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Hi94,
That was one of God's lesser plans. The larger plan included ridding heaven and earth of sin. I do not think the Word was made greater by partaking of flesh but rather less. He became for a time even less than the angels and God used him and men reborn into him to fulfill His greater task of establishing a new kingdom of light, while shaming evil angels and expelling them from heaven. God did all this through Christ and by the use of puny men. Truly the weak is used in the power of God shame the strong. God's power shows up best in weak people.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,09:54) Hi94,
That was one of God's lesser plans. The larger plan included ridding heaven and earth of sin. I do not think the Word was made greater by partaking of flesh but rather less. He became for a time even less than the angels and God used him and men reborn into him to fulfill His greater task of establishing a new kingdom of light, while shaming evil angels and expelling them from heaven. God did all this through Christ and by the use of puny men. Truly the weak is used in the power of God shame the strong. God's power shows up best in weak people.
Hi Nick:What you say here is only accomplished by God through him.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Restoration of all things under God in heaven and on earth.1Cor 15
” 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,10:11) Hi 94,
Restoration of all things under God in heaven and on earth.1Cor 15
” 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Hi Nick:To this I can say, Amen!
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,08:44) Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,05:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:24) Hi KJ,
Are unspoken thoughts
WORDS??
When you think about anything, are they mere thoughts, or does everything not described by words? Here is but one description of Logos:Logos, the word, is the object of logic. An idea, in order to become the object of logical reasoning, in order to be subjected to the laws of logic, must be expressed in a word.
Try to think about anything without ascribing a word to the thought. If you think of a shape, you visualize the shape, but it is also, at least, subconsciously described in words.
HI KJ,
Convoluted justifications IMHO.
Simply read WORDs are expressed
Otherwise they remain thoughts and plans.God showed us the meaning
Is 45
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Christ (as the Word) did return to God – didn't he?God's word never returns to him without it accomplishing God's good purposes.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 01 2007,22:59) Kejonn Quote Now that I have laid that out, where in the OT would we see anything of a separation? Yahweh was Yahweh, His Word was a part of Him and went forth to carry out His works. Just in case you doubt Christ's preincarnate existence.
Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
“…goings forth….” means that Jesus was alive pre”incarnately”? Could it possibly mean something else? Such a small passage of scripture to base such a huge theory.Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,00:33) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2007,18:33) Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,16:01) And then he took the sins of the world upon himself, was forsaken by the One he had been with since before time began,
KJ,
Excellent post!Question: How was he “with” the One from the beginning?
The above quote makes it sound like the Word was somehow alive as a person?
I think what we all fail to understand is the Bible was written for us so that we may know God. What use is it if we as His children cannot understand it? People try their best to make it more complicated than it is but why are we so quick to forgetJohn14:26 – “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
But our problem lies in that we try to reason with our mind and we do not let the Spirit “teach us all things” because
1 Corinthians 1:21 – For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Anyway, we try to reason that “with” means there must be two parts. As I stated earlier, are your words — your intentions, thoughts, desires — not only with you but actually the sum of who you are? Without them we are all the same, and would be nothing but sacks of animated flesh. Again, we need to remember whose image we were made in, and that God wants us to understand Him.
But lest we forget, our words can also depart from us and do many things. People know us by our words. Would you know your loved ones if they were mindless machines whose “words” did not make them who they were? That is, those spoken and those than guide their actions?
We can also create with our words. Not like God who merely speaks things into existence, but do not words describe our ideas? When we picture something in our mind, isn't a word used to describe it? Many have said of Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation, etc. that the prophets who recorded speak in terms they understood at the time. In other words, they had words to describe what was seen, and they wrote what their mind could describe.
Was the Word “alive” as a person? Not anywhere I can see. He was the intention of God, the means by which God's actions were carried out. He went forth, did as God intended, and returned having carried out what was set out.
Jesus did the same. He was sent forth from God, he carried out God's intention, and he returned back to the Father. Yet this time it was different. What was the Word is no longer. The Word is now Jesus, the Lamb of God, the Son of God. Remember, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. As Jesus, he has become something that was not before: the direct intercessor for Man, being the union of God and Man.
Does God no longer have words anymore than? No, that would make God less than He is and we know that can never be. But again we must understand that God has to reveal matters in a way we can understand in our limited form. We have the Spirit but we cannot know all that God knows. John 1:1 is the way we find out that Jesus came directly from God and was of God. In other words, there was no separate God coming down and taking on flesh, but that which came directly from God Himself.
Think on a simple human level. What are our children before conception? Intentions, and therefore part of us. They came from us, they did not just “come to be”. By consummating with a mate, we bring forth that new life, just as Mary and the Holy Spirit brought forth THE new life.
You may try to argue otherwise, but even if you do not “intend” to have a child when you enter sexual relations with another (heterosexual, the other has its own intention), by the very desire and thus action, the potential is there.
Hope this helps.
Argue otherwise? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Have you read any of my posts? Have you read any of my theories on conception/birth and preexistence of Jesus?WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE, BROTHER! I'm writing in caps because I wish I could hug you and kiss you on both cheeks!
Yes, Amen brother. I agree wholeheartedly. Keep preaching and teaching.
When you referred to the “Word” as a “he” – that is where I thought you possibly had a preexistence message to bring. I understand where you are coming from now. Thanks for the post.
Check out the Conception thread when you have time….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,09:33) Hi KJ,
Can you show me any scripture where the use of word is not as expressed word?
Are there any where it is used in scripture as thought or plan?Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Not at the time I cannot. But I do want you to take a moment and reflect: how would we know the thoughts of anyone, much less God, unless they are revealed in words and actions? So how could anything be written about thoughts unless they were expressed? You question then is circular. You cannot know my thoughts unless I reveal them to you — how can you then record them until I do?This somewhat reminds me of those who defend homosexuality because Jesus did not speak on it. Who in 1st century Jewish society was going to ask Jesus about homosexuality already knowing God's view of it?
Anyway, do you not form your words in your mind before you express them, or do they flow out unabated? Surely you can see the simple logic in this…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,13:57) Hi KJ,
The Word was with God in the beginning.
As it should be, else God had no way to express Himself!!
Not3in1,
OK, I get it now. Its hard not to go back and forth between “he” and “it” when Jesus is on your mind. After all, he was “he” while with us, and remains “he” forever more from his earthly conception. Thanks for the clarification.
Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,14:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,13:57) Hi KJ,
The Word was with God in the beginning.
As it should be, else God had no way to express Himself!!
Hi KJ,
You said God did not express that Word, but he was only a thought or plan, till he was sent.
God loved the mongenes son He sent into the world.Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,14:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,09:33) Hi KJ,
Can you show me any scripture where the use of word is not as expressed word?
Are there any where it is used in scripture as thought or plan?Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Not at the time I cannot. But I do want you to take a moment and reflect: how would we know the thoughts of anyone, much less God, unless they are revealed in words and actions? So how could anything be written about thoughts unless they were expressed? You question then is circular. You cannot know my thoughts unless I reveal them to you — how can you then record them until I do?This somewhat reminds me of those who defend homosexuality because Jesus did not speak on it. Who in 1st century Jewish society was going to ask Jesus about homosexuality already knowing God's view of it?
Anyway, do you not form your words in your mind before you express them, or do they flow out unabated? Surely you can see the simple logic in this…
Hi KJ,
No I do not speak words in my mind before I speak them.
Do you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,14:18) Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,14:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,09:33) Hi KJ,
Can you show me any scripture where the use of word is not as expressed word?
Are there any where it is used in scripture as thought or plan?Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Not at the time I cannot. But I do want you to take a moment and reflect: how would we know the thoughts of anyone, much less God, unless they are revealed in words and actions? So how could anything be written about thoughts unless they were expressed? You question then is circular. You cannot know my thoughts unless I reveal them to you — how can you then record them until I do?This somewhat reminds me of those who defend homosexuality because Jesus did not speak on it. Who in 1st century Jewish society was going to ask Jesus about homosexuality already knowing God's view of it?
Anyway, do you not form your words in your mind before you express them, or do they flow out unabated? Surely you can see the simple logic in this…
Hi KJ,
No I do not speak words in my mind before I speak them.
Do you?
You don't think before you speak?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,14:18)
Hi KJ,
No I do not speak words in my mind before I speak them.
Do you?
Yes, its called “thinking before you speak”, and it happens almost instantaneously but it still takes form in the mind before it comes out of the mouth. If you don't think before you speak, you must get slapped alot.Nick, check this article out – Inner speech and conscious experience. Some highlights:
Some unfortunate people suffer from brain damage that selectively interrupts inner speech. Scott Moss, a psychologist who was victim of a stroke, lost the ability to use language.
He was able to recuperate and related his experience:
“I had lost the ability to converse with others … and to engage in self-talk. In other words, I did not have the ability to think about the future—to worry, to anticipate or perceive it—at least not with words. Thus for the first four or five weeks after hospitalization I simply existed.”
What this quotation suggests is that inner speech makes us aware of what we are experiencing. Moss, because he was unable to talk to himself about what was happening in his mind, “simply existed.” Surely he was feeling and perceiving things, but he was only vaguely—if at all—aware of his mental processes; furthermore, he was incapable of foresight.
In a paper that I just submitted for publication, I propose that inner speech is the main cognitive process leading to self-awareness. What would happen if you could not speak to yourself? That is, self-talk allows us to verbally identify and process information about our current mental experiences (e.g., emotions, thoughts, attitudes, goals, motives, sensations) and other personal characteristics such as personality traits, behavior, and appearance. At an even higher level, I suggest that our internal dialogue is also what makes us aware of our own existence: “I’m alive and well; I’m a unique person with an identity; I have goals, aspirations, and values.” Being conscious that you exist is not the same as “simply existing.”
The rest of the piece is interesting but I think you get the point from above.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,08:38) Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,09:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.
Is 1:18Yes, me to.
But I doubt there will be a response, seeing that there is no explanation for their Henotheistic views in light of the scriptures.
They have 2 masters and 2 lords. 'A greater being” and “a lessor being”.
They claim they are Monotheist, however their belief that there are “many gods”, betrays them.
Especially when they try to make our Lord into one of these “gods” that was with God and by whom they say God created all things through.
Clearly there is a deep black hole in their theology, since the scriptures proclaim that “God Alone” created all things.
They refused Jesus words also when he claimed to be the “I AM”.
There you go. God created everything Through Jesus. One God in Jesus and all who are born again. BTW where is the third person in this?
KI think you misunderstand me
Of course all things were made by or through Jesus.
Which is proof that Jesus is God!
For John in Jn 1:3 and Paul in Col 1 and the Hebrew writer in Heb 1 were strict montheistic Jews who new the Hebrew scriptures.
Do you think they would have recorded Jesus as the executer of creation according to Heb 1:10 knowing full well that only “God” created all things “By himself”.
Look for yourself…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that *maketh all things*; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,If you believe that God made all things through a “lessor being” or “a smaller god” or “another being” or “a thought or a plan” then you contradict the above Hebrew scriptures.
How do you explain this?
God is One.
As far as the Holy Spirit, you do believe that the Spirit was present in the creation dont you?
Gen 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
WJ,One Spirit in everything including Jesus.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Stephen kneeled down (not fell down) and prayed directly to Jesus.
Arianism is blasphemous. Repent!
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
The right hand of power is metaphor meaning that all authority belongs to Christ. That is all authority. Can you imagine the Godhead relinquishing all their authority to a created being? Of course not! Look what happened to Lucifer.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus is Yahweh God!
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
The Jehovah's Witnesses cult's own NWT bible proves that Jesus is Jehovah. It says in Isaiah 40:3 and I'm quoting from the NWT
“Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: 'Clear up the way of Jehovah, You people! Make the highway for our God through the desert plain straight,'”
Again, in the New World Translation (NWT) it says, speaking of John the Baptist's fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3
(Matt 3:3) “This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in the words: Listen Someone is crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of Jehovah, You people! Make his roads straight.'”
So who did John the Baptist prepare the way for? Obviously it was Jesus. So Jesus is Jehovah according to the JW's own bible.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not” John 1:5
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Compare
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
With
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
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