? Well, the first verse of the book!
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Also look at the context in v4-5
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–As you can see, in v4 the one who is “Him who is and who was and who is to come” is separate from Yeshua because we see the conjunction “and” in the start of v5. So again, this phrase is repeated in 1:8. So yes, Rev 1:8 is God, not Yeshua.
Just curious, but looking back at verse 1, why do we see only “God” being used here, and not “God the Father”? If Yeshua is God, why would he need to get the Revelation from himself? You can say it is implied but that's a cop-out. It just says “God” with out Father attached which is a very strong statement for the separation of God and Yeshua. Otherwise, oit could be the Holy Spirit who told Yeshua since he is another person of God, right?
See where the Trinity starts to confuse the issue?
Also, here we see a scene in heaven. No more earthly weakness for Yeshua, so that excuse is off the table. What then do you make of this verse?
Rev 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
In Heaven, Yeshua still has a God. How can a God have a God if he is a person of that God? That would not lead to a person of God, but a God. Again, we see that the Trinity confuses the issue, and we're only a few verses into Revelation!
Quote I think I understand you now. You aparrently have not recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Am I wrong? If I am please tell me and I will oppoligize. You see the reason this is important is that it is the Filling of the Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth that gives us “Revelation” of the scritpures.
Hehe, I'm not a strong proponent of tongues. I have seen this so abused in churches today that I wonder if God truly has stripped this from mankind. Well, I don't believe He has, but I have been around those who said they speak in tongues, but when I ask them if there was an interpreter around when they did they looked at me odd. Can't have one without the other. Else, where is the edification?Anyway, yes, I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. But let me ask you, was every case of conversion (or even many) in the NT accompanied by an evidence of speaking in tongues? No. This is another instance where people run with a few verses and try to hold a “spiritual advantage” over “lesser Christians”.
1Cr 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
1Cr 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?In any case, your response here also tells me more about you and why you are a strong Trinitarian: you are a big believer in the philosophy that the Bible only has to say something once for it to be true in all cases. But the Bible must be read in its context, and not in isolation of passages. You beleive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost must be accompanied by tongues because you read it in one or two places. But you must have not read that this was not always the case.
Finally, as for tongues, and if you get your belief Acts 2:3-4, you must understand that they were speaking in the languages of their listeners so that those hearing would understand. That is what is meant by having an interpreter. Why use would speaking in a strange tongue be if no one could understand you?
GWT: All the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.
BBE: And they were all full of the Holy Spirit, and were talking in different languages, as the Spirit gave them power
WEY: They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in foreign languages according as the Spirit gave them words to utter.
WBS: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
WEB: They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.Quote The scribes and the Pharisees knew the scriptures but had no “Revelation” knowledge of who Jesus was. Jesus was found to expound the scriptures to the disciples on the road to Demaus and though he showed them all things concerning himself they still did not know him. It was not untill Jesus opened the scriptures to them spiritually that they knew who Jesus was. Then they said did not our hearts burn with us. Luke 24:15-32
Luke 24:31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,How did Je
sus do this?Jesus said…
Jn 5:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.Understanding of the scriptures by itself is not enough. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth.
They were looking at the “Truth” and didnt know him.
Paul prayed that we would have the spirit of revelation in the knowledge of him.
This is my prayer for you and all on this sight!
Blessings!
I will echo a hearty AMEN to this last part!Some time back, and it was around the time I sent you the PM on Ignatius, I realized that I had been a little sarcastic to you in my posts. For that I apologize. I have prayed about this and God has been helping me be more patient and kind in my responses. I will admit that sarcasm has always been one of my bad traits and it is part of my human frailty. But be assured that I'm so much better than I used to be!
So if you see that creep back in, send me a virtual rebuke. Iron sharpens iron.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 02 2007,00:38) Hey, IS, good to “hear” from you! Hope you have also been up to nothing but good.
he he…can't say that I have….I'd be doing well to do “nothing but good” for 20 straight minutes.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 01 2007,16:34) There were many verses in the OT that were Messianic but were not necessarily seen as such at the time. In any case, one cannot take a verse meant initially for an earthly king and then apply it to the King of kings and automatically assume then that “O God” in the OT converts to the NT with a whole new set of implications of “Godhood”. That would be special pleading. Since the OT version was to an earthly king, what does Nathaniel mean here?
I don't think it is special pleading. You must admit there are numerous instances in the OT where one one subject is in view in a passage and then the language suddenly changes up and the text goes well beyond what could be applicable to the original subject. Ezekiel 28:12-19 is a noteworthy example, it begins by dealing with the King of Tyre (v 12) but very quickly there is a shift in emphasis and detailed information is given that could not possibly be describing a literal earthly king (in garden of Eden, annointed cherub who covers…) and most scholars agree that the section from vs 13-19 is speaking of Satan, his fall. Psalm 22 is another, ostensibly this is the Psalmist's personal thoughts being recorded but you must agree that it's unmistakably a messianic prophecy. In 2 Samuel 7:14 we have a senario where one half of the verse is messianic (quoted in Hebrews 1:5) while the other half is most assuredly not applicable to Yeshua (“when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod”…). In the same way I see no reason why Psalms 45:6 could not be written specifically of Yeshua and was never intended to describe an earthly king. That's why the writer of Hebrews quoted it, applying it to Yeshua in Hebrews 1:8. Why else would he do such a thing?Quote Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.“
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Can you show me where the angel sent by God stops speaking and another picks up in the above verses?
KJ, first observation – you didn't answer my questions…I will take that as an admission from you that yes, scripture does indeed affirm that Yeshua is coming quickly but does not say this about the Father.Second observation – you've presumed that the “God of the spirits of the prophets” in verse 6 is describing the Father, without substantiating that assertion. In verse 16 of that chapter we see that Yeshua sends the angel, are two angels sent? I don't believe so. Also concerning verse 13, can I ask you this KJ – given that YHWH used the same language in Isa 44:6, is the self-ascribed appelative “first and the last” in this verse a title of diety?….and if so why is Yeshua's usage in Rev 1:17 and 2:9 not also this? Without importing a presuppostition into the texts, precisely how are they different?
Blessings
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 02 2007,06:47) When Jesus said he is the beginning and the end, it is accepted that the Father is excepted who has no beginning. Jesus is actually stating that he has a beginning.
What? Are you saying here that what Yeshua said He was the “first and last” he was impling that He had a beginning? On that basis you would have to accept that Isa 44:6 teaches that YHWH had one too….Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 02 2007,00:38) Can you show me where the angel sent by God stops speaking and another picks up in the above verses?
To be honest I have read through the early verses of Revelation 22 a few times now and have seen nothing that would indicate to me that an angel is speaking to John at any time ….Revelation 22:1-7
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. 6And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. 7″And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”I don't see it….
Then you must then ignore this verses:
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.Who is “he” here? Why does “he” mention similar words as this verse
Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.“
Kejonn. You've just swallowed a camel.
Look at the following.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 02 2007,06:39) Kejonn. You've just swallowed a camel.
A camel goes down easier than an elephant. But you can carve the tusks into toothpicks to get the elephant meat out of your teeth. Do you like the taste?Quote Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
All the twist in the world is necessary to support modalism. Your claim that Jesus is Jehovah means the the Father is some background character. Its a shame the NT writers even included the Father because you have ignored Him on every occasion.Hey CB, who is “God” in this verse?
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Since Jesus is Jehovah (according to you), who is “God” in Rev 1:1? Some other being in heaven falsely using the title of “God”? Or did Jesus talk to himself to give himself his own Revelation? Hmmm, Jesus talks to himself. Your Jesus needs mental help it seems.
Quote Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
YES! That's what we have been telling you all along, there is no other God besides YHWH (Jehovah). But you solve this by saying Jesus is God, to exclusion of the Father. I'm glad I don't have to stand next to you in a thunderstorm.Quote Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
You are convinced already so showing the context would be a waste. Pearls before swine.Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 03 2007,03:39) Kejonn. You've just swallowed a camel. Look at the following.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
kejonnQuote Hey CB, who is “God” in this verse? Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
kejonn.
This is where your arian theology falls apart. The scripture identifies three Holy Beings as Jehovah God. Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. Arianism doesn't work with scripture.The following refers specifically to Jesus Jehovah God. It is so obvious.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
CB,
You forgot to answer the question. I figured you would. I've yet to see you answer a direct question yet. So again, who is “God” in Rev 1:1?
Here's another for you, and please answer it: Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?
Kejonn. There are three who are God. Whoever is “God” in Rev 1:1 does not change the fact that Jesus is the First and Last, Jehovah God.
Cult Buster
Quote kejonn.
This is where your arian theology falls apart. The scripture identifies three Holy Beings as Jehovah God. Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. Arianism doesn't work with scripture.The following refers specifically to Jesus Jehovah God. It is so obvious.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Kejonn
Quote Here's another for you, and please answer it: Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh? What does the scripture say?
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here and behold My hands; and reach your hand here and thrust it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!Kejonn. Do not be unbelieving, but believing!
CB,
Thanks for avoiding my questions especially the second one. Now I know who you are and your true purpose on this board.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
**shudder**
Get behind me, Satan.
Kejonn. Is that the best that you can do?
Rev 1:1 does not identify who “God” is.
Instead of getting irrational and abusive, you should try reasoning from the scripture. It just shows your character.
There are three who are Jehovah God. Regardless of who “God” is in Rev 1:1, The First and Last is Jesus Jehovah God. It is so obvious.
LOOK!
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
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