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mr steve
These are you words..
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With respect to the pre-existence of Jesus as the Son of God, the scriptures are very clear. Three times in John 1, John the Baptist says that “he” (Jesus) is preferred before me because he (Jesus) was before me. Christ also said many times that he was from above and would go back to where he was before. If “he” does not refer to a person, what does it refer to? Jesus is not merely the word made flesh, Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us. Otherwise, if Christ was merely the word made flesh he could not have made any of the statements about having been with the Father and having seen God. John 6:46. Moreover, if he was merely the word made flesh than he was no different than us with the exception that he did not need to be born again because he knew no sin. That is not the case.Please answer my post…
Mr steve
You still didnt answer my question.
Sons are born. Sons have a beginning.
When you say “Jesus” was a son before he was born a Son, then you are saying Jesus was born again.
This would be in my opinion “Reincarnation”.
Please show me a scripture where Jesus is called the “Son of God' prior to his coming in the flesh.
Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Jesus was not born twice.
He was the Word that was with God and the Word that was God!
Mic 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.You say…
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If I make a declaration such as Christ is eternal and thereby deny his sonship, I dishonor Christ and dishonor the Father from whom he is begotten. If I made such a declaration I would be like unto you.Hear this my friend…”I believe Jesus is the Son of God”.
You have never heard me deny he is the son. It seems the Jesus I serve is not the same Jesus you serve, but that gives you no right to say I dishonor him and the Father.
Your statement is not only arrogant and ugly and condemning and full of pride, but is also a lie!
WJ;
Christ declared that he was with the Father before coming to the earth. He said he came down from heaven. He said what if you see the son of man ascend up to where he (Jesus) was before. It's crystal clear in the Gospel of John. You know the scriptures. If you would like to read them, read the gospel of John, or do a word search. I gave you three scriptures in the first chapter of John. Jesus states throughout the gospel that the Father sent him and that he was with the Father. He said he came not of his own will, but the will of him that sent him. A word does not have a will, but a person does have a will.
The truth can be very disturbing but it is nonetheless the truth. Christ own disciples were very disturbed hearing some of the things Christ taught. The apostle Paul could also be very disturbing. We are not called to tickle each other's ears. We show each other the truth in the word. If the truth rubs you the wrong way turn around.
Every trinitarian I know believes that the Son co-existed with the Father before coming to the earth. I contend that he did exist, just not eternally. Otherwise, he would not be a Son if he was never begotten by God. You are bringing to light a fact that I was not aware of – some trinitarians do not believe that Christ existed as the Son of God prior to coming to earth. If his beginning was only on earth he would have beginning of days so that cannot be. He is without beginning of days. Days refer to life on earth. Christ was with the Father before coming to the earth.
Here's the truth. Christ was begotten by the Father before coming to earth. He said he (Jesus) existed with the Father before the world was. John 17:5 Since Christ said God was his Father and existed prior to the world, then he was begotten by God before the world was. When you say that Christ eternally existed you deny his sonship because at some point in time a son is born. I'm speaking in general terms. I not saying just you WJ, I'm saying any person that believes that Christ eternally co-existed denies his sonship because the statement indicates he was not a Son, but an eternal being.
John 6:46 Jesus states he is the only one who has seen the Father. He declared many times his Father was in heaven. Christ could not have meant the Father who was with him in Spirit or the Father from the perspective of him residing in the Son because he told his disciples that if they saw him they had seen the Father. Consequently, he could have only meant the fact that he was in the bosom of the Father before coming to earth. The bosom is straight in front of the person between the arms.
Hear this, do you need me to site all the times you have posted on this site that Jesus is God. Your doctrine confuses the Son and the Father. God is not the author of confusion. Your declarations are abundant in this respect. You are the one that still must answer the fundamental questions I posted to you over and over such as, If Christ is the Son of God, how is he also God? You teach that Christ is God and equal with the Father. I believe that Christ is the Son of God, not God. The Father has made him Lord of heaven and earth, but he is still subject to his Father. Your problem with me is that I don't fit nicely into one of your little boxes. With all respect, I strongly believe that when a person believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and also God, the belief is contradictory and unbiblical. Where in the word does Jesus say he is eternal? He doesn't. I would honestly suggest inputting the phrase “Son of God” into a Strong's Concordance online word search. You will be stunned to see that Christ is referred to as the Son of God by angels, devils, disciples, unbelievers, those who crucified him, even God himself at Christ baptism. The proper identification of persons is critical, even within the Godhead.
Take care
Steven
mr steve
Listen my friend. Apparantly there is a missunderstanding as to what I believe.
I have posted over 3300 times on this board in 1 year.
You have never seen me ever deny the pre-existence of Jesus or the fact that he is the Son of God.
The confusion lies in the fact that I believe that Yeshua before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh and became the “Son of God” was YHWH, the Word that was with God and the Word that was God.
Or else John could have wrote…
Jn 1;1
In the beginning was the Son of God, and the Son of God was with God, and the Son of God was God.No scripture says Christ was a Son before he was born a Son. This is the miracle of incarnation. God was manifest in the flesh. Not re-incarnation!
Christ said he was with the Father and would return back to the Father. but he never said he was a Son before he was born into this world.
He is the “Eternal life” that John spoke of in 1 Jn 1:1-3 that was with the Father from the begining.
If he was the “Eternal life” then that means he never had beginning of life.
Paul speaks of Jesus as being in the “form” of God. Phil 2, before he took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
Paul also could have said he was the “Son of God” before he came in the flesh. But he didnt. There is lots of scriptural evidence Yeshua s the God of the Old Testament that appeared to Abraham and Moses and others. He was and is the “Image of God” and has always been with the Father from eternity.
Please try not accusing someone of their beliefs untill you know what they believe. Even then, statements that imply they are anti-Christ when they acknowledge and believe in Yeshua is worng.
IMO
Maybe this sight can help.
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm
Blessings!
mr steve
You said…
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If Christ is the Son of God, how is he also God? You teach that Christ is God and equal with the Father. I believe that Christ is the Son of God, not God. The Father has made him Lord of heaven and earth, but he is still subject to his Father.No offence to you but this is such a weak and fallacious argument.
Your father may be greater than you in rank but not in “Being”, and you are not the same person, however you are both 100% human.
Your Father is no greater than you ontologically.
The first book of our bible shows God is plural. Plurality of unity is found in all of creation which reveals the glory of God.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Hebrew word for God is 'elohiym’ which is a plural word.
Later in the chapter we read…
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Since we know that God has only one image and he has not shared that image with any other creature but man, for man is the one God has chosen to have dominion over all, then we know when he says above let us make man in our image and after our likeness that he couldn’t have been speaking to any other creature like angels.
We know that the image of the invisible God is Yeshua and the Father was speaking to Yeshua and the Holy Spirit who was moving over the face of the waters.
How many scriptures do we have to white out or change if we say Jesus is not God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
So what has changed?
Nothing from the very beginning. God has made it known to us and men have changed it.
You said…
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The proper identification of persons is critical, even within the Godhead.Absolutly, Thomas who once doubted, doubted no more, and Jesus nor John rebuked him for saying it.
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because *thou hast seen me*, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Some would say that Thomas was a doubter when he said this, but they miss the whole point…
Jesus said…because *thou hast seen me*, thou hast believed:
Thomas was not doubting any more!
Blessings!!!
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 28 2007,22:45) SO TELL US T8. Is it ok to worship a created being? What you are advocating is idolatry! Jesus was worshipped because He is God.
TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Jesus was begotten and he is worshipped/honoured as the son of God and the Lamb of God, but not as God.
That is what scripture shows us.I am not advocating that anyone worship a created being as God and never have.
It is you that advocates that the son of God be worhipped as God and you worship 3 as God, whereas I teach that we worship one as God.
T8,
Where in scripture are we explicitly warned about worshipping Yeshua “as God”? Which biblical writer cautions us against extolling Him too highly?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 20 2007,20:11) T8,
Where in scripture are we explicitly warned about worshipping Yeshua “as God”? Which biblical writer cautions us against extolling Him too highly?
There is also no caution as to worshipping Michael the Angel as God either or extolling him to highly. Where is it written that a woman shouldn't extol a man too highly?It quite simply doesn't need to because it is not relevant.
It is also not demonstrated anywhere that Jesus was worshiped as God. He was honoured and worshiped as the son of God and the Lamb of God. That is certainly demonstrated.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,04:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
You must be getting bored with the other threads
.Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,21:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
stuThen you dont think there is a human that you are a son too!
Does anybody ever consider that God was a title. God has been used for other Kings and Emperors before. Jesus did exist before the world began. Will give scriptures, but I want to say this first. Before He became Man there is no other name given to Him except that He was the Word in John 1. But that does not make Him equal with the Father. He came forth from the Father, He was not formed out of the dust of the earth like us Humans, before He became a man. Here are some scriptures that I believe are clear to me that He did existed before the beginning of all. But He did not always existed like the Father. He had a beginning.
Col. 1:15 Rev. 3:14, Prov. 8:22-30 Col. 1:16, Col. 1:18
I believe that Col. 1:18 is a very important scripture, it shows that He is the Head of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn form the dead; that in all things He might have the Preeminence . Preeminence means first in all.
So I asked those that do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus. What does that mean?
When you read in the James Moffatt version of the Bible it explains it so beautiful about what Jesus was to God before the world was created. Proverb 8 Please read it.Peace and Love Mrs.
WJ;
I would like to extend an apology to you for insulting your faith. God convicted me of veering from the path of teaching the faith to being as you stated, ugly, cruel, and arrogant. I actually lost sleep last night. I'm sorry. I was out of line. I ask you to forgive me for that and for all the other times that I have been unkind, unloving, and a legend in my own mind.
I perceive you love the Lord with all your heart, never think that I'm challenging your walk with God and faith in Christ. I hope you can forgive me. The Lord has shown me that I hurt people without realizing it and need to show more kindness and walk in love, not contentiousness.
On a brighter note, God has shown me that what is occurring here brother WJ can be very marvellous orovided its done in the right spirit. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be renewing fundamental truths that are necessary for understanding the gospel such as Christ was sent, Christ came down from heaven, and Christ is the Son of God.
When Christ said he was with the Father before, he refers to himself. So he himself was with the Father. Christ never referred to being born of God on earth because he was already the Son of God. He said he came down from heaven to do his father's will, not his own will. He didn't say he was born into the world to do his father's will. What you're are arguing is that Christ did not exist before the Virgin Mary. John the Baptist said he did. Jesus himself said he existed before Abraham.
Jesus said ye are from beneath, I am from above. Ye are of this world, I am not of this world. John 8:23 If I said to you I'm from New York where my father lives, too, and my father sent me down to Miami on business, would you interpret that to mean that I was the son of my father in New York? Or, would you say to yourself, He never said he was the son of his father, he just said his father lives there, too? Doesn't the statement “my father sent me” include the inherent fact that I must be his son. Otherwise, I could not claim that he was my father. So when Christ said he came down from heaven because his father sent him he must have been the Son of God in heaven.
Jesus said I know him because I am from him and he hath sent me. John 7:29 Jesus did not say that he was born of him in this scripture, but that he was “from” him.
Let's look at your argument. You believe the beginning of Christ as the Son of God was when he was born of the Virgin Mary.
Can you and I make any of the claims that Christ made such as: Father I desire to be with you in the glory that I had with you before the world was? John 17:5 I contend that if Christ was not a person as the Son of God, he did not exist. He refers to a person and Christ refers to God as his father.
Can you and I claim that we have seen God as Christ claimed? John 6:46
Can you and I claim that we are going to heaven where we were before? John 6:62
Can you and I claim to have existed before John the Baptist? John says three times he is preferred before me because he was before me.
Can you and I claim to have come from heaven above? John 3:31
Can you and I claim that we were sent from the Father above?
Jesus said the “he” was the bread of life that came down from heaven. Christ refers to himself as a person. He said the “he” came down from heaven so he must have been in heaven before coming to earth. He also said that he was with the Father in heaven and proceeded from the Father. Again, he could not refer to God as his Father if he were not his son.
You said that Jesus was the Word which was YHWH before becoming the Son of God. I submit to you, what you are stating is that Jesus the Son of God did not come down from heaven, but that he was the Word which was with God and was God came down from heaven. Essentially, what your statement says is that the Father came down from heaven, not that Jesus the Son of God came down from heaven because you state the beginning of the Son of God was when the Word was made flesh. This is inconsistent with the scriptures because Christ said repeatedly that the Father sent him down from heaven, thereby, establishing that he was with the Father in heaven as the Son of God and was under the authority of his Father. When Christ was born of God in heaven he was the Son of God at that point in time, whenever that was in eternity past. He never changed identities. He wasn't the Word, which is God, and then the Son of God. Jesus Christ has been the same since he was begotten by God – the Son of God.
In light of the above, you just posted me and stated, “You have never seen me ever deny the pre-existence of Jesus or the fact that he is the Son of God.” In your same post you state he was the Word, which was YHWH, and was not the Son of God until he took on the likeness of sinful flesh. Those two statement are polar opposite claims.
The scripture is very clear, the Word was God, not the Son of God, whom you state did not exist until the word was made flesh, yet at the same time state that you never have denied the pre-existence of Christ. Which one do you believe. You cannot claim both, each claim contradicts the other.
You are teaching that Christ changed identities. You are teaching He was the Word, which the scriptures say is God, not the Son of God, and then changed from the Word God to the Son of God. It just occurred to me you're also stating, albeit inadvertently, that God changed, you say Christ was the Word which is God and then became the Son of God. Wow.
Remember, I'm not questioning your love for God, just your beliefs.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 20 2007,23:18) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,04:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
You must be getting bored with the other threads.
KJ,As a fairly new member, you have demonstrated much patience and knowledge. Thank you for representing our Lord well (many are listening and learning – their salvation could be at hand….) Bless you as you keep seeking…. Hope you are here for a long time to come.
See you in a month or two,
Love,
MandyQuote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 21 2007,05:28) Does anybody ever consider that God was a title. God has been used for other Kings and Emperors before. Jesus did exist before the world began. Will give scriptures, but I want to say this first. Before He became Man there is no other name given to Him except that He was the Word in John 1. But that does not make Him equal with the Father. He came forth from the Father, He was not formed out of the dust of the earth like us Humans, before He became a man. Here are some scriptures that I believe are clear to me that He did existed before the beginning of all. But He did not always existed like the Father. He had a beginning. Col. 1:15 Rev. 3:14, Prov. 8:22-30 Col. 1:16, Col. 1:18
I believe that Col. 1:18 is a very important scripture, it shows that He is the Head of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn form the dead; that in all things He might have the Preeminence . Preeminence means first in all.
So I asked those that do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus. What does that mean?
When you read in the James Moffatt version of the Bible it explains it so beautiful about what Jesus was to God before the world was created. Proverb 8 Please read it.Peace and Love Mrs.
Thanks IM4Truth.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2007,05:04) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,21:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
stuThen you dont think there is a human that you are a son too!
Well, I've been asked more ridiculous questions in these forums. By the logic of some here, buses, houses and watches have parents too!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 21 2007,19:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2007,05:04) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,21:07) I don't think there is a god for Jesus to have been the son of. Hope this helps!
Stuart
stuThen you dont think there is a human that you are a son too!
Well, I've been asked more ridiculous questions in these forums. By the logic of some here, buses, houses and watches have parents too!Stuart
stuMaybe I miss understood you!
Plz clarify your statement.
WJ;
Every time that Christ says his Father sent him, he is declaring within the same statement that he was the Son of God at the time he was sent. He says where he came from- the Father which is in heaven who is his God.
Again, your declaration that he was the Word before coming to earth is incorrect because the Word is God. The Word bears witness in heaven and changes not, nor does God change. Your doctrine claims that Christ pre-existed as you claim, but in reality the doctrine denies that Christ existed with the Fathe as the Son of God.
With respect to the Father being greater than the Son. Jesus gives a long list statement showing how the Father is greater. I've submitted them to you many times.
Take care
Steven
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2007,11:42) Jesus was begotten and he is worshipped/honoured as the son of God and the Lamb of God, but not as God.
That is what scripture shows us.
Hello T8,
I was responding to this comment you made. It implies that there is a kind of worship/honour that is appropriate for YHWH and another kind that is appropriate for Yeshua. If that were true there would be good scriptural evidence for it. But where is it? I can give you two proof texts where Yeshua is shown to recieve the same worship and honour as the Father (Rev 5:13-14, John 5:23). What scripture can you give me to substantiate your position t8?
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