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Quote Alright t8. Show us this is true – from the context of the Revelation passage. Can you also list some scriptures that give credence to your position that there is a kind of honour/worship that is appropriate for Yeshua, and this differs from the kind that only YHWH can legitimately recieve?
First off, Jesus is at God's right hand side.Then you just need to look at these scriptures:
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”God is not worhipped/honoured as the Lamb and as the son.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2007,06:47) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 21 2007,19:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2007,05:04) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,21:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
stuThen you dont think there is a human that you are a son too!
Well, I've been asked more ridiculous questions in these forums. By the logic of some here, buses, houses and watches have parents too!Stuart
stuMaybe I miss understood you!
Plz clarify your statement.
Hello worshippingjesusSorry if I have not been clear.
I don't believe in your god. Therefore, in my view, Jesus (if he existed, lets assume he did) was not the “son of god” but a standard human being.
You said “Then you dont think there is a human that you are a son too!”, which unfortunately does not make grammatical sense, but I take it to mean that logically you could conclude that I didn't have parents. This is not true, like Jesus I have a biological mother and a biological father.
I went on to quip that many on this forum have put up the argument from design by trying to make an analogy with designed objects like houses and watches. Their analogy is wrong because such designed objects do not have parents – that is they are not the products of biological reproduction and are not made by genetic blueprints which can mutate.
Have I made myself any clearer?
Stuart
Jesus is by very definition of true faith, the son of God. There are all kinds of theories out there to deny this.
One theory suggests that there is no God and therefore he cannot be the son of a non-existent being. Another theory suggests that he is God himself. This cunningly devised doctrine in reality denies that Jesus is the son of God too. They deny it not with words but in principle.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2007,15:37) Jesus is by very definition of true faith, the son of God. There are all kinds of theories out there to deny this. One theory suggests that there is no God and therefore he cannot be the son of a non-existent being. Another theory suggests that he is God himself. This cunningly devised doctrine in reality denies that Jesus is the son of God too. They deny it not with words but in principle.
The principle is that if you make an extrordinary claim you need to supply extrordinary evidence to back it up.++”Jesus is by very definition of true faith, the son of God.
This is the basis for belief in the divinity of Jesus (can I say that without being shot by the Trinity Police?).
I deny that the man Jesus (assuming his existence) was the “son” of the Judeo-Christian god, not on principle, but because it can ONLY be believed on what you call true faith – there is no other reason to think it to be true.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 25 2007,18:38) The principle is that if you make an extrordinary claim you need to supply extrordinary evidence to back it up.
No I don't.Such things are revealed to those who are ready.
Such things are greater than test tubes and experimentation.
Life is short and such things have meaning now and into the next life.You need to ask God to reveal truth to you. But you have to want it, and you have to be honest and unbiased in your approach.
Stu.
The world is a system that makes you into a worldly person and hence an enemy of God. You need to be wary of the world. When you were a child you hadn't learned the ways of the world and you would have been more open and innocent. But many love the world and love to be worldly. Such people love to attack purity and truth. They love boasting and are proud.
But once you were not like that. You were a beautiful child once.
Can you remember back then when things appeared to be more beautiful. Innocence is a great thing and not all things can be worked out by the mind of man. Somethings are revealed and they are revealed to the innocent. Such things you cannot take away, and such things that you cannot see, unless you become like a little child. Not childish, but child like.
Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.Matthew 18:1-4
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”2 He called a little child and had him stand among them.
3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2007,22:30) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 25 2007,18:38) The principle is that if you make an extrordinary claim you need to supply extrordinary evidence to back it up.
No I don't.Such things are revealed to those who are ready.
Such things are greater than test tubes and experimentation.
Life is short and such things have meaning now and into the next life.You need to ask God to reveal truth to you. But you have to want it, and you have to be honest and unbiased in your approach.
Well, if you don't back up your claims with evidence then you have no right to be taken seriously in the scientific world.This would only be an issue for you if you viewed science as the route to the best knowledge available, as I do. The vast majority of models, explanations and technologies produced by science actually work – they do what they claim. The few that don't soon disappear. The vast majority of the claims of Christianity are demonstrated not to work – the myths of the OT are demonstrated to be myths; faith healing is no better than a sugar pill, the only real measurable effect of prayer is a slight detrimental one (increased risk of mortality amongst heart surgery patients who knew they were bring prayed for), prophecy not 1% as good as those of astronomers and so on.
Revelation is no doubt a very powerful experience for the reciever but it is of personal meaning and is not useful for us collectively – even if I were to really believe with all my brain, I still could not have the same revelation as you. Our communal knowledge must be based on science – which is blind and therefore open to the truth, no matter what it is.
By the way, for people who are keen followers of the scientific world I think there are experiences equivalent to revelation – I would argue they can be more powerful than religious revelation. If you want awe, think of the astonishing fact of your atmospherically-protected existence in a universe that really is indifferent or even downright agressive to life. Consider why you might find pictures of nebulae beautiful – what bizarre byproduct of natural selection has done that?
What of love? The atheist experiences it as much as the believer. What astonishing and intricate biochemistry leads to such an experience? What about our mitochondria – our best model so far shows them to be a foreign bacterium that has discovered symbiosis in our ancestor cells long ago, yet they still carry their own DNA.You might say science destroys such beauty by analysis but it actually just ends up opening more doors of wonder. You can interpret this as the intent of your creator if you want, but there is no particular logic that necessitates a creator and tales of fiction only steal from the wonder anyway.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2007,22:41) Stu. The world is a system that makes you into a worldly person and hence an enemy of God. You need to be wary of the world. When you were a child you hadn't learned the ways of the world and you would have been more open and innocent. But many love the world and love to be worldly. Such people love to attack purity and truth. They love boasting and are proud.
But once you were not like that. You were a beautiful child once.
Can you remember back then when things appeared to be more beautiful. Innocence is a great thing and not all things can be worked out by the mind of man. Somethings are revealed and they are revealed to the innocent. Such things you cannot take away, and such things that you cannot see, unless you become like a little child. Not childish, but child like.
Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.Matthew 18:1-4
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”2 He called a little child and had him stand among them.
3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Doesn't Corinthians warn of the need to dispose of the things of childhood? It is almost anti-theistic if you follow the hypothesis that religious belief is fundamentally an adopt-a-replacement-parent scheme for adults.You would, I presume disagree that born-again christians are trapped in their own self-imposed second childhoods.
The great pianist Bill Evans said that a source of his creativity was to keep a child-like mind. Of course he moulded that creativity with a very well-developed and highly attuned and talented adult brain.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.'
1Jn 4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
You had the right of it! Now, you can feel better knowing you have the advanced adult brain and that we Christians prefer to be little children. Now run along so we can play our games.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 25 2007,23:22) Doesn't Corinthians warn of the need to dispose of the things of childhood? It is almost anti-theistic if you follow the hypothesis that religious belief is fundamentally an adopt-a-replacement-parent scheme for adults.
To Stu.Basically it teaches that we are to be childlike, but not childish.
Adults of course have had time to learn and leave their childish ways, but children have some amazing qualities, such as innocence. Often older children/young adults think that they need to lose these qualities as proof that they are growing up, and when they do, some regret it. Remember it was a child that said “The king has no clothes on”.
In this world there are many things where adults are fools because they have lost their ability to say “but why?” and often they just accept what the system dishes out to them as facts. But kids question, kids are curios, kids give you an honest answer.
Yes, God wants his people to be mature, yet innocent.
In a verse somewhere it says that we should be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
There is nothing contradictory in this. It is simply to have the (good) qualities of both.
Just because you embrace one thing doesn't mean you have to let the other go. It is good to let good things remain in our character.
Hi t8
Yes the child in me always wants to shout “the emperor has no clothes” whenever I am in the company of religious folk!
Seriously, I think artists and scientists particularly benefit if they can achieve the qualities you describe.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 01 2007,17:55) Hi t8 Yes the child in me always wants to shout “the emperor has no clothes” whenever I am in the company of religious folk!
Seriously, I think artists and scientists particularly benefit if they can achieve the qualities you describe.
Stuart
I some time feel the same compulsion in the company of ardent evolutionists. I think mankind will, one day, look back at the adherents of that theory with the very same bemusement and incredulity that we look back at the flat-earthers of 500 years ago today. We will scratch our heads and wonder how people could be so gullible.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 01 2007,19:55) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 01 2007,17:55) Hi t8 Yes the child in me always wants to shout “the emperor has no clothes” whenever I am in the company of religious folk!
Seriously, I think artists and scientists particularly benefit if they can achieve the qualities you describe.
Stuart
I some time feel the same compulsion in the company of ardent evolutionists. I think mankind will, one day, look back at the adherents of that theory with the very same bemusement and incredulity that we look back at the flat-earthers of 500 years ago today. We will scratch our heads and wonder how people could be so gullible.
Undoubtably the theory of evolution will not be identical in detail to the current one. It will evolve!Are you saying, Is 1:18, that we should have no scientific theory of speciation at all?
Stuart
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 01 2007,19:55) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 01 2007,17:55) Hi t8 Yes the child in me always wants to shout “the emperor has no clothes” whenever I am in the company of religious folk!
Seriously, I think artists and scientists particularly benefit if they can achieve the qualities you describe.
Stuart
I some time feel the same compulsion in the company of ardent evolutionists. I think mankind will, one day, look back at the adherents of that theory with the very same bemusement and incredulity that we look back at the flat-earthers of 500 years ago today. We will scratch our heads and wonder how people could be so gullible.
Isa 1:18I think you are right.
Funny, there is still people that believe that Elvis is alive and that man did not walk of the moon!!!
Scientist have no Idea why the “Atom” even holds together.
“Scientifically” The universe should just cave in on itself.
The old saying is to believe that the creation is a result of just a big bang without design by a designer is like believeing that the Britanica is the result of an explosion in the print shop!
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 01 2007,17:55) Hi t8 Yes the child in me always wants to shout “the emperor has no clothes” whenever I am in the company of religious folk!
Seriously, I think artists and scientists particularly benefit if they can achieve the qualities you describe.
Stuart
I agree totally. It also applies to that religion called Evolution.
That belief requires some kind of faith.The biggest belief that I find the most difficult is, that if there is no God, then how did nothing make something in the beginning?
To me that could never happen and to believe that would mean that I could also believe that 1 million dollars could appear at of nothing. Kind of nice, but I won't hold my breath.
Stu;
Darwin who came up with the theory of evilution eventually abandoned the entire theory and gave his life to Christ. He just found that it was easier to believe the scriptures.
When I listen to evolutionists, it's apparent how willing man is to accept an excuse in lieu of the truth. Particularly, when an excuse is what they are seeking that's what they find.
So let me ask you Stu, what are you seeking? Aren't you tired of excuses for your existence?
In Christ is life and that more abundant? He that believeth in the name of the Son of God has eternal life.
Let's just assume for a moment that God is true, would you want to know him? If your answer is yes, ask him to reveal himself to you in the scriptures. You may find he is wisdom. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Take it upon you and learn of him. Mathew 11:29
Take Care
Steven
Hello Mr. Steve,
++”Darwin who came up with the theory of evilution eventually abandoned the entire theory and gave his life to Christ. He just found that it was easier to believe the scriptures.
That’s not true. Even if it was, it would not disprove evolution.
++”When I listen to evolutionists, it's apparent how willing man is to accept an excuse in lieu of the truth. Particularly, when an excuse is what they are seeking that's what they find. So let me ask you Stu, what are you seeking?
The truth.
++”Aren't you tired of excuses for your existence?
What??
++”In Christ is life and that more abundant? He that believeth in the name of the Son of God has eternal life.
What of those who rejoice in his judicial slaughter so they can be “saved”. What a nasty way to carry on! You might have a hard time convincing me that christianity is not a kind of death cult.
++”Let's just assume for a moment that God is true, would you want to know him? If your answer is yes, ask him to reveal himself to you in the scriptures.
The scriptures are wrong so often that I wouldn’t know which bits to rely on. If I assume they are all inspired, then the OT god is a quixotic homocidal maniac.
++”You may find he is wisdom. His yoke is easy and his burden is light.
And brain removal makes believing it all even easier.
I'd better mention Heb. 1:10. God made the heavens (whatever they are) with his hands, and the earth is mounted on some kind of foundation. have I got that right?
Mr. Steve you might like to visit t8's thread on evolution for that discussion, or “Why all the killing?” for many reasons why the OT god is unworshipable.
Stuart
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