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Quote (Cult Buster @ April 14 2007,11:55) t8. My Bible says that everything was made by Him referring to Jesus.
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Hi marthinus
Immanuel God is with his children yet still not understanding knowledge; saved from sin by the seed that remainth in us
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; these things will not change! What God has done Eat of the knowledge for Good or evil Shame or rewardIsa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and [let] him [be] your fear, and [let] him [be] your dread.The Mothers and the fathers have not had knowledge to bring us up on Milk and honey leaving us hungry for our heritage of a peaceful land;
Isa 8:21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
The child shall break the power by refusing the thinking of the evil side of the Knowledge
Imanuauel Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.Follow Christ! who can rely on the mother and father for knowledge to follow good but find our selves driven to darkness
Isa 8:22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and [they shall be] driven to darkness.The Land is full of Knowledge used for evil Immanuel God is with us; covered as children in the family of regenerations forsaking the earthly carnal heritage to be born of God inheriting eternal Life; Those shall hear the voice of the Son of MAN from the grave
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Luk 14:25 ¶ And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
fury Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.And when Mary came his disciples said; your Mother has come; and Jesus forsakes his earthly heritage and said He who is born of God is my brother Mother and sister
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.Heritage of the Seed ended and (was not Joseph) but regenerations done by God himself who shall be the father of all reborn after christ the first friuts of them that slept
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on us.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 20:30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, [thou] Son of David.
Mat 20:31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, [thou] Son of David.
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mat 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
Mar 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 10:48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Luk 18:38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
Luk 18:39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The Nations are Un happy about giving reward to King David; for They would prefer there Christ to be made God and not made from DavidHi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal agency within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,00:20) Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal agency within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
If I had a business, say Ken's construction, and my business was to build homes. My son RCH built the homes for me. But when people talked about the homes they think of Ken not Ken's son, RCH. But when they speak of Ken's construction they are actually speaking of His Son also for it is RCH that does the work or sees that the work is done.So what if Ken decided to include his son in the company and named the company KenRCH. When people talked about KenRch's company they talked about Ken AND RCH.
Ken and his son RCH build homes even though Ken never picked up a hammer Ken created RCH who did build the homes.
God created everything through His Son. I don't understand what is so hard to understand.
Is RCH Ken? NO! Is Ken RCH? NO! But together they are KenRch's construction company.
KenRch builds homes. Who is KenRCH?
IHL,
Kenrch
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,00:20) Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal agency within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
CBExcellent points!
But you have to try to understand the Henotheistic and Arianistic thinking.
See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.
Even though the scriptures tell us that “BY” the word of his, (Yeshua's) power everyhing is upheld and “By” him all things consist.
There will be great judgment for those who do not “Honour the Son even as they Honour the Father” especially those who teach others not to honour the Son as the Father.
Blessings!
t8
You say…
Quote The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn't teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn't teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn't quote such a verse because it doesn't exist. In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So lets think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn't. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can't see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not?
Heb 1:10 explicitly shows that YHWY is the Creator of all things.
Is 1:18 picked this verse because in showing it speaks of Yeshua then the Henotheistic view of God that you hold is proven to be false, and shows that the Trinitarian view embraces the harmony of all scriptures.
Before I go further I would like to point out something.
T8. You claim that…
Quote
The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn't teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. . Yet you choose this one which doesn't teach the Trinity.You seem very confident that the Trinity is not found in scriptures but yet you don’t seem as confident that the text in question says what you want it to say.
For example you say…
Quote
He in the above verse must be God, or possibly the author. (I don't have time to check this as my reply is delayed enough as it is.)I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn't have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above.
OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I do not claim that all I say is true, but that I am a human who struggles with his sinful nature who desires to be perfect and so to that end, I am open to learning what others have to say and of course I am open to changing my mind.
Now as a reader am I supposed to have any confidence in what you say about Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 as being true?
Believe me I don’t.
This was an excellent effort though to muddy up the text and distort its true meaning.
I can’t speak for Is 1:18 but this is my take on your rebuttal.
Now to the truth.
You say…
Quote In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So let’s think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn't. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can't see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not? So let’s think about it for a moment. If Yeshua is not the actual Creator then who or what is he?
What part did he play in the Creation?
Could you describe what you think his role was?
Or why the writers chose to mention him in the creation if he had no active role or was just a vessel who the Father worked through?
Was he a puppet of the Father? Was he a Glove that the Father put on and created the universe? Was he a funnel that the Father just poured his power through?
For what purpose, and even a bigger question is “How” did God create “everything through him”?
Even if we look at it your way, what kind of being would it take to create the universe and even time through?
This is a play on a Greek word and you know it.
The Greek word is “Dia” and it can be interpreted to say “BY” or “Through”.
But let’s take your meaning “Through”.
Party 1 says, I am going to build a house”, so Party 1 has Party 2 a contractor build the house.
Party one says I built a house, so does that mean that party 2 didn’t build the house?
So party 1 built the house “through” party 2.
But by your logic party 2 had nothing to do with it he is just a funnel that God poured his power through.
So t8 if Yeshua is not the creator, then what was his role in the creation? Just an empty shell or vessel?
Jn 1:3
All things were made ”by” him; and **without him** was not any thing made that was made.Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Heb 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (Substance), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Since he is the exact representation of Gods essence and by or through him all things consist and all things are upheld by the Word of his power, then that means that by or through his own essence the creation was made.
Was Yeshua a builder or not t8?
Jesus gives us examples of his relationship with the Father and the Glory he shared before the words were.
Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, *and I work*.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Who but God could do this?)
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will sh
ew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.If all things was Yeshua’s while on the earth then he owned all things when the creation was made by him, for it was also created for him.
So as you can see by the above verses Yeshua was not just a puppet or an empty vessel that the Father worked through. Everything he saw the Father do he did himself including the creation. Is there any being in the Universe that can see all that the Father does and do it unless it is one equal to the Father in being? The answer to that question is no.
No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE in God.
You say…
Quote Now your choice of scripture is an interesting one because verse one starts off with “God” and talks about the son from God's perspective. So it is primarily focused on two identities.
1. God
2. the son.And it is focused on what God says and thinks about the son.
Actually t8 Heb 1 is focused on primarily one identity the Son with 2 commentators the Father and the writer of Hebrews.
Vs. 1 The writer says God in times past spoke…
Vs. 2 The writer says the Son speaks and owns all things, and by him the worlds were made… (Speaking of the Son)
Vs. 3 The writer says the Son is the exact replication of Gods substance and he (the Son) upholds all things by the word of his power… (Speaking of the son)
Vs. 4 The writer says the Son is better than the angels and obtained a more excellent name…(speaking of the son)
Vs. 5 The Father declares him to be his Begotten Son (speaking of the son)
Vs. 6 The Father commands the Angels to worship him (speaking of the son)
Vs. 7 The Father says he makes his Angels Spirits and Ministers a flame of fire
Vs. 8 The Father calls the Son “O God” and says his throne is forever (speaking of the son)
Vs. 9 The writer says that his God anoints him with the oil of gladness above his fellows (speaking of the Son)
Vs. 10 The writer quotes Pss 102, “And” thou Lord , in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth.
Vs. 11 The writer quotes Pss 102
Vs. 12 The writer quotes Pss 102
Vs. 13 The writer quotes Pss 110 (speaking of the Son)
Vs. 14 The writer speaking of the Angels
Now if you notice t8, every verse (excluding the proof text in question), except vs. 7 and the first and the last verse speaks of Yeshua.
Notice verse 8 and 9 before the proof text speaks of the Son and verse 13 after the proof text the verse speaks of the Son. Yet you want to say that Verses 10,11,12 is speaking of the Father. How do you figure especially when in vs. 8 the writer of the book of Hebrews quotes the Father calling Yeshua God, and yet you think the writer is saying that Lord in vs. 10 is the Father.
Look at the flow of the verses.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 *And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.The key word is “AND” thou Lord, following Yeshua being called God and being anointed above his fellows.
Heb 1: NIV
8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”Heb 1: NASB
8 But of the Son {He says,} “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?If you check all the translations the flow from verse 8 through verse 13 is unquestionably speaking of Yeshua.
And one last thing. You and NH especially take pride in pushing 1 Cor 8:6 as your foundational scripture for One God and One Lord, meaning the Father as God and Jesus as Lord (kurios), yet now all of sudden the word Lord doesn’t apply to Yeshua but to the Father.
The rest of your post is the same ole rhetoric how that Yeshua cannot be the God who he was with.
So I will answer your questions.
You say…
Quote
Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?I would say that it is the Father. In Hebrews it actually says “I will be a Father to him”. Who will be a Father to him? Well it is God/LORD who will be a Father to him.
I would say Yeshua since in verse 8 of Hebs the Father declares him God, and vs. 9 declares him to be anointed above his fellows and verse 13 he further exalts him until he makes his enemies his footstool. So the writer is plainly showing by David in Pss 102 that David is speaking to YHWH the Word/Yeshua.
You say…
Quote
Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.It appears to me that it is David (the writer of that Psalm) who is addressing God.
Yes it is David addressing YHWY/Yeshua, this is what the writer of the book of Hebrews is trying to establish by quoting David in reference to the Son,
The first chapter of Heb Speaks primarily of the Son and establishes his Identity. That is the point the writer was trying to get across.
You say…
Quote
Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because
He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]I don't think it is the Father addressing the son at all, if you are talking of Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD..,”.
LOL. You are now making a strong argument for the word Kurios to apply to the Father.Heb 1:10 is not the Father addressing the Son but a quote by the writer of Hebrews on Ps 102 which is David speaking to YHWH.
The writer of Hebrews couples these scriptures with verses 8,9 and 13 to show that David in Pss 102 is speaking of Yeshua/YHWH.
It’s plain and really doesn’t need much interpretation. Read the flow of the verses is their context without injecting you Henotheistic view and you will see that Yeshua which means YHWH is salvation is YHWH.
Then by this and many scriptures you see that Yeshua is the Creator.
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Since all things were created by him and he didn’t create himself. Then we have Creator and created.
Simple. A child can understand this.
Hi
Since I dont have editing rights. The following in my post above should be corrected from…
Quote
No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE in God.
To…“No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE God.”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,12:00) Hi Since I dont have editing rights. The following in my post above should be corrected from…
Quote
No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE in God.
To…“No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE God.”
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.Yes he is one with his Father King David; without root within you perish
1Jo 2:28 ¶ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear,(SON of MAN) we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
The Son of MAN BEING Son of the MAN King David
Mat 16:27 For the Son of MAN shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.You are blessed with editing writes with God to get this right; thats what counts in eternity
Here Meet the Son of a Man WJ To the Glory of King David
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Quote (charity @ April 17 2007,12:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,12:00) Hi Since I dont have editing rights. The following in my post above should be corrected from…
Quote
No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE in God.
To…“No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE God.”
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.Yes he is one with his Father King David; without root within you perish
1Jo 2:28 ¶ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear,(SON of MAN) we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
The Son of MAN BEING Son of the MAN King David
Mat 16:27 For the Son of MAN shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.You are blessed with editing writes with God to get this right; thats what counts in eternity
Here Meet the Son of a Man WJ To the Glory of King David
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
CharityVery nice scriptures.
But they do not say Yeshua is not God, neither do they imply it.
They do say he is the Son of man.
Which Trinitarians believe he was man, but he is also God in the flesh.
You should believe all the scriptures sis.
Hi W,
You say
“See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.”Is Christ just God in flesh?
If you say he is in what way do you say he is a being in his own right separate from God??
I acsend to my Father and my God Said The Son of Man
Get it WJ Gods up in the air waiting for Him to Arive and send the Renewed Holy Ghost Down;
What dose your spirit say to these scriptures? With father and God up stairs even christ as the messengerJhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Jhn 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her.
His Grace is enough for us
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,13:12) Hi W,
You say
“See to them when the scripures seem to indicate that it is the Word/God, YHWH, Yeshua that did something proving he is God, then the only thing they can resort to is Yeshua is just a puppet on a string or an empty vessel or a funnel “through” which the Father poured his power, because to them Yeshua has no substance or essence of his own.”Is Christ just God in flesh?
If you say he is in what way do you say he is a being in his own right separate from God??
NHHave you ever heard me say…
Quote If you say he is in what way do you say he is a being in his own right separate from God?? 
So w,
You see Jesus as rather a mask for God Himself?
So in Gethsemene he was struggling with his own will?Quote (charity @ April 17 2007,13:14) I acsend to my Father and my God Said The Son of Man
Get it WJ Gods up in the air waiting for Him to Arive and send the Renewed Holy Ghost Down;
What dose your spirit say to these scriptures? With father and God up stairs even christ as the messengerJhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Jhn 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her.
His Grace is enough for us
charityMaybe you could give me your interpretation of…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Phil 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,16:20) So w,
You see Jesus as rather a mask for God Himself?
So in Gethsemene he was struggling with his own will?
NHTrue he was a man which you would die defending his man hood.
I understand now why you believe the way you do.
You have to make Christ like yourself, for if he wasnt like you then you would see who you really are and you are afraid that you may not like that and would have to repent and be made like him.
Wasnt it in the Garden that Jesus also said *I AM* and the power of his words made them fall backwards?
Some day I pray you will see the Great “I AM” that was in the garden.
And you too will cry out my Lord and my God!
Hi W,
Not like you?
Are you not like Christ?
Are you not one with Christ-you cannot be if he is your God?
Neither can you follow God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,17:21) Hi W,
Not like you?
Are you not like Christ?
Are you not one with Christ-you cannot be if he is your God?
Neither can you follow God.
NHThere is a difference in me being made into his likeness than me creating an image in my head of Jesus being like me.
Have you arrived in his perfect likeness?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2007,06:18) t8 You say…
Quote The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn't teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn't teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn't quote such a verse because it doesn't exist. In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So lets think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn't. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can't see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not?
Heb 1:10 explicitly shows that YHWY is the Creator of all things.
Is 1:18 picked this verse because in showing it speaks of Yeshua then the Henotheistic view of God that you hold is proven to be false, and shows that the Trinitarian view embraces the harmony of all scriptures.
Before I go further I would like to point out something.
T8. You claim that…
Quote
The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn't teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. . Yet you choose this one which doesn't teach the Trinity.You seem very confident that the Trinity is not found in scriptures but yet you don’t seem as confident that the text in question says what you want it to say.
For example you say…
Quote
He in the above verse must be God, or possibly the author. (I don't have time to check this as my reply is delayed enough as it is.)I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn't have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above.
OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I do not claim that all I say is true, but that I am a human who struggles with his sinful nature who desires to be perfect and so to that end, I am open to learning what others have to say and of course I am open to changing my mind.
Now as a reader am I supposed to have any confidence in what you say about Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 as being true?
Believe me I don’t.
This was an excellent effort though to muddy up the text and distort its true meaning.
I can’t speak for Is 1:18 but this is my take on your rebuttal.
Now to the truth.
You say…
Quote In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So let’s think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn't. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can't see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not? So let’s think about it for a moment. If Yeshua is not the actual Creator then who or what is he?
What part did he play in the Creation?
Could you describe what you think his role was?
Or why the writers chose to mention him in the creation if he had no active role or was just a vessel who the Father worked through?
Was he a puppet of the Father? Was he a Glove that the Father put on and created the universe? Was he a funnel that the Father just poured his power through?
For what purpose, and even a bigger question is “How” did God create “everything through him”?
Even if we look at it your way, what kind of being would it take to create the universe and even time through?
This is a play on a Greek word and you know it.
The Greek word is “Dia” and it can be interpreted to say “BY” or “Through”.
But let’s take your meaning “Through”.
Party 1 says, I am going to build a house”, so Party 1 has Party 2 a contractor build the house.
Party one says I built a house, so does that mean that party 2 didn’t build the house?
So party 1 built the house “through” party 2.
But by your logic party 2 had nothing to do with it he is just a funnel that God poured his power through.
So t8 if Yeshua is not the creator, then what was his role in the creation? Just an empty shell or vessel?
Jn 1:3
All things were made ”by” him; and **without him** was not any thing made that was made.Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Heb 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (Substance), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Since he is the exact representation of Gods essence and by or through him all things consist and all things are upheld by the Word of his power, then that means that by or through his own essence the creation was made.
Was Yeshua a builder or not t8?
Jesus gives us examples of his relationship with the Father and the Glory he shared before the words were.
Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, *and I work*.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Who but God could do this?)
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.If all things was Yeshua’s while on the earth then he owned all things when the creation was made by him, for it was also created for him.
So as you can see by the above verses Yeshua was not just a puppet or an empty vessel that the Father worked through. Everything he saw the Father do he did himself including the creation. Is there any being in the Universe that can see all that the Father does and do it unless it is one equal to the Father in being? The answer to that question is no.
No Being could see and do all that the Father does other than God. It is true that Yeshua does nothing without the Father but the Father does nothing without him. This is their relationship because they are ONE in God.
You say…
Quote Now your choice of scripture is an interesting one because verse one starts off with “God” and talks about the son from God's perspective. So it is primarily focused on two identities.
1. God
2. the son.And it is focused on what God says and thinks about the son.
Actually t8 Heb 1 is focused on primarily one identity the Son with 2 commentators the Father and the writer of Hebrews.
Vs. 1 The writer says God in times past spoke…
Vs. 2 The writer says the Son speaks and owns all things, and by him the worlds were made… (Speaking of the Son)
Vs. 3 The writer says the Son is the exact replication of Gods substance and he (the Son) upholds all things by the word of his power… (Speaking of the son)
Vs. 4 The writer says the Son is better than the angels and obtained a more excellent name…(speaking of the son)
Vs. 5 The Father declares him to be his Begotten Son (speaking of the son)
Vs. 6 The Father commands the Angels to worship him (speaking of the son)
Vs. 7 The Father says he makes his Angels Spirits and Ministers a flame of fire
Vs. 8 The Father calls the Son “O God” and says his throne is forever (speaking of the son)
Vs. 9 The writer says that his God anoints him with the oil of gladness above his fellows (speaking of the Son)
Vs. 10 The writer quotes Pss 102, “And” thou Lord , in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth.
Vs. 11 The writer quotes Pss 102
Vs. 12 The writer quotes Pss 102
Vs. 13 The writer quotes Pss 110 (speaking of the Son)
Vs. 14 The writer speaking of the Angels
Now if you notice t8, every verse (excluding the proof text in question), except vs. 7 and the first and the last verse speaks of Yeshua.
Notice verse 8 and 9 before the proof text speaks of the Son and verse 13 after the proof text the verse speaks of the Son. Yet you want to say that Verses 10,11,12 is speaking of the Father. How do you figure especially when in vs. 8 the writer of the book of Hebrews quotes the Father calling Yeshua God, and yet you think the writer is saying that Lord in vs. 10 is the Father.
Look at the flow of the verses.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 *And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.The key word is “AND” thou Lord, following Yeshua being called God and being anointed above his fellows.
Heb 1: NIV
8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”Heb 1: NASB
8 But of the Son {He says,} “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?If you check all the translations the flow from verse 8 through verse 13 is unquestionably speaking of Yeshua.
And one last thing. You and NH especially take pride in pushing 1 Cor 8:6 as your foundational scripture for One God and One Lord, meaning the Father as God and Jesus as Lord (kurios), yet now all of sudden the word Lord doesn’t apply to Yeshua but to the Father.
The rest of your post is the same ole rhetoric how that Yeshua cannot be the God who he was with.
So I will answer your questions.
You say…
Quote
Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?I would say that it is the Father. In Hebrews it actually says “I will be a Father to him”. Who will be a Father to him? Well it is God/LORD who will be a Father to him.
I would say Yeshua since in verse 8 of Hebs the Father declares him God, and vs. 9 declares him to be anointed above his fellows and verse 13 he further exalts him until he makes his enemies his footstool. So the writer is plainly showing by David in Pss 102 that David is speaking to YHWH the Word/Yeshua.
You say…
Quote
Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.It appears to me that it is David (the writer of that Psalm) who is addressing God.
Yes it is David addressing YHWY/Yeshua, this is what the writer of the book of Hebrews is trying to establish by quoting David in reference to the Son,
The first chapter of Heb Speaks primarily of the Son and establishes his Identity. That is the point the writer was trying to get across.
You say…
Quote
Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]I don't think it is the Father addressing the son at all, if you are talking of Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD..,”.
LOL. You are now making a strong argument for the word Kurios to apply to the Father.Heb 1:10 is not the Father addressing the Son but a quote by the writer of Hebrews on Ps 102 which is David speaking to YHWH.
The writer of Hebrews couples these scriptures with verses 8,9 and 13 to show that David in Pss 102 is speaking of Yeshua/YHWH.
It’s plain and really doesn’t need much interpretation. Read the flow of the verses is their context without injecting you Henotheistic view and you will see that Yeshua which means YHWH is salvation is YHWH.
Then by this and many scriptures you see that Yeshua is the Creator.
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Since all things were created by him and he didn’t create himself. Then we have Creator and created.
Simple. A child can understand this.
That's a really well thought out post WJ, nice job! To be honest I have no idea why t8 was making all those excuses about the lack of time he had in doing his research, when less than a week beforehand I told him he could “take all the time he needed” to submit his rebuttal:From pg 26, t8's proof text #1, John 17:3 thread
Quote T8 feel free to take all the time you need to post you rebuttal. I'll be watching out for it. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2007,03:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,17:21) Hi W,
Not like you?
Are you not like Christ?
Are you not one with Christ-you cannot be if he is your God?
Neither can you follow God.
NHThere is a difference in me being made into his likeness than me creating an image in my head of Jesus being like me.
Have you arrived in his perfect likeness?
Hi W,
If you have been clothed in Christ and are being led by his Spirit and feeding on the Word then you may not realise it but you are being moulded to be an aspect of his body with a specific role on earth.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2007,14:07) t8 was making all those excuses about the lack of time he had in doing his research, when less than a week beforehand I told him he could “take all the time he needed” to submit his rebuttal:
Maybe you didn't read WorshippingJesus post(s) but he was throwing accusations at me regarding this time issue. I was simply pointing out the truth that some things in life have a greater priority than debating here.But he kept right on with it. This is why I spoke about it. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time with such trivia.
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