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Hi,
The Spirit of Christ, given as God's Spirit to Christ, enlivens and empowers the body of Christ.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,11:26) Hi,
The Spirit of Christ, given as God's Spirit to Christ, enlivens and empowers the body of Christ.
When you win Christ what have you won the vessel or what's IN the vessel?Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father; for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.
The Comforter~the Holy Spirit~ is sent in Jesus' name. The same Spirit that Jesus had while on earth we have because of Jesus. When Jesus was rejoicing in the Spirit who did He direct His words too?
When we win Christ we win the right to become children of God just as HE is.
Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,11:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,11:17) Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,11:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,11:08) Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,10:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,10:48) Phil 3:
7 But what things were gain to me, *those I counted loss for Christ*.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the *knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord*: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, *that I may win Christ*,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of *God in Christ Jesus*.
The Prize is Christ!
The High calliing is to win Christ!
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of *God in Christ Jesus*.What is the high calling? God IN Christ. Not God Christ.
**that I may win Christ*,*
And what is in Christ?14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of *God in Christ Jesus*.
*those I counted loss for Christ*.*I count all things but loss for the excellency of the*knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord*
*that I may win Christ*
When you win Christ what have you won the vessel or what's IN the vessel?
When you win Christ you win Christ and everything that he is, which is God.If you say you win the Father who is in the vessel of Christ, then you are not winning Christ are you?
Hi K,
We are reborn into Christ and clothed in Christ.
We follow Christ.
We are filled with the Spirit of God as he was.
We have fellowship in that Spirit of truth with the Father and the Son.I am a child of GOD not a child of Jesus. Jesus had the Father. The Father is NOT Jesus.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.We are Jesus' brethren not His children!
Isn't that what scriptures say?
If we go on believing that we are not AS Jesus being His brethren then how are we to do the things of the Father AS He did?
We are the children of the most HIGH GOD! Jesus was the first child of the most HIGH GOD. Are we to take lightly what and who we are?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,11:50) Hi K,
In him, by the same Spirit.
It is because of Jesus that we are children and His brethren.
Jesus has the Spirit we His brethren have the same Spirit.The scriptures say that the fruits of His brethren will raise the dead!!!!!
Why has this not happened in our day???Could it be that Satan has deceived everyone into believing that we are NOTHING! Jesus is our brother in Jehovah! He died that we would have victory over death and Satan.
Jesus is NOT OUR FATHER. But our brethren just as the scriptures say we are! The sooner “Christians” start believing that the sooner we will be doing our Father's work.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 24 2007,13:10) Hi t8,
Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HASANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?This verse comes from a chapter in Hebrews where the writer’s obvious premise was to demonstrate the absolute supremacy of the Son to his Jewish readers. It’s an apologetic work where the Hebrew OT texts are heavily drawn upon. This NT writer, like others, appeared to have no hesitancy at all applying to Yeshua OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH. The OT quotations undoubtedly would have shocked the monotheistic Jews to the core, verses 10-12 especially so. It really is a christological tour de force, which reaches its climax in verses 8-12. It’s interesting to annotate the writer’s conveyances leading up to and immediately following verse 10. Here is a quick summary:
- The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
- He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
- He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
- He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
- The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
- He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
- He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
- Is said to be immutable [an sole attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)
….and in amongst all these, what must have been startling affirmations (to the intended readers), we read this:
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25 which was, of course, written about the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the Psalm unmistakably bears out:
Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son. The Hebrew's writer affirms that it was the Father Himself Who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the Universe! So here we have a clear elucidation of the Son’s exact role in the creation. To me this shows that the descriptive language in the OT dealing with YHWH’s act of Creation is, in the mind of the author, perfectly APPLICABLE TO the Logos.
Q) In what sense was Yeshua the Creator of the Heavens and Earth?
A) In the sense that was attributed to YHWH in Psalms 102:25!
Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.
In anticipation of this objection (which I'll paraphrase):
‘he was ascribed an attribute of YHWH, and therefore a passage outlining that attribute, on account of his role as agent’
…I answer:-
Would this not be a grossly misleading and irresponsible thing for the writer to do? He was no doubt schooled up on the laws governing blasphemy, and applying a verse that spoke of YHWH to a lesser being would certainly cross that line. Lesser beings are to be strongly segregated from the One true God, and no sound-thinking and scripturally-literate NT writer would, in writing an apologetic work about a lesser being, submit an OT verse that (even) ostensibly supports Him being YHWH. Unless of course He was YHWH, then it would be quite understandable. I would also say that IF the law of agency was being invoked here, and the verse simply shows that the Son is credited for having acted in the role of YHWH, then we should have other examples of this occurring with characters other than Yeshua. But can we find one t8? Who else in the Bible is ascribed an OT “YHWH” verse as a function of their agency? Maybe you can show me one…..
So, to legitimately extend this objection you will need to explain the writer’s rationale in applying this verse to Yeshua, even though He would have known He would be overtly misleading His Jewish readers about the identity of Yeshua and YHWH, and why he would risk contravening the laws governing blasphemy. You will also need to produce evidence showing that personages other than Yeshua, who likewise acted in the role of ‘agent’, have also ascribed to them passages from the OT that exclusively reference YHWH. Otherwise you are using a ‘law by exception’ as the very foundation of your refutation.
Just to briefly background the scriptural association between Yeshua and Creation, the fact that the pre-incarnate Logos was involved, in some capacity, in the creation of “all things” is a well established biblical precept. John 1:3, 10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Co
lossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 clearly bear this out. For example, in John 1:3 we read:John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.The statement “All things were made by him” is an astonishingly high statement to make of the Logos. And just to underscore this sentiment there is a exclusionist reiteration in the second part of the verse. There was nothing in the created order that was not made through Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”
Paul concurs, writing an even more emphatic statement:
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himThe language here is unambiguous, according to Paul the Logos created all things, this is an unqualified statement that details precisely what the things were:- “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. Moreover, they were made For Him (Yeshua). Here’s something interesting though, Proverbs 16:4 says that YHWH did it for Himself:
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.If the NT reveals that Christ did it for Himself and the OT reveals that YHWH did it for Himself then, so that basis alone, the logical conclusion is that Yeshua IS Creator YHWH, or else we have a blatant contradiction. And here’s another to consider, in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH declares that He did it “alone”. Job reiterated this in Job 9:8. Does the language in these passages leave any room for the possibility of two independent beings creating “all things”? I don’t think it does. It’s yet another logical dilemma for those that propose that Yeshua is not YHWH, but a lesser being.
At this point I anticipate you will likely be making this objection, which I’ll also paraphrase:
'The word “dia” is rightly rendered ‘through’, and this word infers that the Logos was not the first cause of Creation but an agent that His father used to bring it into existence (but the Father is the ultimate power behind it).'
This rationale, of course, relegates the Logos to the status of a puppet, used in an instrumental way to achieve the creation. If this were true, and “dia” does connote that, then Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 challenge this dogma. The same language used in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is also used of “God” in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10.
Romans 11:32-35
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.cf.
Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.So to be consistent, you must also accept that “God” in the above two scriptures is not credited for doing the aforementioned things in the active and primary senses (i.e. He was not the ‘efficient cause’), but was rather an intermediary between the real first cause and the recipient, which is clearly ludicrous. So, given this, if this language in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 is applicable to “God”, and still denotes that He is the ‘primary cause’ then on what grounds can you apply a different rule to Yeshua when “dia” is used in reference to Him? You can’t have it both ways.
Anyway, moving on. So we have clear scriptural witness attesting, at the very least, to Yeshua’s involvement in bringing about creation, but Hebrews 1:10 elucidates the capacity to which He was involved – according to this verse, and in the opinion of the Father, He was the executor of Creation in the exact sense that YHWH was described as being in Psalms 102:25, “His hands” laid the foundation of the Earth……what would His Jewish readers have made of this? Certainly the writer's conclusion that Yeshua was YHWH is difficult to escape, especially so when all the data in Hebrews Chapter 1 is considered. Verses 10-12 would have left them with no doubt at all.
Okay now for the “fish hook” I alluded to in the beginning of this post.
Hebrews 1:10
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;Please note the highlighted word. Remembering that the texts from vs 5-12 are, according to the writer of Hebrews, attestations made by the Father to the Son (“But of the Son He says” – vs 8), it’s evident that the Father actually addressed the Son as “Lord.” The Greek word “kurios” is used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. That’s well known. But also, when used in the NT as an honorific (“lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the addresser. The slave addresses his mater as “lord”, not the other way around. This is principal is exceptionless.
So there are two possible scenarios here:
1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience, or inferiority in rank, to Yeshua. Or,
2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.
I assert that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses where the Father is spoken as being “greater than” (i.e. superior in office) to the Son. So that leave only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of verses 10-12, which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH…..
In summary, Hebrews 1:10 is a verse that cannot be overlooked by you t8. According to the writer of Hebrews this quotation from Psalms 102:25, was uttered by the Father to the Son. Yet when we examine the Psalm carefully it's evident that it speaks exclusively of YHWH. Would a NT writer apply a verse that manifestly references YHWH to the Son if He were not YHWH? I say no. It's inconceivable that he would do this, as it would grossly mislead the recipients of his letter about the identity of the Son, if He were not YHWH. Nor would he risk the consequence of overt blasphemy by audaciously elevating a lesser being to the status of Most High God, if He were not that God. And let's bear in mind the context that this verse was placed into:
- The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
- He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
- He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
- He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
- The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
- He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
- He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
- Is said to be immutable [an attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)
The writer in writing Hebrews Chapter 1 had a single overarching
motive, to apologetically convey the absolute supremacy of the Son, Yeshua, to his Jewish readers. The chapter is a tour de force that climaxes in the declarations in vss 10-12 that establish Yeshua as THE immutable Creator of the Universe. So this verse has not been ripped out of context, it perfectly fits within the context of the Chapter in perfect harmony.Okay, now for my questions relating to Hebrews 1:10.
Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?
Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.
Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]
I look forward to reading your answers…..
Blessings t8
Is 1:18Amen!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54) Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46) Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13),
You brought this up so I thought to address it here.
Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him.Here's why:
There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28):Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee.
The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28.
Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they, and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom. You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH.
If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses. However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH.
Reason being that:
1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text. It is he who was being petitioned.
2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH.
3) It is written, O Trinitarian: Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a.
If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.
Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout. In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said. These are the scenarios that I see.
CubesSo we disagree.
The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows.
Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10,
And the writer continues with…
“*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son.
The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12.
Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua.
Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10.
Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out.
So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve.
Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator.
Blessings WJ,a. Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2
or
b. It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.
Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture.
So there. It's not what I am saying: it's what is written.
Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight.
CubesYou dont get it do you?
This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH.
You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua.
“and” the Lord…
But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says…
Pss 102
I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth!
And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction.
Isa 45:
11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded.Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh.
And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14.
And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
Hello WJ,Where do you even begin to establish that Christ is YHWH in Ps 102? What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.
Here is Psalm 102.
Someone less than YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH. Who is this person/petitioner?
Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us. The prayer scene in th
e Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind. This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations.Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself. Do you pray TO yourself? You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself.
Jesus prayed TO YHWH. Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone?Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.
Psa 102:1 PSALM 102
A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD.
HEAR my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
Psa 102:2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.Psa 102:3 For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
Psa 102:4 My heart is stricken and withered like grass,
So that I forget to eat my bread.
Psa 102:5 Because of the sound of my groaning
My bones cling to my skin.
Psa 102:6 I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am like an owl of the desert.
Psa 102:7 I lie awake,
And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop.Psa 102:8 My enemies reproach me all day long;
Those who deride me swear an oath against me.
Psa 102:9 For I have eaten ashes like bread,
And mingled my drink with weeping,
Psa 102:10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath;
For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
Psa 102:11 My days are like a shadow that lengthens,
And I wither away like grass.vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope. Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight…
(Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs);Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc. Luke 4:17f, Is 61. Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness…. I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On the contrary.
So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come.
Psa 102:12 But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
Psa 102:13 You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
Psa 102:14 For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
Psa 102:15 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psa 102:16 For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
Psa 102:17 He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.Psa 102:18 This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
Psa 102:19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
Psa 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
Psa 102:21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
Psa 102:22 When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.
vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11. Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant.
In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually.
OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him.
If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.
If not, then you have no case at all so far. Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH.
*Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture. You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.
Psa 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself).
Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren. And it does not say, YHWH suffered them.
How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died).
etc.Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc)
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written:“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2]Pardon me for the long post. I didn't want to break up Ps 102.
Will check in again when I can.One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro.
One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, Christ Jesus.
The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.
According to Psalm 22, a prophetic messianic Psalm concerning Yeshua:
the messiah is clearly NOT YHWH
and YHWH is NOT the messiah. Why then do the rules change w/ Psalm 102?Psalm 22
#Psa 22:1 PSALM 22
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.”#[fn1] A Psalm of David.
MY God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
#Psa 22:2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
#Psa 22:3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
#Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
#Psa 22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
#Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
#Psa 22:7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
#Psa 22:8 “He trusted#[fn2] in YHWH, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
#Psa 22:9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
#Psa 22:10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
#Psa 22:11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
#Psa 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
#Psa 22:13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
#Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
#Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
#Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced#[fn3] My hands and My feet;
#Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
#Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
#Psa 22:19 But You, O YHWH, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
#Psa 22:20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
#Psa 22:21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
#Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
#Psa 22:23 You who fear YHWH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
#Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
#Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
#Psa 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise YHWH.
Let your heart live forever!
#Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to YHWH,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.#[fn4]
#Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is YHWH‘s,
And He rules over the nations.
#Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
#Psa 22:30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
#Psa 22:31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.——
Act 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”
Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'”
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [fn8] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. …”Therefore, I agree without reservation that scripture is by no private interpretation; and that the various scriptures show that Hebrews 1:10f refers to the Father and not to Yeshua. Scripture is consistent, Messiah is Messiah and YHWH is YHWH.
YHWH's blessings upon his people in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 07 2007,15:51) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,22:57) To ANY who are interested … Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. Quote (Greg S. Deuble @ They never told me THIS in church!, p.236-7) It has been argued that since these words quoted from Psalm 102 where their original reference to Jehovah are now applied to the risen Son, then Jesus must be Jehovah. If we are not careful to follow the original intention of the writer it would be easy to see how these verses can be misread to mean that the Lord Messiah is the one who originally created the universe. But if we turn back to Psalm 102, the author's reference point, we will quickly understand that the Psalmist is also speaking about the coming Messianic age of the Kingdom which is to be centred in Jerusalem. Thus is a prophecy that “will be written for the generation to come; that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD”
(Ps. 102.18).
The Psalmist anticipates the day when Jerusalem will be restored under Messiah. … This Messianic agent through whom GOD will speak will be the one “to establish [literally, 'plant'] the heavens; to found the earth, and to say to Zion, You are my people ” (Is. 51.16).
The Word Bible Commentary says of these verses:This makes no sense if it refers to the original (Genesis) creation … In other instances God acts alone using no agent (Isa. 44.24). Here the one he had hidden in his hand is his agent. Heavens and land refers metaphorically to the totality of the order in Palestine. Heaven means the broader overarching structure of the empire, while “land” is the political order in Palestine itself.
For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
My 2 cents worth …Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 06 2007,13:01) My 2 cents worth …
I think you've overvalued it.Sorry, couldn't resist that one….
Hi Is 1.18.
Hebrews 1:10
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;In context
' 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
So your logic is that either Christ is greater than God or that Christ is speaking to himself.
So much for the use of logic.Can you please show me how you arrived at those conclusions? I have no idea how you have done so.
NH, you can't seem to write a post these days without being, to one degree or another, antagonistic. As a moderator you should be steering the discussion away from that. Something to think about?….
HI Is 1.18,
Would you be a moderator of moderators?
God speaks through scripture by His Spirit.
Quoting such a verse does not prove a relationship.
Calling Christ God does not make Christ the God of God
any more that calling him LORD makes him Lord of the Lord God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,15:22) HI Is 1.18,
Would you be a moderator of moderators?
Everyone's accountable.Quote God speaks through scripture by His Spirit.
The relevance of this statement to Hebrews 1:10 is unclear to me, please explain.Quote Quoting such a verse does not prove a relationship.
The relevance of this statement to Hebrews 1:10 is unclear to me, please explain.Quote Calling Christ God does not make Christ the God of God any more that calling him LORD makes him Lord of the Lord God.
The relevance of this statement to Hebrews 1:10 is unclear to me, please explain.
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