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Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture is collectively the Words of God though not every word written there is true as with the quotes from Christ's enemies.
God at times is directly quoted in Scripture as in the quote from Ps 2.
At other times God speaks by His Spirit in His servants as with David in Ps 110Heb1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ps 110
“1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”
When God speaks through His Spirit in men then it is written in the third person as the servant speaks as a reporter would. That is because two are involved, the servant who writes and the Spirit of God Who gives the words.
Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,04:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54) Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46) Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13),
You brought this up so I thought to address it here.
Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him.Here's why:
There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28):Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee.
The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28.
Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they, and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom. You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH.
If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses. However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH.
Reason being that:
1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text. It is he who was being petitioned.
2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH.
3) It is written, O Trinitarian: Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a.
If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.
Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout. In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said. These are the scenarios that I see.
CubesSo we disagree.
The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows.
Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10,
And the writer continues with…
“*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son.
The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12.
Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua.
Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10.
Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out.
So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve.
Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator.
Blessings WJ,a. Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2
or
b. It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.
Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture.
So there. It's not what I am saying: it's what is written.
Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight.
CubesYou dont get it do you?
This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH.
You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua.
“and” the Lord…
But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says…
Pss 102
I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth!
And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction.
Isa 45:
11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded.Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh.
And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14.
And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
Hello WJ,Where do you even begin to establish that Christ is YHWH in Ps 102? What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.
Here is Psalm 102.
Someone less than
YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH. Who is this person/petitioner?
Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us. The prayer scene in the Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind. This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations.Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself. Do you pray TO yourself? You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself.
Jesus prayed TO YHWH. Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone?Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.
Psa 102:1 PSALM 102
A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD.
HEAR my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
Psa 102:2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.Psa 102:3 For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
Psa 102:4 My heart is stricken and withered like grass,
So that I forget to eat my bread.
Psa 102:5 Because of the sound of my groaning
My bones cling to my skin.
Psa 102:6 I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am like an owl of the desert.
Psa 102:7 I lie awake,
And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop.Psa 102:8 My enemies reproach me all day long;
Those who deride me swear an oath against me.
Psa 102:9 For I have eaten ashes like bread,
And mingled my drink with weeping,
Psa 102:10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath;
For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
Psa 102:11 My days are like a shadow that lengthens,
And I wither away like grass.vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope. Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight…
(Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs);Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc. Luke 4:17f, Is 61. Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness…. I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On the contrary.
So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come.
Psa 102:12 But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
Psa 102:13 You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
Psa 102:14 For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
Psa 102:15 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psa 102:16 For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
Psa 102:17 He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.Psa 102:18 This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
Psa 102:19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
Psa 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
Psa 102:21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
Psa 102:22 When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11. Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant.
In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually.
OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him.
If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.
If not, then you have no case at all so far. Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH.
*Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture. You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.
Psa 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself).
Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren. And it does not say, YHWH suffered them.
How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died).
etc.Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc)
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written:“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2]Pardon me for the long post. I didn't want to break up Ps 102.
Will check in again when I can.One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro.
One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, Christ Jesus.
The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.
CubesContext.
Its that simple.
Believe what you want, you have no proof.
The flow of Hebrews 1:8,9,10,11,12 is is speaking of Yeshua.
The writer ascribes Pss 102 to Yeshua, who is the creator.
Pss 102, David is speaking of the creator YHWH.
Simple.
You see it your way, and in my opinion its wrong.
Unbelievers, hear the word of the Lord!
Jesus is the Lord/YHWH from heaven.
John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28, 1 Cor 15:47
Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,09:20) According to Psalm 22, a prophetic messianic Psalm concerning Yeshua:
the messiah is clearly NOT YHWH
and YHWH is NOT the messiah. Why then do the rules change w/ Psalm 102?Psalm 22
#Psa 22:1 PSALM 22
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.”#[fn1] A Psalm of David.
MY God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
#Psa 22:2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
#Psa 22:3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
#Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
#Psa 22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
#Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
#Psa 22:7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
#Psa 22:8 “He trusted#[fn2] in YHWH, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
#Psa 22:9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
#Psa 22:10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
#Psa 22:11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
#Psa 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
#Psa 22:13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
#Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
#Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
#Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced#[fn3] My hands and My feet;
#Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
#Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
#Psa 22:19 But You, O YHWH, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
#Psa 22:20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
#Psa 22:21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
#Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
#Psa 22:23 You who fear YHWH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
#Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
#Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
#Psa 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise YHWH.
Let your heart live forever!
#Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to YHWH,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.#[fn4]
#Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is YHWH‘s,
And He rules over the nations.
#Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
#Psa 22:30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
#Psa 22:31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.——
Act 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”
Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'”
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [fn8] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. …”Therefore, I agree without reservation that scripture is by no private interpretation; and that the various scriptures show that Hebrews 1:10f refers to the Father and not to Yeshua. Scripture is consistent, Messiah is Messiah and YHWH is YHWH.
YHWH's blessings upon his people in Christ Jesus. Amen.
CubesThe rules dont change but YHWH is a name for God that speaks of both the Father and Yeshua throughout the Hebrew scriptures.
Maybe this will help!
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,16:50) Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture is collectively the Words of God though not every word written there is true as with the quotes from Christ's enemies.
God at times is directly quoted in Scripture as in the quote from Ps 2.
At other times God speaks by His Spirit in His servants as with David in Ps 110Heb1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ps 110
“1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”
When God speaks through His Spirit in men then it is written in the third person as the servant speaks as a reporter would. That is because two are involved, the servant who writes and the Spirit of God Who gives the words.
We don't really need to use conjecture as to exactly who addressed whom in Psa 102:25, the writer of Hebrews saves us that trouble when he wrote:Hebrews 1:10
8But unto the Son he [The Father -v6] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:According to the writer of Hebrews the Psalm 102:25 quote was an utterance made by the Father to the Son. It's quite plain in the Hebrews text. Or are you proposing here that you have a better understanding of the OT quote than a NT writer?
Hi Is1.18,
Do you think it was a quote directly from God rather than through David?
Why do you ascribe it to David's psalm then?What difference does it make?? Clearly it is not David that is doing the addressing or being addressed in Psalm 102:25…
You agree with that, right?
Hi Is 1.18,
Ps 102
” 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
Some things are said in scripture that clearly relate to God and can also can be applied to Christ. But we should not then make the huge jump of presumption that such a dual application proves anything, such as they are the same being.
I have aligned my view with the writer of Hebrews. I think he was right when wrote, in plain language, that Psalm 102:25 was spoken by the Father to the Son. How about you? Do you think he was right? Doesn't look like it to me.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 07 2007,01:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,16:50) Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture is collectively the Words of God though not every word written there is true as with the quotes from Christ's enemies.
God at times is directly quoted in Scripture as in the quote from Ps 2.
At other times God speaks by His Spirit in His servants as with David in Ps 110Heb1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ps 110
“1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”
When God speaks through His Spirit in men then it is written in the third person as the servant speaks as a reporter would. That is because two are involved, the servant who writes and the Spirit of God Who gives the words.
We don't really need to use conjecture as to exactly who addressed whom in Psa 102:25, the writer of Hebrews saves us that trouble when he wrote:Hebrews 1:10
8But unto the Son he [The Father -v6] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:According to the writer of Hebrews the Psalm 102:25 quote was an utterance made by the Father to the Son. It's quite plain in the Hebrews text. Or are you proposing here that you have a better understanding of the OT quote than a NT writer?
Isaiha. These sons and daughters of Arius do not love truth. When they encounter Bible truths, they twist this way and squirm that way.
Instead of studying the Bible to know what is truth, they use the Bible to fight against the truth. You cannot get a straight answer from these false prophets. Instead they play word games with scripture. They fail to recognise that the Bible is the Word of God, and should approach it with awe and reverence, and not with unholy motives.
These are typical tactics used by cults such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Although these folk, some offshoots from the JW church, claim to hate the JWs, they nevertheless are the children of the Watchtower because they follow its teachings.
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Hi Is 1.18,
Yes it does matter.
The Spirit of God speaks through men for God.
Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.It is the words of God, through Moses.
Hi Is 1.18,
2Peter 3
“15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
Written by Peter[or his secretary] about Paul whose Spirit is of Christ and from God.NH,
I'm not sure how any of that changes anything. The Hebrews text is explicit. No need for inference, or conjecture….Good night.
Hi Is 1.18,
Acts 28
” 25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Actually God wrote through His Spirit in Isaiah.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Here Christ is also identified as God. And since the Father is speaking, here is more conclusive proof of a Godhead with two of its three Persons mentioned. Another stumper for these Arians.
Evidence of Their Deity.
1. The Father is Jehovah. Not even the Arians will argue this.
2. Christ is Jehovah. See John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8. Also
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(From the cult's own bible)Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Here are all the three Divine Persons of the Godhead in one verse.
Now let's confirm their deity from scripture .Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Here is Christ (the Word) identified as God. This verse states that there are at least two who are God. This confounds the Arian doctrine.
And the third Person
Jehovah the Holy Spirit
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(From the cult's own bible)Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Quote (t8 @ April 23 2007,16:20) Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20) Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
t8
Quote Hi CultB. So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Hi t8.
The Bible clearly tells us that only God participated in creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the foremost Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)
Who was this Word of God, the Creator?Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
“A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2007,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,04:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54) Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46) Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13),
You brought this up so I thought to address it here.
Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him.Here's why:
There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28):Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee.
The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28.
Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they, and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom. You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH.
If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses. However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH.
Reason being that:
1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text. It is he who was being petitioned.
2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH.
3) It is written, O Trinitarian: Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a.
If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.
Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout. In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said. These are the scenarios that I see.
CubesSo we disagree.
The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows.
Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10,
And the writer continues with…
“*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son.
The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12.
Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua.
Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10.
Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out.
So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve.
Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator.
Blessings WJ,a. Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2
or
b. It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.
Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture.
So there. It's not what I am saying: it's what is written.
Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight.
CubesYou dont get it do you?
This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH.
You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua.
“and” the Lord…
But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says…
Pss 102
I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth!
And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction.
Isa 45:
11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded.Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh.
And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14.
And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
Hello WJ,Where do you even begin to establish that C
hrist is YHWH in Ps 102? What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.Here is Psalm 102.
Someone less than YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH. Who is this person/petitioner?
Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us. The prayer scene in the Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind. This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations.Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself. Do you pray TO yourself? You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself.
Jesus prayed TO YHWH. Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone?Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.
Psa 102:1 PSALM 102
A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD.
HEAR my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
Psa 102:2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.Psa 102:3 For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
Psa 102:4 My heart is stricken and withered like grass,
So that I forget to eat my bread.
Psa 102:5 Because of the sound of my groaning
My bones cling to my skin.
Psa 102:6 I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am like an owl of the desert.
Psa 102:7 I lie awake,
And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop.Psa 102:8 My enemies reproach me all day long;
Those who deride me swear an oath against me.
Psa 102:9 For I have eaten ashes like bread,
And mingled my drink with weeping,
Psa 102:10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath;
For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
Psa 102:11 My days are like a shadow that lengthens,
And I wither away like grass.vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope. Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight…
(Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs);Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc. Luke 4:17f, Is 61. Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness…. I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On the contrary.
So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come.
Psa 102:12 But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
Psa 102:13 You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
Psa 102:14 For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
Psa 102:15 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psa 102:16 For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
Psa 102:17 He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.Psa 102:18 This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
Psa 102:19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
Psa 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
Psa 102:21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
Psa 102:22 When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11. Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant.
In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually.
OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him.
If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.
If not, then you have no case at all so far. Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH.
*Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture. You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.
Psa 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself).
Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren. And it does not say, YHWH suffered them.
How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died).
etc.Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc)
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written:“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2]Pardon me for the long post. I didn't want to break up Ps 102.
Will check in again when I can.One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro.
One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, C
hrist Jesus.
The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.
CubesContext.
Its that simple.
Believe what you want, you have no proof.
The flow of Hebrews 1:8,9,10,11,12 is is speaking of Yeshua.
The writer ascribes Pss 102 to Yeshua, who is the creator.
Pss 102, David is speaking of the creator YHWH.
Simple.
You see it your way, and in my opinion its wrong.
Unbelievers, hear the word of the Lord!
Jesus is the Lord/YHWH from heaven.
John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28, 1 Cor 15:47
Thanks WJ & CB,I first considered Heb 1:10-13 as applying to Jesus sometime in 2005 I think, when Is presented it to me…I read Ps 102 and the leap I could make was that 102:24b MUST be YHWH speaking reassuringly to his Son who in the same verse called on his GOD, saying, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days…” Everytime I would go over those same verses, they would slow me down like a yellow cautionary light or a speed bump when driving, I'd consider it and move along regarding it to seem to say Christ laid the foundations of the world. But again, it conflicted with much and didn't ADD up. I just accepted it as a portion of scripture being difficult to understand either due to translation, or being “sealed.” What was even more disturbing is that it did not harmonize or synch with the rest of Hebrews concerning Messiah, whom Hebrews portrays as the son of God, Lamb of God, and Highpriest of God, and NOT as God. But as I said, I was willing to go along for the bumpy ride having nothing to add given my own limited understanding, which I declared in my first response here I believe.
The problem was that, using Ps 102 and Heb 1:10f was as navigating in a tunnel, trying to find one's bearings without benefit of any landmarks, suspending the landmarks that have been fully established beforehand: that YHWH created the worlds and that he is the GOD and Father of Christ so that Christ is NOT YHWH, his own Father.
Reinventing the wheel, this so-called, three-personed YHWH group!
BIG MISTAKE.Scripture interprets scripture. PERIOD.
All scripture points to YHWH as creator of the world.
All scripture points to the fact that CHRIST, the son of GOD, is NOT YHWH.Quit dealing in the tunnel vision and move into the open space of scripture, consider the ancient landmarks and navigational marks that GOD sovereignly placed in his scripture, and believe.
It is true therefore, in Heb 1:10 that “You, o Lord…” refers to “You, O YHWH…” and not to, You O Christ since YHWH did NOT speak in that Psalm.
The Writer of Hebrews was not and could not have said otherwise unless by “PRIVATE interpretation,” which we already know is not permitted to anyone. We ought to be able to follow their footsteps and line of reasoning and see where they draw their understanding and conclusions…. and thanks be to GOD, the trail lives on! We know that GOD is no respector of persons, just as Peter said in Acts 10 or 11 regarding the Holy Spirit's baptism of the lowly gentiles. He is faithful to all who seek him w/ the whole heart and deals truthfully with us so we can be confident.This is scripture's call. It is consistent with all scripture thus far and the speed bump is gone and harmony is restored on Heb 1, at least for me.
Brothers and sisters, scripture CANNOT be Broken. If Christ be YHWH in Psalm 102:24, then stick w/ Christ through the rest of the Psalms wherever YHWH is mentioned and see how quickly and thoroughly scripture is violated.
Aaah, but I almost overlook the old Trinity patch: The one that says they are all YHWH. And yet, its defenders cannot tell me whether YHWH then died, IF their TRINITY is indeed one, when it is written that YHWH is ONE and Immortal.
OR
Whether YHWH was born by Mary, IF their Trinity is indeed one YHWH, when it is written YHWH GOD is NOT a man!
You who have ears to hear, quickly get off board and come to the safety of the GOD who is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus. The Trinity vessel is sunk but GOD understanding our predicament, has been merciful and gives you time to get off from the false belief that GOD is other than he says he is. Acts 17.
A good post Cubes.
Well thought out and full of honesty and truth.
Thanks for your input, it is a blessing.
Quote Thanks WJ & CB, I first considered Heb 1:10-13 as applying to Jesus sometime in 2005 I think, when Is presented it to me…I read Ps 102 and the leap I could make was that 102:24b MUST be YHWH speaking reassuringly to his Son who in the same verse called on his GOD, saying, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days…” Everytime I would go over those same verses, they would slow me down like a yellow cautionary light or a speed bump when driving, I'd consider it and move along regarding it to seem to say Christ laid the foundations of the world. But again, it conflicted with much and didn't ADD up. I just accepted it as a portion of scripture being difficult to understand either due to translation, or being “sealed.” What was even more disturbing is that it did not harmonize or synch with the rest of Hebrews concerning Messiah, whom Hebrews portrays as the son of God, Lamb of God, and Highpriest of God, and NOT as God. But as I said, I was willing to go along for the bumpy ride having nothing to add given my own limited understanding, which I declared in my first response here I believe.
CubesI am sorry you were swayed in the direction of the Arains. The truth shines brightly that the Lord Jesus the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God was/is God in the flesh, the Lord from heaven.
BTW. What is your take on John 1:1 and Jn 20:28.
Blessings.
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