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Hi w,
You say
“Of course all things were made by or through Jesus.Which is proof that Jesus is God!”
Your facile dependance on logic is sad.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,08:38) Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,09:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.
Is 1:18Yes, me to.
But I doubt there will be a response, seeing that there is no explanation for their Henotheistic views in light of the scriptures.
They have 2 masters and 2 lords. 'A greater being” and “a lessor being”.
They claim they are Monotheist, however their belief that there are “many gods”, betrays them.
Especially when they try to make our Lord into one of these “gods” that was with God and by whom they say God created all things through.
Clearly there is a deep black hole in their theology, since the scriptures proclaim that “God Alone” created all things.
They refused Jesus words also when he claimed to be the “I AM”.
There you go. God created everything Through Jesus. One God in Jesus and all who are born again. BTW where is the third person in this?
KI think you misunderstand me
Of course all things were made by or through Jesus.
Which is proof that Jesus is God!
For John in Jn 1:3 and Paul in Col 1 and the Hebrew writer in Heb 1 were strict montheistic Jews who new the Hebrew scriptures.
Do you think they would have recorded Jesus as the executer of creation according to Heb 1:10 knowing full well that only “God” created all things “By himself”.
Look for yourself…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that *maketh all things*; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,If you believe that God made all things through a “lessor being” or “a smaller god” or “another being” or “a thought or a plan” then you contradict the above Hebrew scriptures.
How do you explain this?
God is One.
As far as the Holy Spirit, you do believe that the Spirit was present in the creation dont you?
Gen 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
NHHere let me help those reading understand what the follow comments made by you are in referrence to.
You say…
Quote
Hi w,You say
“Of course all things were made by or through Jesus.Which is proof that Jesus is God!”
Your facile dependance on logic is sad.
If it wasnt so serious it would be funny!
First, some apologies: I do not have time to read the whole thread, I have read several pages but saw circular arguments, and now I'm going to try to be plain as possible because reading some of these “spin” posts hurt my head
.As I've stated elsewhere, the largest issue I see with those who take up one side or other of the Trinity argument find it hard to leave their filters at the door. Its best to empty yourself, pray, and look for the simplest solutions. Otherwise, you end up more confused when all is done.
OK, first of all, you have to determine who Jesus was prior to his earthly birth. The most popular verse on this board will be used then:
John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Now, I need to ask you this: do most of you people believe God would want us to argue so much about one verse? Would God not want us to understand Him without debating back and forth? He does, if we try our best to not use our intellectual reasoning and the multitude of studies on the various potential Greek renderings of this verse. Therefore, take it for what it says and compare back to the Old Testament.
- In the beginning was the Word – simple enough, the Word was present in the beginning. Beginning of what? With the rest of the verse in mind, we'll assume since God in eternity.
- and the Word was with God – so many say separately, but are my words, whether thought or spoken, not with me at all times?
- and the Word was God – since God is spirit, He has no form, He is the invisible God, and His essence is basically His words, His thoughts, His intentions
Now that I have laid that out, where in the OT would we see anything of a separation? Yahweh was Yahweh, His Word was a part of Him and went forth to carry out His works.
Also, lets just look at some definitions of “word”, because there must be some reason for given Jesus' pre-earth existence such a moniker:
- A sound or a combination of sounds, or its representation in writing or printing, that symbolizes and communicates a meaning and may consist of a single morpheme or of a combination of morphemes.
- Something said; an utterance, remark, or comment
- An assurance or promise; sworn intention
Now let's look to Genesis 1, the creation story. I'm not going to list whole verses, but the most important part
3 – Then God said…
6 – Then God said…
9 – Then God said…
11 – Then God said…
14 – Then God said…
20 – Then God said…
24 – Then God said…
26 – Then God said…Is anyone getting a picture here? Why do you think that all of these “Then God said” verses were necessary when following verses repeated the action of creation? This just seems redundant when you don't pay attention. Well, I don't know about you, but when I speak, I use words and these words have an intention.
Are we seeing God's Word in action? If you can agree, then Hebrews 1:10 can be applied to the Word, who was with God and was God. It matters little if we read “by” or “through”.
Aha! So Yahweh and Yashua are one in the same then, right? I assert that they were inseparable until the point in which Jesus was conceived of Mary. The Word was God's promises, His intentions, the manner in which He carried out His actions.
Isaiah 55:11 – So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Remember, the Word was God, and no longer is. Before you argue about that, time to look ahead to John 1:18:
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word was, the Word became. And he returned to the Father when Jesus ascended back to Heaven, having succeeded in the matter for which he was sent; that is, the redemption of mankind.
Was…became…in other words, NO LONGER IS.
By taking on the form of Man and being the conception of the Holy Ghost and Mary, he became less than God, more than Man.
Philippians 2:6-7 – who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
The Word DID exist in the form of God at one point in life, but by taking on flesh, he emptied himself of this equality. His humanity limits what he was, and makes the sacrifice even greater because he has taken on a lesser existence to save mankind. And then he took the sins of the world upon himself, was forsaken by the One he had been with since before time began, and then died the cruel death of a shamed man.
Now we must view who Jesus is NOW, and not what he was to understand his role in the Heavens. Is he co-equal with God? How can he be if he has emptied himself? By taking on flesh, he became less than he was, but greater than any man. But there is no proof of his present equality with God. Even some of the verses in this thread prove it to be so:
Hebrews 1:1-4 – God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
What do we see here? What he once had before his conception on earth was gone forever. Yet, the Father granted him authority above any other besides Himself, because he had become Gods only begotten Son. The firstborn receives the inheritance.
If Jesus was always part of the “Godhead” as co-equal with God the Father — or God Himself — why must he “become” better than the angels by “inheriting” a more excellent name than they? Would he not already have that? And while better than angels, there is no indication that he equals the power and authority of God the Father.
Being from God and Man, Jesus takes his rightful place. We have already established that he is better than angels, but what of his humanity?
Psalm 8:4-6 – What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
If that is said of mere Man, how much more so will Jesus receive glory as Son of God, Son of Man?
And finally, who better who gain the final victory over Satan than a the only Son of Man and God? Was it not Satan in the form of the serpent who tempted Man to sin unto death?
At this point, I have little more to say.
Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,16:01) And then he took the sins of the world upon himself, was forsaken by the One he had been with since before time began,
KJ,
Excellent post!Question: How was he “with” the One from the beginning?
The above quote makes it sound like the Word was somehow alive as a person?
kejonn
You say…
Quote Remember, the Word was God, and no longer is. Before you argue about that, time to look ahead to John 1:18:
So God is no longer God?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2007,18:35) kejonn You say…
Quote Remember, the Word was God, and no longer is. Before you argue about that, time to look ahead to John 1:18:
So God is no longer God?
So God is no longer God, he is now just a man?kejonn
You also quote…
Quote
Hebrews 1:1-4 – God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.You forgot to highlight…
whom He appointed heir of all things, *through whom* also He made the world…
If Jesus is not God according to Jn 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:10 and 12 then you have a blatant contradiction to the Monotheistic Hebrews text…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens *alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; *and there is none else*.How do you explain this?
Kejonn
Quote Now that I have laid that out, where in the OT would we see anything of a separation? Yahweh was Yahweh, His Word was a part of Him and went forth to carry out His works. Just in case you doubt Christ's preincarnate existence.
Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2007,18:33) Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,16:01) And then he took the sins of the world upon himself, was forsaken by the One he had been with since before time began,
KJ,
Excellent post!Question: How was he “with” the One from the beginning?
The above quote makes it sound like the Word was somehow alive as a person?
I think what we all fail to understand is the Bible was written for us so that we may know God. What use is it if we as His children cannot understand it? People try their best to make it more complicated than it is but why are we so quick to forgetJohn14:26 – “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
But our problem lies in that we try to reason with our mind and we do not let the Spirit “teach us all things” because
1 Corinthians 1:21 – For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Anyway, we try to reason that “with” means there must be two parts. As I stated earlier, are your words — your intentions, thoughts, desires — not only with you but actually the sum of who you are? Without them we are all the same, and would be nothing but sacks of animated flesh. Again, we need to remember whose image we were made in, and that God wants us to understand Him.
But lest we forget, our words can also depart from us and do many things. People know us by our words. Would you know your loved ones if they were mindless machines whose “words” did not make them who they were? That is, those spoken and those than guide their actions?
We can also create with our words. Not like God who merely speaks things into existence, but do not words describe our ideas? When we picture something in our mind, isn't a word used to describe it? Many have said of Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation, etc. that the prophets who recorded speak in terms they understood at the time. In other words, they had words to describe what was seen, and they wrote what their mind could describe.
Was the Word “alive” as a person? Not anywhere I can see. He was the intention of God, the means by which God's actions were carried out. He went forth, did as God intended, and returned having carried out what was set out.
Jesus did the same. He was sent forth from God, he carried out God's intention, and he returned back to the Father. Yet this time it was different. What was the Word is no longer. The Word is now Jesus, the Lamb of God, the Son of God. Remember, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. As Jesus, he has become something that was not before: the direct intercessor for Man, being the union of God and Man.
Does God no longer have words anymore than? No, that would make God less than He is and we know that can never be. But again we must understand that God has to reveal matters in a way we can understand in our limited form. We have the Spirit but we cannot know all that God knows. John 1:1 is the way we find out that Jesus came directly from God and was of God. In other words, there was no separate God coming down and taking on flesh, but that which came directly from God Himself.
Think on a simple human level. What are our children before conception? Intentions, and therefore part of us. They came from us, they did not just “come to be”. By consummating with a mate, we bring forth that new life, just as Mary and the Holy Spirit brought forth THE new life.
You may try to argue otherwise, but even if you do not “intend” to have a child when you enter sexual relations with another (heterosexual, the other has its own intention), by the very desire and thus action, the potential is there.
Hope this helps.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2007,18:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2007,18:35) kejonn You say…
Quote Remember, the Word was God, and no longer is. Before you argue about that, time to look ahead to John 1:18:
So God is no longer God?
So God is no longer God, he is now just a man?
See my recent post. Think on a simple level because God wants us to approach Him in simplicity, with the mind of a child. What makes us who we are? We have our flesh, yes, but is that really who we are? No…many people are fooled by looking on the outside and making judgments about people.Rather, we are made up of our words. Our thoughts and intentions form who we are. Do you not know the people in your life by their behaviors and what they say? Do these behaviors and spoken words not come from the manner in which we think? When we think of something, do we not put words to those thoughts? If I think about what I will do today (Sunday in the US), do I not picture a place of worship, which brings up the word “church”? I know I will have to get ready so I think “shower” and “shave” and “dress”. Or thoughts make us who we are. Otherwise we are mindless automations. One mindless automation is no different from another other than perhaps the visual form it takes on.
God's words went out and carried out His will. Just as us, His words make up who He is, they are inseparable. But at one point in history, His words went forth and joined with Man to result in something new, something not seen before: Jesus Christ.
We want to automatically assume that the capitalization of the English rendering of Logos must mean either something separate or something the same, depending on what side we take. So you want to say “So God is no longer God”. No, read it all again, and understand what Word is. I've done my best to explain it the best my limited mind can. God's Word went forth and became something new. It was not God Himself, but His intention going forth to carry out His Will.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2007,18:43) kejonn You also quote…
Quote
Hebrews 1:1-4 – God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.You forgot to highlight…
whom He appointed heir of all things, *through whom* also He made the world…
If Jesus is not God according to Jn 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:10 and 12 then you have a blatant contradiction to the Monotheistic Hebrews text…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens *alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; *and there is none else*.How do you explain this?
Very, very easily. I already quoted it:Isaiah 55:11 – So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
God created everything via His Word. We want to automatically assume that the Word and God were either separate or the same, but in fact, the Word went forth to carry out God's Will. I think we get bogged down by believing that Logos means something more than it is.
God intended to send a Messiah. This thought, this intention, was with God in the beginning. God intentions and thoughts go forth and create as well, so Logos has always been there. In John 1:18, the intention of Messiah came about.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:24) Hi KJ,
Are unspoken thoughts
WORDS??
When you think about anything, are they mere thoughts, or does everything not described by words? Here is but one description of Logos:Logos, the word, is the object of logic. An idea, in order to become the object of logical reasoning, in order to be subjected to the laws of logic, must be expressed in a word.
Try to think about anything without ascribing a word to the thought. If you think of a shape, you visualize the shape, but it is also, at least, subconsciously described in words.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 01 2007,22:59) Kejonn Quote Now that I have laid that out, where in the OT would we see anything of a separation? Yahweh was Yahweh, His Word was a part of Him and went forth to carry out His works. Just in case you doubt Christ's preincarnate existence.
Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
All covered above, if you look. The Word was the means that all things were carried out, whether by or for.Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,05:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:24) Hi KJ,
Are unspoken thoughts
WORDS??
When you think about anything, are they mere thoughts, or does everything not described by words? Here is but one description of Logos:Logos, the word, is the object of logic. An idea, in order to become the object of logical reasoning, in order to be subjected to the laws of logic, must be expressed in a word.
Try to think about anything without ascribing a word to the thought. If you think of a shape, you visualize the shape, but it is also, at least, subconsciously described in words.
HI KJ,
Convoluted justifications IMHO.
Simply read WORDs are expressed
Otherwise they remain thoughts and plans.God showed us the meaning
Is 45
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,08:44) Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,05:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:24) Hi KJ,
Are unspoken thoughts
WORDS??
When you think about anything, are they mere thoughts, or does everything not described by words? Here is but one description of Logos:Logos, the word, is the object of logic. An idea, in order to become the object of logical reasoning, in order to be subjected to the laws of logic, must be expressed in a word.
Try to think about anything without ascribing a word to the thought. If you think of a shape, you visualize the shape, but it is also, at least, subconsciously described in words.
HI KJ,
Convoluted justifications IMHO.
Simply read WORDs are expressed
Otherwise they remain thoughts and plans.God showed us the meaning
Is 45
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Hi Nick:John 1:1 states: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (It does not say words. It says “Word”)
God Bless
Hi 94,
I showed the verse to explain that words are already expressed.
As was the Word.
He is not a thought or a plan-those things are not expressed yet.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,08:44) Quote (kejonn @ July 02 2007,05:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:24) Hi KJ,
Are unspoken thoughts
WORDS??
When you think about anything, are they mere thoughts, or does everything not described by words? Here is but one description of Logos:Logos, the word, is the object of logic. An idea, in order to become the object of logical reasoning, in order to be subjected to the laws of logic, must be expressed in a word.
Try to think about anything without ascribing a word to the thought. If you think of a shape, you visualize the shape, but it is also, at least, subconsciously described in words.
HI KJ,
Convoluted justifications IMHO.
Simply read WORDs are expressed
Otherwise they remain thoughts and plans.God showed us the meaning
Is 45
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
According to Strong's Dictionary, Logos:something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):–account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
You decide.
Hi KJ,
Can you show me any scripture where the use of word is not as expressed word?
Are there any where it is used in scripture as thought or plan?Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,09:12) Hi 94,
I showed the verse to explain that words are already expressed.
As was the Word.
He is not a thought or a plan-those things are not expressed yet.
Hi Nick:The plan of God was to make man in his own image. God made all things by “Him” who is the express image of God's person. He was perfected in this world, and God had foreseen all of this having created all that He created with this objective. He made every thing by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made.
God Bless
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