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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,21:58) See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.
That part I have bolded is either ignorance or a lie. We teach that he is a distinct being from that of God. He obviously has his own body, soul, identity as it is written.It is in fact the Trinity doctrine that you teach that says that Jesus has no essence or substance of his own. That doctrine says that the son is only one person that SHARES an essence with a group of persons. So it doesn't teach that he has his OWN essence. So your accusation comes right back to you. Funny how that works isn't it. You point the finger and then your own finger points to you.
Regarding the first part of your quote have you not read:
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.Hi W,
You say
“See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.”You divert from Athanasius here.
He says
“30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.”So are you now saying Athanasius was wrong and Jesus had substance of his own?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2007,09:29) Hi W,
You say
“See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.”You divert from Athanasius here.
He says
“30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.”So are you now saying Athanasius was wrong and Jesus had substance of his own?
NH and t8Both of you have it wrong.
My point is exactly as I stated.
Can you see how that when you resort to Jesus is just a vessel and that when you imply that the Father does it all through him as if to say he is just a funnel and he dosnt do anything then you are missing the truth of who Yeshua is?
You say Yeshua is not the creator, right?
You say that only the Father is the creator who created all things through him right?
Since as CB has so beautifully pointed out the scriptures say that only God created all things by himself, then that means that if Yeshua had no part in the creation but that the Father just did everything through him as you say, then that would make him just a funnel or vessel through which God worked through.
Which still violates God being the only being involved in the creation.
Because if he is not the very essence and substance of God by which all things are created and by which all things consist and by which all things are upheld by that Word of “Yeshua's” power, then he would have to be a funnel or a vessel or a seperate god with a seperate essence and substance by which God made all things through.
So you have a problem t8 and NH.
1. If Yeshua is the exact representation of Gods substance and all things were made by him, and only one God made all things, then Yeshua is the creator and true God.
or
2. Yeshua is a god a being by himself with a different substance than God and all things were made through him meaning God had another agent involved in the creation but only God created everything through him making him just a funnel or a vessel which scriptures are totally against.
t8
You say…
Quote
Regarding the first part of your quote have you not read:John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; *he can do* only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.The first part of the verse does not negate the second part t8…
*because whatever the Father does the Son also does*
Again the son does nothing without the Father, and the Father does nothing without the Son.
Because they are one God.
Quote (t8 @ April 19 2007,09:17) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2007,14:07) t8 was making all those excuses about the lack of time he had in doing his research, when less than a week beforehand I told him he could “take all the time he needed” to submit his rebuttal:
Maybe you didn't read WorshippingJesus post(s) but he was throwing accusations at me regarding this time issue. I was simply pointing out the truth that some things in life have a greater priority than debating here.But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
t8Do me a favour and show me where I was…
Quote “throwing accusations at you regarding this time issue”. And especially where I…
Quote
But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
Quote (t8 @ April 19 2007,09:17) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2007,14:07) t8 was making all those excuses about the lack of time he had in doing his research, when less than a week beforehand I told him he could “take all the time he needed” to submit his rebuttal:
Maybe you didn't read WorshippingJesus post(s) but he was throwing accusations at me regarding this time issue. I was simply pointing out the truth that some things in life have a greater priority than debating here.But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
t8I descided to see if what you say is true..
Posted: April 02 2007,16:44 Page 24 t8s proof text # 1 I said…
Quote You agreed to a three day time period. You posted and Is 1:18 replied.
Then he posted and about 5 days later you say…
Is 1:18 is willing to give you extra time to reply and then you come back to your proof text rebutting the the rebuttal totally ignoring his proof text and diverting attention back to yours.
I was under the impression as well as others I think, that you were to rebutt Isaiahs proof text. That was what the extended time was about!
Was'nt it?
Posted: April 03 2007,03:14 page 27 t8s proof text #1 I said…
Quote t8 I dont care about the three days and Im not saying that you have sinned.
What bothers me is that you took the time and then went back to your proof text, totally ignoring his.
Can you see how I would get upset?
Posted: April 07 2007,05:00 page 29 t8s proof text #1 I said…
Quote
T8, no one even cares about the 3 days. Isaiah was willing to give you all the time you needed.
Posted: April 08 2007,04:21 page 32 t8s proof text #1 I said…Quote
In fact here is the last thing I said to you on this…Here is my last word to you on this.
I wish you the very best in your walk with God and pray that God will bless you and yours abundantly with his truth and Love.
I sincerely pray that everyone on this board will see and know more truth including my self.
Someday we will all come together in unity even if its on the other side.
Does this match what you say…
Quote Maybe you didn't read WorshippingJesus post(s) but he was throwing accusations at me regarding this time issue. I was simply pointing out the truth that some things in life have a greater priority than debating here. But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
Not true t8 and you know it.
t8
Quote Regarding the first part of your quote have you not read: John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
This is the truth t8 and others are dancing around. They focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Christ had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
]1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace
There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.
In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
]Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.
. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.
There has on this forum been much twisting of scripture regarding Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.
]Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God
The Pharasee understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.
Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharasees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.
It seems that the Pharisees had better understanding of Jesus' words than the JWs and other Arians on this forum.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”. However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man.
The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.
Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Hi CB,
You say
“When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God.”OK so in your opinion God came
” He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power.”
Whoa nellie.
You just said he is God.
Now he is dependant on himself?
Or is not God after all?
Or perhaps the Son of God?“This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.”
Which God do you mean now?
Nick.
Your Arian mindset refuses to acknowlege that there are Three.
Jehovah the Father
Christ Jehovah
Jehovah the Holy Spirit.Instead of playing word games read what the Bible says.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2007,06:15) You say that only the Father is the creator who created all things through him right? Since as CB has so beautifully pointed out the scriptures say that only God created all things by himself, then that means that if Yeshua had no part in the creation but that the Father just did everything through him as you say, then that would make him just a funnel or vessel through which God worked through.
WorshippingJesus and CultB.Scripture says that God created all things through Christ. I only repeat it.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So it is safe to conclude that there was no other God that created everything. We can also assume from that, that no other God was involved in creating the cosmos through Christ.
It's quite simple. You either believe scripture or not. No amount of philosophy or speculation can change truth. You either accept it or reject it. There are no other options.
Quote (t8 @ April 19 2007,16:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2007,06:15) You say that only the Father is the creator who created all things through him right? Since as CB has so beautifully pointed out the scriptures say that only God created all things by himself, then that means that if Yeshua had no part in the creation but that the Father just did everything through him as you say, then that would make him just a funnel or vessel through which God worked through.
WorshippingJesus and CultB.Scripture says that God created all things through Christ. I only repeat it.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So it is safe to conclude that there was no other God that created everything. We can also assume from that, that no other God was involved in creating the cosmos through Christ.
It's quite simple. You either believe scripture or not. No amount of philosophy or speculation can change truth. You either accept it or reject it. There are no other options.
t8Isa 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.There is nothing in this verse that says the Father made the earth through another agent. In fact it says by “Hiis hands” he stretched out the heavens.
Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.This verse says “God himself”, there is “None else”. There is no agent found here.
You do believe this is scripture dont you t8. So if we believe as you say then we have a contradiction.
What part did Jesus have t8. Was he a builder or not.
Did the writers of the New Testament mention him if they didnt believe he is the Creator. They knew the above scriptures.
Its starting to sound like the funnel thing again.
Quote (t8 @ April 19 2007,09:17) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2007,14:07) t8 was making all those excuses about the lack of time he had in doing his research, when less than a week beforehand I told him he could “take all the time he needed” to submit his rebuttal:
Maybe you didn't read WorshippingJesus post(s) but he was throwing accusations at me regarding this time issue. I was simply pointing out the truth that some things in life have a greater priority than debating here.But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
Hi t8,
I was referencing your comments in your rebuttal:Quote I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn't have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above. Quote OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I gave you all the time you wanted, that's why I wrote “feel free to take all the time you need to post you rebuttal”, so I fail to see what you were complaining about. Maybe you were just making excuses for your lack of a good explanation for the Hebrews 1:10 text.
Another thing I wanted to clear up is this:
Quote The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn't teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn't teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn't quote such a verse because it doesn't exist.
Now t8 I have told you no less than three times in the trinity thread that my objective in submitting proof texts is not to prove the veracity of the trinity doctrine, it's to challenge your henotheistic position. So now I'm telling you for the forth time. I hope you get it now.Blessings
t8
Quote WorshippingJesus and CultB. Scripture says that God created all things through Christ. I only repeat it.
t8, I also only repeat the following.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal agency within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)
Who was this Word of God, the Creator?Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
“A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Hi CB,
You say
“Christ was the principal agency within the Godhead responsible for creation.”So was he an agent for God or God?
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20) Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 22 2007,19:35) t8, I also only repeat the following. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Yes and I repeat those scriptures too.It is not the scriptures you quote but the conclusion you come to.
A triune God is your conclusion.
But the LORD GOD is one God, not a triune God.
t8
Quote Quote (Cult Buster @ April 22 2007,19:35) t8, I also only repeat the following. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Yes and I repeat those scriptures too.It is not the scriptures you quote but the conclusion you come to.
A triune God is your conclusion.
But the LORD GOD is one God, not a triune God.
Look again t8!
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Here are all the three Divine Persons of the Godhead in one verse.
Now let's confirm their deity from scripture .Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Here is Christ (the Word) identified as God. This verse states that there are at least two who are God. This confounds the Arian doctrine.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Here Christ is also identified as God. And since the Father is speaking, here is more conclusive proof of a Godhead with two of its three Persons mentioned. Another stumper for the Arian cause.
Evidence of Their Deity.
1. The Father is Jehovah. Not even the Arians will argue this.
2. Christ is Jehovah. See the above John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8. Also
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(From the Arian's own bible)2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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