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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:56) Hi W,
You say
“God did not cease to be God neither did the nature of the Word change, he simply took on the likeness of sinfull flesh just like we “partake” of his divine nature.”So since he is alike to us and we do not become God then neither was he ever our God?
NHTake your Henotheistic glasses off.
“Partaking” of the divine nature and “Being” the divine nature is two different things.
Jesus is the “Express image of the invisible God”, “the exact representation of his substance”.
Are you?
Remember NH, there is the Creator and the Created.
You try to make Jesus into just one of the “sons of God”
He is the “Monogenes”, Unique, Son!
Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3 Col:1:16,17 Heb 1:3, 10.
Yoiu should raise your sights as to who this Jesus is that you claim to be your Lord and Master.
Remember, you can only have “One Lord and Master”!!!
There is Only “One God” And “Creator” of all things.
Selah
Hi W,
You must discern between your Father God and your Lord Jesus Christ,
You must discern between the Gardener and the Vine,
if you are a follower of Jesus.1Cor8
'6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.'Was Jesus not anointed by God and enabled to do miracles?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,07:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:47) Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.
Psst.God does have a body!
1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Word/God did not cease to be God.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.The Eternal Logos the Word that was with God and was God, did not die, 1Jn 1:1,2 But he offered up his body as a living sacrifice. The Body of God died.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the *church of God*, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hi W,
So God has a body,
as the Son of God?So immutable God came in the flesh
but always had a flesh body?Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
But you say God is flesh and blood?Ahhh! The magnifying follies of deviating from truth.
NHYou shall be judged for your mis representation and your false witness to my statements.
For no where have I said the “Father” has a physical body as the Son.
So have at it with your misrepresentation.
You do not please God by mis quoting and bearing false witness to my statements.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,07:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,07:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:47) Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.
Psst.God does have a body!
1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Word/God did not cease to be God.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.The Eternal Logos the Word that was with God and was God, did not die, 1Jn 1:1,2 But he offered up his body as a living sacrifice. The Body of God died.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the *church of God*, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hi W,
So God has a body,
as the Son of God?So immutable God came in the flesh
but always had a flesh body?Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
But you say God is flesh and blood?Ahhh! The magnifying follies of deviating from truth.
NHYou shall be judged for your mis representation and your false witness to my statements.
For no where have I said the “Father” has a physical body as the Son.
So have at it with your misrepresentation.
You do not please God by mis quoting and bearing false witness to my statements.
WJ, you cannot have it both ways – either Jesus is God or he is not. What Nick is saying is true. Jesus was flesh and bone. If Jesus was/is God, then God is flesh.Goodness how the man-made doctrine has so many holes in it's teaching, and yet they go on to defend it to the end.
The Trinity robs you of your heavenly family. It forces you to see things in scripture that conform to the teaching. The doctrine becomes the filter by which all scripture must pass. Because there simply cannot be another way to see it, right? You must not doubt – ever.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,07:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,07:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,07:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:47) Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.
Psst.God does have a body!
1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Word/God did not cease to be God.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.The Eternal Logos the Word that was with God and was God, did not die, 1Jn 1:1,2 But he offered up his body as a living sacrifice. The Body of God died.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the *church of God*, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hi W,
So God has a body,
as the Son of God?So immutable God came in the flesh
but always had a flesh body?Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
But you say God is flesh and blood?Ahhh! The magnifying follies of deviating from truth.
NHYou shall be judged for your mis representation and your false witness to my statements.
For no where have I said the “Father” has a physical body as the Son.
So have at it with your misrepresentation.
You do not please God by mis quoting and bearing false witness to my statements.
WJ, you cannot have it both ways – either Jesus is God or he is not. What Nick is saying is true. Jesus was flesh and bone. If Jesus was/is God, then God is flesh.Goodness how the man-made doctrine has so many holes in it's teaching, and yet they go on to defend it to the end.
The Trinity robs you of your heavenly family. It forces you to see things in scripture that conform to the teaching. The doctrine becomes the filter by which all scripture must pass. Because there simply cannot be another way to see it, right? You must not doubt – ever.
not3No. You cant have it both ways.
Either yo believe the scriptures or you dont.
The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…
“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
And what about these srcriptures…
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madeCol 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodilyPhi 2:6
Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodTit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega (Jesus speaking), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Mic 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Isa 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image,Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Joh 20:28,29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mar 2:28
herefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:Joh 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that G
od was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John didnt refute the statement of the Jews, in fact if John wasnt a trinitarian then he wouldnt have quoted them without denying their claim.)Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God”, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive myAparently you dont believe them for you dont accept them for what they say, but rather you approach the scriptures with a “Unitarian” view and say to yourself that these scriptures cannot mean what they say.
To WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
Distressing?It is even written that the sons of the most high are theos/elohim.
No distress to speak of WJ.
The term theos and elohim is not exclusive to YHWH, it can refer to the sons of the Most High, angels, Christ, the god of this age, and idols.
Your argument not only falls over here, but more importantly you ignore hundreds of scriptures that teach and demonstrate that the true God is the Father.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmEven the title son of God is self explanatory.
WJ, if false teaching were not a serious issue, your actions would be downright hilarious.
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2007,16:26) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
Distressing?It is even written that the sons of the most high are theos/elohim.
No distress to speak of WJ.
The term theos and elohim is not exclusive to YHWH, it can refer to the sons of the Most High, angels, Christ, the god of this age, and idols.
Your argument not only falls over here, but more importantly you ignore hundreds of scriptures that teach and demonstrate that the true God is the Father.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmEven the title son of God is self explanatory.
WJ, if false teaching were not a serious issue, your actions would be downright hilarious.
t8Theos and Elohim are not synonymous!
Meditate on this.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, exept 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
Now if you want to make Jesus just a man, well what can I say.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high in that day other than Yeshua.
It is disengenuous and simply wrong to say that John, Jesus, and Thomas meant anything but what he said.
I repeat…
The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…
“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
And what about these srcriptures…
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madeThere is no other example of “True Theos” found in NT Scriptures that is ascribed to any being other than the Father and the Son.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
Snor….This is getting old, WJ. Let's agree to disagree with the whole Thomas thing. You obviously don't see my point and I refuse to believe your deductions.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 20 2007,17:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
Snor….This is getting old, WJ. Let's agree to disagree with the whole Thomas thing. You obviously don't see my point and I refuse to believe your deductions.
not3Ah, I see.
Yours is a point. Mine is a deduction.
No, the deduction is on your part.
I believe the scriptures for what they say.
You are the one trying to change what John wrote and witnessed!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) Aparently you dont believe them for you dont accept them for what they say, but rather you approach the scriptures with a “Unitarian” view and say to yourself that these scriptures cannot mean what they say.
I see that you have done a lot of work to bring many scriptures to my attention. I would like some time to take a look at these and give you my thoughtful response. I will get back to these, OK. And thanks…..I do accept scripture, WJ. I just don't see things the same way you do – anymore. That doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong. A lot of times it means that scripture lends itself to more than one view. Otherwise, we would have one world-wide religion if things were so crystal clear.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,17:36) Ah, I see.
I do respect you, brother.The thing that I most enjoy about this board is that by arguing your point/view – you may find out that you are incorrect or missing a valid truth. I agrue with you because I believe I have truth. By arguing with you, I just might see that I am incorrect………
Have a good night, WJ. God bless you and yours! Chat with you later, OK?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 20 2007,17:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,17:36) Ah, I see.
I do respect you, brother.The thing that I most enjoy about this board is that by arguing your point/view – you may find out that you are incorrect or missing a valid truth. I agrue with you because I believe I have truth. By arguing with you, I just might see that I am incorrect………
Have a good night, WJ. God bless you and yours! Chat with you later, OK?
not3Goodnight!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,17:30) t8 Theos and Elohim are not synonymous!
Meditate on this.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, exept 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
Now if you want to make Jesus just a man, well what can I say.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
To WJ.Theos is often used when quoting Old Testament scriptures with the word 'elohim'.
E.g.,
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'This is a quote from:
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'So for starters here is a clear example of elohim and theos being attributed to men or sons of the Most High. So that alone shows that it is not used exclusively of God.
Here is elohim being used to describe angels:
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (elohim)!According to the NASB, the part of the New Testament where this is quoted is:
Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again (A)brings the firstborn into (B)the world, He says,
“LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”This may or may not be the case, but regardless of that outcome, elohim is translated as theos and it most certainly includes men or sons of the Most High God at the very least.
So as you can see these words are not exclusively talking about God.
As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men.
Here are 100 verses where God is used exclusively of the Father:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmIt would be interesting to do a side by side comparison of 'theos' describing Christ and 'theos' describing idols.
But 'theos' describing Christ side by side with describing the Father is no contest.
It is not as easy as theos being used exclusively of God and Jesus. You also have to add in man and possibly angels too. This may be a thorn in your side, but ignoring it won't make this fact go away.
Elohim is definately used for God, Jesus, men, and angels, as well as false gods and idols.
t8
Quote As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God(Theos).
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 22 2007,00:24) t8 Quote As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God(Theos).
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
I didn't know that the “God” referred to by Thomas was a “Theos.”Hmmmmmm…..
Well, that makes my theory even stronger, in my mind.
Thomas was shocked and amazed at see his Lord, he cried out, “My Lord….” and then lifted his head towards heaven, and with a thankful heart he praised God saying, “…and my God!”
Yep.
It could have happend that way. Sure enough! Most folks in the NT praised GOD (whom they knew as the Father only) for “giving” such power to a man (who is Jesus of the town of Nazareth).
Thomas loved Jesus his Lord.
Thomas loved his Father in heaven who is God.
Thomas thanked them *both.*Quote (Cult Buster @ June 22 2007,00:24) t8 Quote As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God(Theos).
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
Hi CB,
If you are in Christ then, as with him, the Father is your God.
Are you in Christ?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 22 2007,08:48) Quote (Cult Buster @ June 22 2007,00:24) t8 Quote As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God(Theos).
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
I didn't know that the “God” referred to by Thomas was a “Theos.”Hmmmmmm…..
Well, that makes my theory even stronger, in my mind.
Thomas was shocked and amazed at see his Lord, he cried out, “My Lord….” and then lifted his head towards heaven, and with a thankful heart he praised God saying, “…and my God!”
Yep.
It could have happend that way. Sure enough! Most folks in the NT praised GOD (whom they knew as the Father only) for “giving” such power to a man (who is Jesus of the town of Nazareth).
Thomas loved Jesus his Lord.
Thomas loved his Father in heaven who is God.
Thomas thanked them *both.*
Hi Not 3in1I heard that sort of stuff before from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
There's only one problem. The verses says that Thomas was speaking to Jesus. Look again!
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Question: What was Thomas saying unto Jesus?
Answer: My Lord and my God.Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi CB,
When you see Christ you also see the Father.
God was in him reconciling the world to himself.Quote (Cult Buster @ June 26 2007,00:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 22 2007,08:48) Quote (Cult Buster @ June 22 2007,00:24) t8 Quote As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God(Theos).
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
I didn't know that the “God” referred to by Thomas was a “Theos.”Hmmmmmm…..
Well, that makes my theory even stronger, in my mind.
Thomas was shocked and amazed at see his Lord, he cried out, “My Lord….” and then lifted his head towards heaven, and with a thankful heart he praised God saying, “…and my God!”
Yep.
It could have happend that way. Sure enough! Most folks in the NT praised GOD (whom they knew as the Father only) for “giving” such power to a man (who is Jesus of the town of Nazareth).
Thomas loved Jesus his Lord.
Thomas loved his Father in heaven who is God.
Thomas thanked them *both.*
Hi Not 3in1I heard that sort of stuff before from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
There's only one problem. The verses says that Thomas was speaking to Jesus. Look again!
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Question: What was Thomas saying unto Jesus?
Answer: My Lord and my God.Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Of course he was directing the conversation to Jesus, however, that still does not give me assurance that he did not gesture to God above. It is completely possible to be speaking with someone and gesture to another.My point here is this: The Thomas passage cannot be 100% proof positive that Thomas thought Jesus to be God.
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